How common are crimped primer brass?

TruthTellers · November 10, 2017, 06:59 PM

I was priming cases the other day with my new RCBS Universal hand priming tool and ran into issues with the brass flying out when I tried to seat primers.

This happened with Federal and Fiochhi brass in .45 Colt and Fiochhi in .32 S&W Long.

I'm just guessing that it was something to do with crimped primer pockets because when I used Magtech .45 Colt brass and Starline .32 brass, I didn't have issues with the RCBS primer.

So, I'd like to know how common crimped primer pockets are and what brands of factory ammo use them?

I'm guessing that Starline doesn't use crimped primer pockets because I haven't had any issues with their brass.

RC20 · November 10, 2017, 07:05 PM

Not up on it but Starline is aftermarket only ?

Unless it comes out of a factory as loaded ammo it won't have a crimped pocket.

hdwhit · November 10, 2017, 07:14 PM

Crimped primers are generally found on military cartridges (or commercial cartridges made in facilities that also make military cartridges). The crimp is done to ensure the primer remains in place during cycling in semi-automatic weapons.

The crimp can be removed by either displacing the brass out of the way (swaging) or removing the crimp (reaming). Either way works perfectly well. Some people are squeamish about cutting brass from the case head (although the brass being removed ceased to be relevant to the structure of the case when the crimp was applied) and for them use of a swaging die would be recommended.

Not all primer seating problems are attributable to crimped primers. I am, for example, not familiar with any .45 Colt (which I take it you mean .45 Long Colt) being made with crimped cases. There may be, but I'm not aware of them. If you are having problems seating primers on non-crimped brass, carefully inspect the shell plate on the priming tool and the alignment of the ram with the primer pocket. Also, make sure you are using the ram and primer feed that match the size primers you are trying to install (i.e. large or small). If you continue to have problems with non-crimped brass, contact RCBS and let them walk you through trouble-shooting the Universal priming tool.

surveyor · November 10, 2017, 07:24 PM

more common on nato calibers starting off as loaded ammo.
I see it mainly on 223, and 308, but have seen it on some 9mm as well.

sometimes I have a little more issues with some brass than others depending on which brand primer and shell holder I'm using in a old style rcbs hand primer.

mainly referring to uncrimped brass.

generally if it starts to bind a little, I have noticed the primer does not go in square in the pocket, holding the case in one hand in the shell holder sometimes helps it.

TruthTellers · November 10, 2017, 09:32 PM

It may not even be crimped primer pockets, I'm just guessing it is. What's got me upset is that I bought this universal hand primer because it doesn't use a shellholder, yet had I got the one that requires using a shellholder would probably eliminate the issue.

I don't want to return this just yet though, but having to pull out my Lee ram prime and Lee hand press didn't instill me with much confidence in RCBS products.

**44 AMP** · November 11, 2017, 02:04 AM

"Universal" can be the equivalent of "one size fits all".

And, if you have any experience with "one size fits all" you realize that its really "one size fits all, but fits no one perfectly"

I don't have a universal primer, I use the one that takes shellholders, which I already have.

Commercial ammo rarely has crimped in primers. Its an extra step that costs money, so its only done on military rounds, where the contract calls for it.

Never ever heard of crimped primers on .45 Colt brass. .45ACP, yes, .45 Colt, no.

What brand of primers are you using?? There are tolerances, and some do run larger than others. Combine a large primer with a tight primer pocket and possibly a little bit of misalignment in a "universal" tool, that could explain your problem.

TruthTellers · November 11, 2017, 02:11 AM

^ CCI small and large pistol

hdwhit · November 11, 2017, 02:30 AM

Quote:

TruthTellers wrote:
I don't want to return this just yet though, but having to pull out my Lee ram prime and Lee hand press didn't instill me with much confidence in RCBS products.

I hate to speak ill of RCBS since the majority of my equipment is RCBS and they have held my hand through a lot of problems, but if you are still within the return period, I would return the one with the universal shell holder and get the one that requires a standard shell holder. This eliminates all potential problems of mis-matching seater stem and alignment with the primer pocket.

