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Old October 18, 2017, 09:56 AM   #76
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It is all made irrelevant by the professional, brutal predator who only telegraphs his intent when he strikes from ambush. The Tueller drill is a decent training tool, but if you know what is coming what benefit are you getting from it? Keep it in the context that it was originally developed for, giving you an articulable basis for action with a displayed weapon.

A lot of LE training is designed around the need to be able to articulate why you did this or that in response to a given stimulus.
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Old October 18, 2017, 10:48 AM   #77
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It is all made irrelevant by the professional, brutal predator who only telegraphs his intent when he strikes from ambush. The Tueller drill is a decent training tool, but if you know what is coming what benefit are you getting from it? Keep it in the context that it was originally developed for, giving you an articulable basis for action with a displayed weapon.

A lot of LE training is designed around the need to be able to articulate why you did this or that in response to a given stimulus.
Well you can't go around with your pistol drawn and pointing at everyone. It tends to be frowned upon in polite society.
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Old October 18, 2017, 01:45 PM   #78
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Less attention on how a "drill" can be configured to fool people in a training environment ...

... and perhaps more thought to how we might be less susceptible to being caught by surprise to the extent that we may never recover enough to catch up in identifying the nature of our attacker, and the actual manner & extent of the "threat", and where our "attacker" is in his own OODA Loop.

It's not just "draw speed" that matters (and it's actually a much less important criteria outside the classroom, and off the gaming range, than some folks might like to think).

Our first "reaction" is being sufficiently aware to be able to Observe & Orient, and then our training (including both knowledge and skillset) can help with the Decide part of things ... and then the circumstances involved, and our sustained skillset development, might help with the Act.

It's not just a matter of 'slapping leather' (or plastic), even though many folks who own shot timers might like to lean that way.

The speed at which someone can "cock" and prepare to initiate a punch, and the speed of the punch, itself, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be effective.

Gear possession is good. Familiarity and the ability to use the gear is better. Relying solely on the gear an using it, under optimal training and practice conditions, is perhaps less of a "predictor" of potential successful application than we might wish ... even if it makes us feel good about ourselves and having the gear.

Big picture, folks.
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Old October 18, 2017, 06:01 PM   #79
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Ranger Rich,

That was a very interesting video. Thanks for sharing. I think the first part was pretty implausible. He knew an attacker was running up on him from behind and was prepared to react as soon as he heard a noise. In the real world, it could just be a jogger running in your direction. You have to really assess the situation before you draw a gun and shoot someone. On the flip side, failure to react could quickly could mean you attacker would be on top of you before you could get a weapon out. The whole draw and shoot behind your back is pure fantasy for 99% of us.

Real world requires assessment time, especially if the noise is coming from behind. Based on the time to turn and draw, even a highly trained person (as shown in the video) would have a very hard time to draw from concealment and bring the gun into play. Even when he did, the momentum of the attacker could still mean he gets cut or stabbed. This is where having some martial arts training could give you some options. If the attacker has a short contact weapon like a knife, a well placed kick could stop him or slow him down enough to get a gun into play. I'm not saying I want to go hand to hand against someone with a knife, but it has already been shown that assessing, reacting, then drawing from concealment is darn near impossible. If all you have is a hammer, you're only looking for nails.

As for the drop to your back or the roll, I really like how it creates space and forces a change of direction for the attacker. We had better practice the roll extensively if we hope to have a chance in hell of pulling it off in a real attack.
Actually what we learned in that class was that we had to get off the X immediately. Kicking a charging attacker in the gut/chest/head looks great on TV or in the movies, but in real life it's pretty hard to do. Also, it really doesn't work well against attackers that are significantly larger than yourself. Simply put, their momentum magnifies a person's size/weight advantage, so a 150 lb. man collides with you with the energy of much larger man if he's running 10-15 mph at you. So even if you get a good kick in, their momentum might carry them through/on top of you anyway.

Anyway, the most important thing I/we learned was to get off the X quickly, though not necessarily immediately. That might give them time to adjust their line of attack and you're back where you started so to speak. But dropping back, rolling, even spinning or a headshake to one side-lunge the other way could create enough distance to either go for your gun/knife or even escape.

Another important lesson I learned from the exercise was that even in a drill situation, reacting quickly to a perceived attack is very difficult. The time lag between seeing a potential threat (odd-looking guy over there) to understanding that you are being attacked (guy charges at you drawing a knife/club/gun) and must defend yourself is longer than most people might imagine. Add in the time it takes to draw, and . . .

However, the Tueller drill as I understand it is supposed to only give us a baseline for minimum distance/time reaction to an attack. For myself, now that I'm almost 50, I find 21 ft. cutting it pretty darn fine.
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Old October 19, 2017, 11:21 AM   #80
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Rangerrich99,

I am in agreement with pretty much everything you said, but waiting to "get off the X" is also dangerous since you do not know your attackers reflexes or agility. While I am no longer in my prime, I trained for years in Tae Kwon Do and am a first degree black belt. That was my basis for saying anyone who is physically capable should learn some form of self defense.

