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November 9, 2018, 10:48 PM | #26 |
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My father served for 5 years in WW2. He saw the horror of war. It is men like Askins who are the reason for much of the horror. It is not a different world and there is nothing new under the sun. War has always been a barbaric practice and always will be. Rationalization of evil in return for evil is not new either.
No amount of killing will undo the killing of 6 million Jews or 25 million Russians or 20 million Chinese or 500,000 Brits or 450,000 Americans. Nearly 60 million people worldwide. How many Germans would be enough? You can spin it any way you want but Askins cold blooded killing was not an act of war.
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November 9, 2018, 10:50 PM | #27 |
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What was the prisoner doing again? Oh that's right, Sabotage... during WW2.... with a ball peen hammer. He was disabling captured vehicles so that the Allies couldn't use them. Yes, perhaps a golden 230 grain ball from Askins pistol was too harsh. You guys may be right! Teachable moment here; Perhaps give him extra rations and a stern lecture... that might teach him a lesson and send a message to the rest of those captured Nazi Troops. Or give him a camel no filter and share some music and laughter. Perhaps it wasn't sabotage, perhaps the big burly German was just upset and needed to vent, as there was no safe space in the encampment and he wasn't feeling safe? Yes, Askins was far too harsh and I shouldn't try to defend him, as it's not PC.
We don't even know if it actually happened... writers are known to embellish. What's that saying... "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"? Last edited by shurshot; November 9, 2018 at 11:00 PM. |
November 9, 2018, 11:00 PM | #28 |
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If you can't understand the difference in punishing a saboteur, by execution if warranted, and what Askins did there really is not any point in talking about this. And you're right, defending the actions of a psychopath is neither politically nor morally correct.
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November 10, 2018, 09:36 AM | #29 | |
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Prisoner's of War are deemed 'non combatants' after being captured, essentially 'civilians' and anybody shooting/killing them without due process, like this guy supposedly did, could have resulted in him being tried for murder.
Same for somebody being captured..and then a POW. If that person, then kills somebody, like a guard, technically, they could be tried for murder. I know 'murder' during total war is pretty ironic but that's what the Geneva Accords talk about. Quote:
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November 10, 2018, 11:35 AM | #30 | |
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How many were prosecuted for Vietnam “helicopter interrogations”? Or Iraqi “table interrogations” during Desert Storm? Or ... I believe the correct answer is Zero.
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November 10, 2018, 01:05 PM | #31 | ||||
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Acts of resistance such as smashing the distributors on their surrendered unarmed vehicles is not a crime nor should it have been unexpected either. In fact they have a duty to continue non-lethal resistance. Quote:
https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/pr...ers-1828296348 What those Germans did was perfectly legal and they did not deserve to be murdered for it. |
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November 10, 2018, 03:26 PM | #32 | |||
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Yes, john, it was askins and that was the circumstance, somehow, my memory has started feeding me a few defective facts lately. I guess that my memory just turned 58 and it is mocking me.
I almost wish that I hadn't brought it up. Frankly, I also believe that the guy was bug nuts crazy, that he wasn't at all the kind of guy who I want handling law enforcement in any place other than the worst possible hells. From wikipedia: Quote:
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Dissemble all that you want to, guys, askins was not a good man. He did terrible things, no matter what excuse there is for it, there are no justifications for some of the things that he did. If massad calls him a stone killer, and infers that he is also a loon, there really isn't any better authority IMO. Dillinger did the same thing.
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November 10, 2018, 06:32 PM | #33 |
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I did not know all this about Askins. I guess I was not looking for it as I read old gun rag articles.