I use the old 1970's vintage RCBS priming tool (used standard shell holder and you put the primers in one at a time) and have no major problems. As it has aged, it has become a little more "fiddly" with needing adjustments to the seater stems, but it hasn't gotten annoying enough to make me want to switch it out for something newer.

hdwhit · November 11, 2017, 02:38 AM

If there is a question about whether the primer is crimped in place, look carefully at the case head. Look at the margins around the primer pocket. There are two methods for mechanically retaining a primer. One is crimping, the other is staking.

Crimping involves displacing some of the brass around the edge of the primer pocket into the primer pocket. This is done by a ram that slowly applies high pressure to the edges of the primer pocket and thus leaves a tell-tale ring of brass depressed slighly below the rest of the case head around the primer pocket.

Staking the primer involves having a ram with a number of needles pierce the case head and physically move a small amount of brass behind the primer.

Either type of primer retention will be immediately obvious. If you don't see either of these markings on the case head, then you can assume the difficulty seating the primer is attributable to something other than a crimped/staked primer.

TruthTellers · November 11, 2017, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdwhit

I hate to speak ill of RCBS since the majority of my equipment is RCBS and they have held my hand through a lot of problems, but if you are still within the return period, I would return the one with the universal shell holder and get the one that requires a standard shell holder. This eliminates all potential problems of mis-matching seater stem and alignment with the primer pocket.

I use the old 1970's vintage RCBS priming tool (used standard shell holder and you put the primers in one at a time) and have no major problems. As it has aged, it has become a little more "fiddly" with needing adjustments to the seater stems, but it hasn't gotten annoying enough to make me want to switch it out for something newer.

I bought it from MidwayUSA, so should I do the return through them or RCBS directly?

Jim Watson · November 11, 2017, 06:59 AM

I would return it to Midway if it just doesn't work. Only to RCBS if it is broken.

Crimped primer pockets would be very unusual in .45 C or .32 S&W but the .45 Colt has a narrow rim for the patent shellholder to grip.

dahermit · November 11, 2017, 07:08 AM

I have found at least one brand (Agilla?) of apparent commercial .38 Special cases in a bag of range pick-up brass that I have bought online. No military head-stamp just the cartridge designation (.38 SPL), and the brand name so, at least one maker is doing it for .38 Special.

jpx2rk · November 11, 2017, 08:52 AM

I have a RCBS universal hand primer but don't load for handguns, just 204 & 223. I have had some brass "spring" out or flip out when trying to seat a primer when using this RCBS tool. I take this act of kicking the brass out as a warning, something is not right with priming this particular piece of brass.
I've found I have to spin the brass case in the shell holder sometimes to "center" or align the primer pocket and primer a bit better and the primer will seat ok then. Crimped primer pockets can sometimes be a bit lopsided/out of round due to the crimp ring. You may need to remove a bit more of the crimp ring for smoother insertion of the primer.

reddog81 · November 11, 2017, 09:42 AM

You can buy the Lee priming tool and the whole set of shell holders for less than the RCBS priming tool. I'd return the RCBS and get something that uses a better retention system. Like others have mentioned - the brass isn't the problem here.

I'd start by emailing midwayUSA. See what they say and go from there.

mikld · November 11, 2017, 12:23 PM

Many cases have very little to none chamfer on the primer pocket mouth. Without much chamfer (tapered entryway into the pocket) the primer has to be aligned very closely or it will hang up on the pocket mouth. If the shell holder is a bit sloppy, this just adds to the problem. Try using a countersink or chamfer tool to put a slight break in the mouth of the pocket and see if that don't make it easier to seat the primers...

TruthTellers · November 11, 2017, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikld

Many cases have very little to none chamfer on the primer pocket mouth. Without much chamfer (tapered entryway into the pocket) the primer has to be aligned very closely or it will hang up on the pocket mouth. If the shell holder is a bit sloppy, this just adds to the problem. Try using a countersink or chamfer tool to put a slight break in the mouth of the pocket and see if that don't make it easier to seat the primers...

I'm not gonna put extra time into something that I shouldn't have to. The Lee ram prime worked fine with the same cases, no taper on the primer pocket needed.

I think I just overthought it and bought the wrong one. Should have got the non-universal.

Tsquared · November 11, 2017, 03:56 PM

About 15 years ago I bought a case of S&B NATO 9mm at a gun show. These were 124gr ball that were very hot and they had staked primers. The biggest reason for the purchase was to up my 9mm brass inventory.