A well placed powerful side kick or turning back kick will take most people off their feet, especially when combined with the additional momentum from the attacker. Legs are longer and more powerful than arm, giving you a reach advantage. Also with a well executed side kick, you lean away from the kick to counter balance, putting your torso away from the contact weapon. Martial arts is just another tool in the bag that gives you additional options. Just like shooting, it is a skill that needs to be practiced and constantly honed.

I just want to be clear that I am not saying it is a great idea to go hand to hand against an armed attacker. It may be the fastest option that buys you time to get your weapon into play. If you're not physically capable or willing to put in the time and energy to become competent with martial arts, stick with your strongest skills.
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Old October 19, 2017, 11:52 AM   #81
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The time lag between seeing a potential threat (odd-looking guy over there) to understanding that you are being attacked (guy charges at you drawing a knife/club/gun) and must defend yourself is longer than most people might imagine. Add in the time it takes to draw, and . . .
Yes! This thread concentrates on the "A" of the OODA loop; but even if you are slothlike, that is what? Four seconds max? So, if by diligent preparation you become the next Jelly Bryce, you can cycle through your OODA loop 3.74 seconds faster after spending a lifetime perfecting your draw. Spend a few hours working on boring non-gun skills that help speed your observation, orientation and decision making and you'll save a lot more time than 4 seconds with less effort.
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Old October 19, 2017, 01:07 PM   #82
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...reacting quickly to a perceived attack is very difficult. The time lag between seeing a potential threat (odd-looking guy over there) to understanding that you are being attacked (guy charges at you drawing a knife/club/gun) and must defend yourself is longer than most people might imagine. Add in the time it takes to draw, and . . .
Perhaps this was implied, but there is also the time that elapses before "seeing a potential threat".

If one has not yet noticed that "odd looking guy over there" when he (and perhaps his accomplices) starts moving into position, that much more of the fuse has burned down,

No one has eyes in the back of one's head, and likely no one with the gift of sight will employ Braille in doing things to help keep the eyes focussed on threat detection.

One needs to know and notice as much as possible about what is going on in the general area.

Bart has it right: concentrating solely on that segment of the timeline measured by draw speed only addresses a small part of the self defense process.
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Old October 22, 2017, 12:18 AM   #83
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speed draw par time...? from 7 to 10 yds whats an appropriate par time for drawing and firing a hit

Coming back to the original question and not pushing my understanding of what is a better parameter for good defensive skills, I found that with some practice most shooters are around 1.2 to 1.5 seconds from an open holster at 7 yards and hitting the A zone. Under 1.0 seconds is fast and under 0.8 seconds is getting into a competitive range. I would not classify it into beginners and intermediate but average, fast and really fast, since everybody has a different performance ceiling.

Doing the same from concealment is also depending on the kind of concealment, the typical open front 5.11 vest with a weighted pocket is completely different from a closed-front-shirt IWB draw.

Drawing speed and shooting skills are largely acquired skills that need training to be improved or even maintained, despite the fact that talent plays a big role here, too.

I have always been very competitive - and successful - in many different sports and have learnt the necessary training discipline that helps me to improve scores.
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Old October 23, 2017, 06:47 AM   #84
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Well you can't go around with your pistol drawn and pointing at everyone. It tends to be frowned upon in polite society.
How did you infer that from my statement? Looks like you are just Trolling.
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Old October 23, 2017, 06:53 AM   #85
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I am in agreement with pretty much everything you said, but waiting to "get off the X" is also dangerous since you do not know your attackers reflexes or agility.
What he is referring to by "getting off the X" us in LE call that "off-lining" or we used too when I was training cops. It means to move diagonally to the attackers line of attack. I don't care how good your reflexes are if you are running straight ahead it is difficult to quickly change directions with all that forward momentum. I am sure you were taught something similar in martial arts, I was.
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Old October 23, 2017, 02:20 PM   #86
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Gear possession is good. Familiarity and the ability to use the gear is better. Relying solely on the gear an using it, under optimal training and practice conditions, is perhaps less of a "predictor" of potential successful application than we might wish ... even if it makes us feel good about ourselves and having the gear.
And understanding our opponent is best. Looking for indicators ('tells') of their intentions puts one well ahead of the curve.

I hope you folks know there have been actual cases of people 'beating the drop'. They actually outdrew their opponent who had a gun already leveled at them.

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Old October 23, 2017, 09:14 PM   #87
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I've seen that in class. In a simulated robbery, the crook had a gun pointed at the victim. Said victim, drew and shot the crook. Victim was the instructor - he said that one 'trick' so to speak was to draw while the crook was talking as the time to disengage from your speech to react slowed down the bad guy. Close up, one could stop the draw if you focused on the hands. Scenario was a guy very close up who raised his shirt to show the gun to intimidate at about a foot away.
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Old October 23, 2017, 09:44 PM   #88
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I remember seeing Bob Munden in a exhibition did that kind of stunt.