Its not like I was in his fan club.....It was sad to find out the dark side of Cosby,too. If a US GI POW was disabling captured jeeps or deuce and a halfs,we'd consider him a hero,and we'd be outraged at his murder. At the same time,we might have expected murder from our enemies at the time. Confronting evil is why we were at war. We can't do that by practicing evil. That settled,(to my satisfaction) the OP's question ,IMO,is about something other than Askins character (I hope). A while back,here on TFL was a video of a man in line in a convenience store counting the money in his wallet.A man behind him slapped the wallet out of his hands and picked it up. The victim resisted,and was savagely ,and potentially fatally beaten. While,in this case,the victim was helpless, In that situation,or if a mountain lion was on my back with my head in his mouth,if I could choose a good gun to get my hand on,it might be the 44 SPL Taurus snubby I used to have,or even a pocket J frame S+W.Even a Charter Bulldog. And instinctively pressing the muzzle against whatever was killing me and pulling the trigger might be the best plan I had. There isn't time to really overthink it in the situation. And doing it immediately,while in close contact ight be better than waiting for some distance. I would guess a muzzle contact shot from a snubby might be a really effective way to get some distance. |
November 10, 2018, 09:17 PM | #34 |
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In case it was a question, I don't think that their is a good close contact weapon unless it would be a hammerless or shrouded revolver.
Close in and contact explicitly involves probable interference with a hammer, a slide, other possible things, even your own clothes and fingers can interfere. Even the revolver cylinder might snag on a bit of cloth, or even be grabbed. Can't fire a revolver if it doesn't revolve, right? In a grapple a good knife with rubber grip and at least a nominal hilt seems to be a worthwhile addition.
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November 11, 2018, 07:57 AM | #35 |
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A prisoners duty, whether US or German, is to escape and also continue efforts to hurt the opposing sides ability to continue fighting.
The action described in the story is not simply illegal but also immoral.
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November 11, 2018, 08:49 AM | #36 | |
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There's a sea story about a aviator shot down over South VietNam..captured..killed his captor/guard, swam out to the helo for a rescue..he was rotated back to the US, not to participate in this conflict any longer, as he technically committed 'murder'..of course he wasn't prosecuted but...
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November 11, 2018, 10:37 AM | #37 | ||||
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Last edited by Rachen; November 11, 2018 at 10:46 AM. |
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November 11, 2018, 11:47 AM | #38 | |
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To answer the OP question, there is NO such thing as "too close", because in many SD situations, it is the perp who chose to victimize you at that point in time, whether it is a robbery, or kidnapping, rape or attempted murder, and he/she may come in real close to you, or stay some distance back and use a baseball bat or other type of weapon. Bottom line is, we did not choose this battleground. Someone else chose for us and it is up to us to respond using the right equipment, if we want to make it out there in one piece. Personally speaking, once a situation turns into a contact range fight, a firearm is pretty much out of the question. For one main reason. Remember what we have been taught in basic gun safety and maintenance regarding BORE OBSTRUCTIONS? A fragment of wadding remaining in a barrel have destroyed many a fine hunting rifle and injured their operators. Now in an SD situation, the perp's body would have become a bore obstruction. There is simply no telling just what will happen when the projectile and all of it's hot propellant gasses are fired into a blocked barrel. Perhaps the bullet will enter the body of the assailant, do it's work and save your life. Or the barrel may explode in your face and shower you with pieces of metal, if the barrel already has a latent undetected defect in the metal from the finishing process. Perhaps the barrel may simply bulge. Nonetheless you are now holding a ruined weapon and if there are multiple assailants, you are screwed. That is why, for the possibility of confrontations that may turn into a life or death grappling match, I always have a tactical folding knife as part of my EDC kit. Preferably one that has an assisted-opening mechanism with a finger activated switch. I have several of these. Schrades, Smith & Wesson and Black Legion. With blade lengths varying between 3.5 to 4 inches and sporting partially serrated cutting edges. Most of these are either linerlocks or framelocks and are built like tanks. Even without the blade being deployed, the knife can be gripped and the swivel part of the frame used as a pretty nasty and effective blunt impact weapon. Knives are not just weapons. They are also tools, and I believe I never, ever walked out of the door without having a tactical knife, flashlight and a trusty Zippo as part of my belt. Guns? Depending on the laws in the area I am in and on the nature of where I am going to. Sometimes I carry, sometimes I don't. But a knife has always been part of my kit. |
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November 11, 2018, 12:07 PM | #39 |
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It's difficult to Monday morning quarterback these types of things with a black and white response.
