The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 4, 2019, 01:18 AM   #1
trigger45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 1999
Location: TEXAS,USA
Posts: 321
Ok big question. 308 win ,147gr fmjbt, blc2.

I bought bulk just to play with this.


And it’s grouping well. Sort of. What loads work well for you?

I resized, sorry IPhone X camera is awesome.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by trigger45; October 4, 2019 at 09:38 PM.
trigger45 is offline  
Old October 4, 2019, 12:52 PM   #2
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 16,616
Trigger45,

At 4032 pixels wide, that photo goes way off-screen for most unless they zoom out to where the text is no longer eligible. You want to reduce it to about 800 pixels wide, maybe 1024 at most, so everyone can see it.

BL-(C)2 is canister grade Western Cannon 846, a spherical propellant designed for the M80 cartridge originally. It may do better for you with a magnum primer, as it doesn't ignite easily. You can always move to something like one of the 4895's if you don't find a good load with it.

I have to say I don't recall ever finding a 147-grain FMJ that shot very well. The very slightly heavier Hornady 150-grain FMJ bullet has always shot better for me, and, of course, the 150-grain Sierra MatchKing is better still.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old October 4, 2019, 09:49 PM   #3
trigger45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 1999
Location: TEXAS,USA
Posts: 321
Ok big question. 308 win ,147gr fmjbt, blc2.

Well I’d like to amend my post, I had a bad range trip.

After noticing my groups getting larger I stopped. Went home and started measuring bullets. Some were .3085 some were .3075 and I was rather put out. So I have 400 fishing weights left. Figured I’ll spend $20 on a sizing die. I’ll see if that helps. so we’ll find out. Thought I could get out cheap. Even thinking about calling MidwayUSA. Cleaned my barrel for an hour. Finally got it cleaned from all the gunk. Now don’t need loads need consistent bullets.

Edit. Not MidwayUSA, it was wideners.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Last edited by trigger45; October 6, 2019 at 01:36 AM.
trigger45 is offline  
Old October 5, 2019, 07:43 AM   #4
Mr.RevolverGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 811
My M1A and AR10 shoots 44.8gr of BLC2 lights out with a 147gr pill. I reproduced surplus radway gree case head stamp RG load. This british military surplus ammo from Radway is 147gr with 46.8gr of WC846/BLC2 in a Winchester case. This is very important as winchest cases has much more volume than the cases I were using. My Lake City cases has 2gr less volume so my load ended up being 44.8gr.

Never believe any reloading data you get on the internet it must always be double checked in the proper reloading manual. Also never think this load will work flawlessly for you as each rifle is different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcSxT2B7Ptk
__________________
Mr.Revolverguy
http://www.dayattherange.com
Firearms Reviewed and Reported On: An unbiased opinion with real world use.
Mr.RevolverGuy is offline  
Old October 5, 2019, 09:55 AM   #5
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,188
Competitive shooters using handloaded bullets 145 to 155 grains in 308/7.62 cases winning matches and setting records favored stick (extruded) powders. Even with 2/10th grain charge weight spreads compared to zero with ball powders.

IMR4895 and Varget are excellent.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 163
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; October 5, 2019 at 10:02 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old October 5, 2019, 12:33 PM   #6
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 16,616
Mr.RevolverGuy,

It looks like that lot of Ammo had potential in your AR10. I would like to have seen what a 10-shot group looked like, but what you got out of the M1A is more typical of what I've seen from most 147's. I know of no mechanical reason that has to be true, though. It just seems more like an artifact of most of that stuff being cranked out quickly and not too carefully.

Below is an example of 150.5-grain M2 Ball bullets that also didn't shoot too tightly. They are out of a 1972 lot of M2 Ball. The different bullet bases show they weren't made on the same tooling and maybe not even on identical types of machines. That lot had a crimp similar to the Lee Factory crimp, but right in the middle of the bullet bearing surface, so some of them can't even roll smoothing on a flat surface.

__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old October 5, 2019, 07:00 PM   #7
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,188
Arsenal ammo plants are notorious for putting several different lots of bullets in one production lot of ammo. 30 caliber match ammo typically had 3 or 4 different sets of dies making bullets for one lot of ammo. No wonder the best lots tested about 2 MOA at 600, most lots 3 MOA plus.
Bart B. is offline  
Old October 7, 2019, 01:24 PM   #8
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,339
You bought 147gr FMJ in bulk and you're disappointed that they aren't match quality??

You do know what those bullets are made for, don't you? Machineguns and battle rifles. Neither of which is noted for one hole group accuracy.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old October 9, 2019, 09:19 AM   #9
Charlie98
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2006
Location: Great state of Texas
Posts: 1,067
Quote:
You bought 147gr FMJ in bulk and you're disappointed that they aren't match quality??
+1
__________________
_______________

"I have this pistol pointed at your heart!"
"That is my least vulnerable spot."
Charlie98 is offline  
Old October 9, 2019, 10:15 AM   #10
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.RevolverGuy View Post
Never believe any reloading data you get on the internet it must always be double checked in the proper reloading manual. Also never think this load will work flawlessly for you as each rifle is different.
Which one of the several reloading manuals is proper?