They were a pain decapping as I went through 4 or 5 pins as they would mushroom at head. Once they were all decapped I had to run the pocket reamer through all before I could press in new primers. I have the Lyman case prep multi tool and it puts a nice chamfer and cleaned up the pockets.

I started sorting my brass 6 or 7 years ago when the Ammoland stepped cases came out. Those S&B cases are still running strong.

DukeConnor · November 11, 2017, 04:18 PM

Dillon super swage 600. Google it.

mikld · November 12, 2017, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

I'm not gonna put extra time into something that I shouldn't have to. The Lee ram prime worked fine with the same cases, no taper on the primer pocket needed.

I think I just overthought it and bought the wrong one. Should have got the non-universal.

If inspecting your brass and chamfering the primer pockets is too much work (takes less than 2 seconds), you can buy pre-primed brass...

T. O'Heir · November 12, 2017, 01:14 PM

"...but if you are still within the return period..." There is no "within the return period"
for RCBS kit. Their warrantee is forever. Even with used kit.
You won't find crimped primers on .32 S&W Long either. Never seen crimping on any commercial cartridge at all. Milsurp only. In any case, you can see the crimp if there is one.

November 10, 2017, 06:59 PM	#1
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,883	How common are crimped primer brass? I was priming cases the other day with my new RCBS Universal hand priming tool and ran into issues with the brass flying out when I tried to seat primers. This happened with Federal and Fiochhi brass in .45 Colt and Fiochhi in .32 S&W Long. I'm just guessing that it was something to do with crimped primer pockets because when I used Magtech .45 Colt brass and Starline .32 brass, I didn't have issues with the RCBS primer. So, I'd like to know how common crimped primer pockets are and what brands of factory ammo use them? I'm guessing that Starline doesn't use crimped primer pockets because I haven't had any issues with their brass. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

November 10, 2017, 07:05 PM	#2
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Not up on it but Starline is aftermarket only ? Unless it comes out of a factory as loaded ammo it won't have a crimped pocket. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

November 10, 2017, 09:32 PM	#5
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,883	It may not even be crimped primer pockets, I'm just guessing it is. What's got me upset is that I bought this universal hand primer because it doesn't use a shellholder, yet had I got the one that requires using a shellholder would probably eliminate the issue. I don't want to return this just yet though, but having to pull out my Lee ram prime and Lee hand press didn't instill me with much confidence in RCBS products. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

November 11, 2017, 02:04 AM	#6
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,812	"Universal" can be the equivalent of "one size fits all". And, if you have any experience with "one size fits all" you realize that its really "one size fits all, but fits no one perfectly" I don't have a universal primer, I use the one that takes shellholders, which I already have. Commercial ammo rarely has crimped in primers. Its an extra step that costs money, so its only done on military rounds, where the contract calls for it. Never ever heard of crimped primers on .45 Colt brass. .45ACP, yes, .45 Colt, no. What brand of primers are you using?? There are tolerances, and some do run larger than others. Combine a large primer with a tight primer pocket and possibly a little bit of misalignment in a "universal" tool, that could explain your problem. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 11, 2017, 02:11 AM	#7
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,883	^ CCI small and large pistol __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

November 10, 2017, 07:14 PM	#3
hdwhit Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2017 Posts: 1,011	Crimped primers are generally found on military cartridges (or commercial cartridges made in facilities that also make military cartridges). The crimp is done to ensure the primer remains in place during cycling in semi-automatic weapons. The crimp can be removed by either displacing the brass out of the way (swaging) or removing the crimp (reaming). Either way works perfectly well. Some people are squeamish about cutting brass from the case head (although the brass being removed ceased to be relevant to the structure of the case when the crimp was applied) and for them use of a swaging die would be recommended. Not all primer seating problems are attributable to crimped primers. I am, for example, not familiar with any .45 Colt (which I take it you mean .45 Long Colt) being made with crimped cases. There may be, but I'm not aware of them. If you are having problems seating primers on non-crimped brass, carefully inspect the shell plate on the priming tool and the alignment of the ram with the primer pocket. Also, make sure you are using the ram and primer feed that match the size primers you are trying to install (i.e. large or small). If you continue to have problems with non-crimped brass, contact RCBS and let them walk you through trouble-shooting the Universal priming tool.