If you haven't taken a force on force class with sim rounds, you really don't know. If you have taken a force on force class with sim rounds, you still don't really know. But you have an idea. The "belly gun" is one I used to carry when I would carry my main sidearm at my strong-side. The revolver was a Smith and Wesson 360PD appendix. It was carried there for that very reason. In being a belly gun. Unlike a semi-automatic where the slide needs to reciprocate to chamber the next round, the revolver just spins in place and you can dump all 5-6+ rounds into someone with much less chance of a stoppage. So yes, they are better in that. What's best in all is avoid stupid places, at stupid times, and with stupid people. Distance is always best and nothing, I mean nothing goes like you think it will. In any scenario, you can conjure up. With all this said, I highly recommend a force on force class. |
November 11, 2018, 12:28 PM | #40 | |
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None of this is meant to say that knives can't and aren't extremely effective close quarters weapons, I just don't know if pistols are as prone to detonation as is described above. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk Last edited by TunnelRat; November 13, 2018 at 03:23 PM. |
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November 11, 2018, 12:30 PM | #41 | |
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This subject is really thought-provoking and is a lot like defensive driving. After all, I am not worried about cruising into another lane and hitting someone. I know that will never happen because I am physically and mentally fit to drive and I thoroughly make sure the equipment I am driving is in road-safe condition, always. BUT...that doesn't mean someone else might not cruise into my lane and hit me. For someone driving a compact car, that is already a nightmarish scenario. And I drive a Kenworth flatbed...A lot of times with a Caterpillar backhoe strapped to the cargo slab. Trying to swerve or make sudden movements to avoid another motorist, especially on a wet or frozen motorway, is just asking for loads of trouble. Defensive driving and driving experience help me stay focused as well as observant of my surroundings, so when someone makes a traffic error that can result in an emergency, I would know how to react. Hopefully. |
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November 11, 2018, 01:13 PM | #42 |
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Rachen your definition of psychopath is as wrong as your conclusion regarding Askins behavior. Askins, by his own admission killed because he could, without remorse. By definition psychopathic behavior. Rationalization of inhumane behavior in response to real or imagined
inhumane behavior is not how rational humans behave. I accept that in war good men can cross the line. Askins was not a good man who went too far. He was a psychopath taking advantage of power and position to do his evil.
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November 11, 2018, 01:14 PM | #43 | |
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November 11, 2018, 01:32 PM | #44 | |
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November 11, 2018, 03:15 PM | #45 |
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a gun that is good for "too close" like a Charter Arms Bulldog .44spl.... loses its advantage when the distance is in your favor....
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November 11, 2018, 03:18 PM | #46 | |
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November 11, 2018, 03:56 PM | #47 | ||||||
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And yes, the POW was German, but killing people purely because of their nationality/ancestry is completely unacceptable--and if you think about it, using such an argument in support of killing Germans during WWII is tremendously ironic given that Germany's greatest crime was killing people purely because of their ancestry. Quote:
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2. Even if he were SS, it would still be a war crime to shoot him in the manner Askins described. Quote:
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2. Askins' account does not suggest or even hint that he was shooting the German for any reason other than the damage being done to the vehicles. 3. Even had he known about Auschwitz, shooting a POW in the manner described would still be murder. Quote:
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November 11, 2018, 04:13 PM | #48 |
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Jefferson County Combined Academy. They teach more cadets in CO than any other and are widely considered a leading Department in the Country.
Maybe not taught as a "rule" which some departments improperly ascribed to the Tueller drill, but more as a distance at which you have to take action. What action you take is of course situation specific and is based on a lot of factors, but still, that does not eliminate that 21 feet is a distance as which, in most cases, a person, depending on his demeanor and actions, might be a threat. Last edited by MarkCO; November 11, 2018 at 04:21 PM. |
November 11, 2018, 04:18 PM | #49 | |
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November 11, 2018, 04:22 PM | #50 |
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I added some context Jerry. I don't think they are off in their teaching in this area.
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