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Old September 3, 2018, 07:43 PM   #76
JohnKSa
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Quote:
so you think that the fastest person wins a gunfight?
That's not a very good summary of my post

1. I quoted Cooper who believed that there were three important components of handgun self-defense and I stated what those three things are.

2. I also stated that: "Speed is not the only thing that matters in a gunfight..."

The fact that I (along with Cooper and many others) believe that speed is one important component of handgun self-defense doesn't imply that speed is the only thing that is important. Nor does it mean that the fastest person always wins.

The fact is that there are a number of things (Cooper said 3, but I actually believe that there are more) that are critical to winning a gunfight.

Accuracy is important. No matter how good your equipment, how impressive your knowledge of tactics, how blinding your speed is, if you can't hit the target, you will be severely handicapped and may die in a gunfight as a result.

Speed is important. No matter how accurate you are, no matter how tactically brilliant you are, no matter how reliable your carry gun is, if you can't draw and score a solid hit before your opponent does, you will be handicapped and may lose the gunfight.

Tactics are important. No matter how fast you are or how accurate you are, if you stand still in the open in a gunfight against multiple opponents or even against a single opponent behind solid cover, the odds are against you. You need to know how to move, when to move, where to go, etc. For what it's worth, movement is not the only aspect of tactics--I just picked it as one example.

You can be super tactical, super fast, and super accurate but if your equipment doesn't work, you're at a tremendous disadvantage.

You can be the model of perfect tactics, an accuracy guru, have speed to rival Rob Leatham, be equipped sufficiently to cause a major gun manufacturer to have weapon envy and still lose if you aren't paying attention to what's going on around you until its too late.

And so on.

Anyone who tells you that speed isn't important, that you can ignore it and focus on everything else isn't helping you. Anyone who tells you that accuracy isn't important as long as you are fast and "tactical" is fooling you--and maybe themselves too. Anyone who tells you that only speed and accuracy matter and that you can ignore tactics, equipment, or situational awareness is misleading you.
Quote:
If you are weighing .7 this way or .7 that way...
0.7 seconds is enough time to shoot a couple of aimed shots. It's about half the normal time it takes a skilled person to draw from concealment. A person who is 0.7 seconds behind the curve had better hope they are up against a person who has chosen to ignore one or more of the important concepts in practical handgun use.
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Old September 4, 2018, 03:51 PM   #77
TunnelRat
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A lot of great points from John, imo. Strategy and tactics are obviously important, but in what are many cases ambush like defensive scenarios the ability to use those can be limited. Many gun fights are a few seconds long in total. The ability to react quickly and with deliberation is important, and those can be at least quantified to an extent with a timer. Timers don't just matter speed. Your skill level and efficiency factor into your overall time.

John mentioned a number of good uses for a timer. I would say I personally use one to see if I am maintaining the skill level I've had in the past, as well as compare my "cold" performance to that I've achieved at the end of two back to back days of training. For instance, I can draw from concealment and get a good hit to the upper thorax in 1.3 seconds at 3 yds, but that goes to 1.6 seconds when I'm at 10 yds as the distance requires better sight alignment for an equivalent hit (and shooting reflexively comes into play here). I know that doing this cold typically can add 0.1-0.15 seconds to my time. I know that drawing from concealment adds about 0.2-0.3 seconds to my time as opposed to no cover garment. I know that if I really rush it I can save maybe another 0.1 seconds, but my tendency to fumble getting the garment out of the way also goes up.

Some might argue what benefit I get from this info. The benefit to me is trying different techniques or running different drills and seeing the impact on my time. I have found that sometimes a bit more deliberation can feel much slower and really not be much slower at all. If I didn't have the timer to quantify this my normal impressions might well lead me to wrong conclusions, and I find this true once at a certain performance level.

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Last edited by TunnelRat; September 4, 2018 at 03:56 PM.
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Old September 5, 2018, 09:26 AM   #78
FireForged
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Quote:
That's not a very good summary of my post

1. I quoted Cooper who believed that there were three important components of handgun self-defense and I stated what those three things are.

2. I also stated that: "Speed is not the only thing that matters in a gunfight..."

The fact that I (along with Cooper and many others) believe that speed is one important component of handgun self-defense doesn't imply that speed is the only thing that is important. Nor does it mean that the fastest person always wins.

The fact is that there are a number of things (Cooper said 3, but I actually believe that there are more) that are critical to winning a gunfight.

Accuracy is important. No matter how good your equipment, how impressive your knowledge of tactics, how blinding your speed is, if you can't hit the target, you will be severely handicapped and may die in a gunfight as a result.

Speed is important. No matter how accurate you are, no matter how tactically brilliant you are, no matter how reliable your carry gun is, if you can't draw and score a solid hit before your opponent does, you will be handicapped and may lose the gunfight.

Tactics are important. No matter how fast you are or how accurate you are, if you stand still in the open in a gunfight against multiple opponents or even against a single opponent behind solid cover, the odds are against you. You need to know how to move, when to move, where to go, etc. For what it's worth, movement is not the only aspect of tactics--I just picked it as one example.

You can be super tactical, super fast, and super accurate but if your equipment doesn't work, you're at a tremendous disadvantage.

You can be the model of perfect tactics, an accuracy guru, have speed to rival Rob Leatham, be equipped sufficiently to cause a major gun manufacturer to have weapon envy and still lose if you aren't paying attention to what's going on around you until its too late.

I concede that you make a very reasonable point
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Old September 5, 2018, 07:03 PM   #79
pete2
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Timers are for the games we play, IDPA etc. Just like counting rounds fired and saving empty magazines.
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Old September 20, 2018, 04:36 PM   #80
wichaka
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I use a timer to gauge students on basic skills...draw, multiple rounds on target etc. For the draw and placing 3-5 rounds on target, will let a person know approx how far away a threat can be and still respond accurately. ie, Tueller drill.

Where I don't use it, is where competition uses it...scenarios/stages.
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Old September 22, 2018, 07:28 AM   #81
JohnKSa
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I've been thinking about this and it occurred to me that everything that has been said about timers could be said about measuring accuracy via conventional methods.

Imagine a world where it is difficult to measure accuracy and special equipment is required to do it with any reasonable level of precision. However, in that world, imagine it is very simple and cheap to measure shooting related time intervals. Anyone can do it with no special equipment and to very high accuracy.

It stands to reason that in our hypothetical world, people would have started off measuring time very precisely while accuracy was measured much less precisely and only subjectively. Then, later, when accuracy measuring equipment became widely available, they would have also begun measuring accuracy objectively and with good precision.

In that world, this discussion would still be happening, but it would be about accuracy measurement equipment, not shot timers. And everyone would be talking about how measuring accuracy precisely and objectively is only about games and stages and scenarios; that it's sufficient to measure accuracy subjectively and with no significant precision because there's no time to use accuracy measuring equipment in a gunfight.
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Old October 6, 2018, 11:44 AM   #82
Rob Pincus
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Great to see this discussion here at my old online "home"...


Glad you guys are getting something from the Worlds Collide Series!

-RJP
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