Bill Jordan wrote about beating the drop. He said it defiantly could and had been done in real life.

It's not for everyone but someone who practices a lot and looks for the right indicators they can get inside another persons reflexes.

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Old October 23, 2017, 10:34 PM   #89
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Beating the drop...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

The video shows a few good tactics for beating the drop.
It also shows how stupid it is in most circumstances. Sure looked like that infant had a few rounds quite close.
Who robs a hotel anyways? Do people still pay cash for hotel rooms? Maybe it was a no-tell.

There is a video somewhere on youtube showing people who are shot when trying it.
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Old October 24, 2017, 10:03 AM   #90
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Drawing a gun is always a last resort, but to draw on someone who is point a gun at you is a most desperate strategy indeed.

Yeah, some folks may be able to do it, some of the time.

Why would anyone expect a shot scored under such circumstances to have a sufficiently immediate effect?
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Old October 24, 2017, 05:59 PM   #91
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Why would anyone expect a shot scored under such circumstances to have a sufficiently immediate effect?
And that is the best question in the whole thread. Most people hit with a handgun bullet (barring a CNS hit) show exactly ZERO reaction. After the hit some turn and run, some stay and fight. Neither one is an immediate stop.
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Old October 24, 2017, 08:28 PM   #92
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Why would anyone expect a shot scored under such circumstances to have a sufficiently immediate effect?
Why would anyone 'assume' they fired just one shot. You do know what the word assume means, right?

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Old October 24, 2017, 08:58 PM   #93
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Why would anyone 'assume' they fired just one shot.
One need not so assume.

The issue at hand is the likelihood that a defender shooting someone with gun in hand would be able to sufficiently disable an attacker timely.

I would rather bet on filling an inside straight with only two good cards in my hand.
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Old October 24, 2017, 11:39 PM   #94
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this conversation kinda reminds me of the movie The Quick and the Dead...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2VdvZLXyt4
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Old October 25, 2017, 12:13 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
And understanding our opponent is best. Looking for indicators ('tells') of their intentions puts one well ahead of the curve.

I hope you folks know there have been actual cases of people 'beating the drop'. They actually outdrew their opponent who had a gun already leveled at them.

Deaf
I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say "understanding our opponent". Unless you are being attacked by a known person, all you can do is make assumptions. This could be VERY dangerous as you could grossly underestimate his skill and reflexes. You are also assuming that you see the attacker before they start moving at you aggressively and that you have the time to "understand our opponent". In an ideal situation, you will see the potential threat from a distance. Life doesn't always work out that way. That is why it is important to practice drawing and getting on target quickly.

As for beating a drawn gun, yes it is possible. Is it worth the risk of getting shot and killed over a robbery? I personally don't think so. If it is an attempted abduction or it looks like things might go south regardless of compliance, then I would take the risk. This is obviously a personal choice and we have to decide based on the situation and our confidence in our skill level.

I believe having a few extra "tricks in the bag" could greatly improve your odds. As I've already mentioned, some hand to hand skills allow you to disarm your attacker, or injure him enough to grab your weapon. Looking for an opportunity or creating a distraction could also improve your odds. Maybe intentionally looking over the guy's shoulder could buy you a second if he turns to look. Someone could fake a heart attack or drop their wallet. Having good draw speed and practicing the draw from concealment is important, but consider some of the ideas listed above and add other ideas you guys might have.
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Old October 25, 2017, 03:08 PM   #96
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Unless you are being attacked by a known person, all you can do is make assumptions.
You need to take a few courses like those from SouthNarc or others that will explain to you what to look for (or like me spend 40+ years in the martial arts.) Most people telegraph their intentions. And with good practice you can learn to get inside their reaction time.

Quote:
Is it worth the risk of getting shot and killed over a robbery?
Depends a lot on what the robber says or how they act. Some will give indications they don't want any loose ends.

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Old October 27, 2017, 06:41 PM   #97
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Back on topic.

All I can say, is "Before you start considering speed of draw, & shooting, have you established a good skill set of very the thorough fundamental basic foundations of proper shooting techniques? This part always comes first. The speed part ALWAYS comes later. Whether you are learning how to become a plumber or a pistol shooter, take whatever time you need to do the job, safely, and properly. The speed part is guaranteed to come later. We won't all be world record shooting experts, but with time and training, we should just all do the best we can, with what God gave us, and the ancillary equipment (tools) we can choose to implement." I used an old Browning Hi Power in my last incident. It served me well. 1001 things raced through my mind, from, what or who is down range, to, can I just run away, to where can I move to find cover or get a better shot, to what will slow my attacker down, what will stop him, and ""I AM SCREWED UNLESS I MOVE"", to "now where can I move to get shots that won't kill the people down range". I got my gun back after the trial. I thanked God no one died, and that I was not the one on trial, and I pray it never ever happens again.

Last edited by Satchmoeddie; October 27, 2017 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Add a title & fix my falty typining
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