November 10, 2017, 07:24 PM	#4
surveyor Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2007 Posts: 770	more common on nato calibers starting off as loaded ammo. I see it mainly on 223, and 308, but have seen it on some 9mm as well. sometimes I have a little more issues with some brass than others depending on which brand primer and shell holder I'm using in a old style rcbs hand primer. mainly referring to uncrimped brass. generally if it starts to bind a little, I have noticed the primer does not go in square in the pocket, holding the case in one hand in the shell holder sometimes helps it.

November 11, 2017, 02:38 AM	#9
hdwhit Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2017 Posts: 1,011	If there is a question about whether the primer is crimped in place, look carefully at the case head. Look at the margins around the primer pocket. There are two methods for mechanically retaining a primer. One is crimping, the other is staking. Crimping involves displacing some of the brass around the edge of the primer pocket into the primer pocket. This is done by a ram that slowly applies high pressure to the edges of the primer pocket and thus leaves a tell-tale ring of brass depressed slighly below the rest of the case head around the primer pocket. Staking the primer involves having a ram with a number of needles pierce the case head and physically move a small amount of brass behind the primer. Either type of primer retention will be immediately obvious. If you don't see either of these markings on the case head, then you can assume the difficulty seating the primer is attributable to something other than a crimped/staked primer.

November 11, 2017, 06:59 AM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I would return it to Midway if it just doesn't work. Only to RCBS if it is broken. Crimped primer pockets would be very unusual in .45 C or .32 S&W but the .45 Colt has a narrow rim for the patent shellholder to grip.

November 11, 2017, 07:08 AM	#12
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	I have found at least one brand (Agilla?) of apparent commercial .38 Special cases in a bag of range pick-up brass that I have bought online. No military head-stamp just the cartridge designation (.38 SPL), and the brand name so, at least one maker is doing it for .38 Special.

November 11, 2017, 08:52 AM	#13
jpx2rk Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2015 Posts: 387	I have a RCBS universal hand primer but don't load for handguns, just 204 & 223. I have had some brass "spring" out or flip out when trying to seat a primer when using this RCBS tool. I take this act of kicking the brass out as a warning, something is not right with priming this particular piece of brass. I've found I have to spin the brass case in the shell holder sometimes to "center" or align the primer pocket and primer a bit better and the primer will seat ok then. Crimped primer pockets can sometimes be a bit lopsided/out of round due to the crimp ring. You may need to remove a bit more of the crimp ring for smoother insertion of the primer.

November 11, 2017, 09:42 AM	#14
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	You can buy the Lee priming tool and the whole set of shell holders for less than the RCBS priming tool. I'd return the RCBS and get something that uses a better retention system. Like others have mentioned - the brass isn't the problem here. I'd start by emailing midwayUSA. See what they say and go from there.

November 11, 2017, 12:23 PM	#15
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Many cases have very little to none chamfer on the primer pocket mouth. Without much chamfer (tapered entryway into the pocket) the primer has to be aligned very closely or it will hang up on the pocket mouth. If the shell holder is a bit sloppy, this just adds to the problem. Try using a countersink or chamfer tool to put a slight break in the mouth of the pocket and see if that don't make it easier to seat the primers... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

November 11, 2017, 03:56 PM	#17
Tsquared Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Location: NE Atlanta Posts: 337	About 15 years ago I bought a case of S&B NATO 9mm at a gun show. These were 124gr ball that were very hot and they had staked primers. The biggest reason for the purchase was to up my 9mm brass inventory. They were a pain decapping as I went through 4 or 5 pins as they would mushroom at head. Once they were all decapped I had to run the pocket reamer through all before I could press in new primers. I have the Lyman case prep multi tool and it puts a nice chamfer and cleaned up the pockets. I started sorting my brass 6 or 7 years ago when the Ammoland stepped cases came out. Those S&B cases are still running strong.

November 11, 2017, 04:18 PM	#18
DukeConnor Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2016 Posts: 224	Dillon super swage 600. Google it.

November 12, 2017, 01:14 PM	#20
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...but if you are still within the return period..." There is no "within the return period" for RCBS kit. Their warrantee is forever. Even with used kit. You won't find crimped primers on .32 S&W Long either. Never seen crimping on any commercial cartridge at all. Milsurp only. In any case, you can see the crimp if there is one. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!