Rarely, if ever, do their max loads agree. Nor do they use the same lots of powder and primers as you will.
Bart B. is offline  
Old October 9, 2019, 10:29 AM   #11
Don Fischer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,552
I had a long running love for the 308 in the past, still have one but only shoot cast in it when I do shoot anymoe. I'd never found a 150gr bullet that shot as well as 165's and 180's in my Rem 660. But come's to powder it always seemed like it didn't matter much what I used as long as it wasn't slow burning. BLC/2, W748. IMR 3031 IMR 4064, they all shot lights out good! For whatever reason I don't know my favotire was IMR 3031. The differenc in it and the other's was, I think, all in my head! BLC/2 just might could use a mag primer. Haven't had any around i years but as I recall wasn't it a ball powder? Same with W 748. I simply used standard primer's and no complaint's. Neve bugh any FMJ bullet's for 308, I always used bullet's I would hunt with and that has always been standard cup and core bullet's.
Don Fischer is offline  
Old October 9, 2019, 11:31 AM   #12
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,188
People shooting Sierra 150 grain match bullets in 308 Win match rifles have got 1/4 MOA average since the mid 1960's. Favorite powder was IMR4895.

Rebulleting LC M80 ammo that had IMR4475 powder (speed between 3031 & 4895) with Sierra 150 HPMKs tested about 2/3rds MOA through 600 yards in USN 7.62 Garand's 1:12 twist barrels.

Last edited by Bart B.; October 9, 2019 at 12:01 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old October 9, 2019, 01:36 PM   #13
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,489
A 147 grain FMJBT is the standard 7.62NATO Ball bullet. Like Nick says, they're not made for accuracy.
"Just to play with" is a different story. They're great for that. Look for a powder that gives you around 2800 FPS using 150 grain data. Preferably with a mid range load. There are a lot of powders that'll do that. I'd have to look at what I loaded the 150 grain Silvertips(discontinued, sniff.) with for my semi'd Winchester M-14. Not at home though. It'd be whatever Lyman gave as the Accuracy load.
"...Never believe any reloading data you get on the internet..." That's not entirely true. Unless the data in question is not from a reputable source. Some guy on a forum is not a reputable source. A powder or bullet maker's site is. Mind you, some of 'em, like Hodgdon, have gotten kind of questionable(they're inconsistent with magnum vs non-magnum primer suggestions), but not for regular loads. The whole thing is about liability.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old October 9, 2019, 04:11 PM   #14
trigger45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 1999
Location: TEXAS,USA
Posts: 321
Help fmjbt diameter all over the place.

Got surplus 500 pack of IMi .308 fmjbt 147 fr and diameters are all over the place.





Can I use a bullet sizer to correct this?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Attached Images
File Type: jpg T1.jpg (202.8 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg T2.jpg (205.1 KB, 65 views)

Last edited by trigger45; October 12, 2019 at 08:44 PM.
trigger45 is offline  
Old October 9, 2019, 04:12 PM   #15
trigger45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 1999
Location: TEXAS,USA
Posts: 321
Some are range between.308 and .309.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
trigger45 is offline  
Old October 9, 2019, 04:41 PM   #16
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,460
1) Good.Cheap,Fast? Pick any two (Have reasonable expectations for bargain bullets)

2) Knurling displaces metal and has the effect of making diameters seem to have more material. Don't measure over knurled cannelures

3) Use an appropriate tool for the job. Dial calipers are good tools but if you are using them to say bullets measuring .308 to /309 are "All over the place"
you have a misconception about calipers.

Try a good Browne and Sharpe,Starret,Mitutoyo,etc micrometer,carbide faces,1 10,000th Vernier,check t against a standard such as a J0-Block,and measure your bullets.

The good news,your bullets are probably much better than you think

Your photo file size is way too big. They are magnified so large I can't really look at them.
HiBC is offline  
Old October 9, 2019, 04:50 PM   #17
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,188
They'll all size to the barrel groove diameter when fired. I wouldn't size them down at all

They're about .3086" to .3088' diameter. That's within SAAMI specs. Same diameter as arsenal 7.62 NATO M118 173 gr. FMJBT and 30 caliber WCC 197 gr. BTHP match bullets

30 caliber bullets shoot most accurate when they're at least .0003" larger than barrel groove diameters. I see nothing wrong with their diameters. Top quality match barrels with .3078" groove have shot 185vgr. Lapua .3092" match bullets sub 1/4 MOA thru 300 yards.

Slug your barrel then mic it to check its groove diameter.

Last edited by Bart B.; October 9, 2019 at 05:12 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old October 10, 2019, 09:33 AM   #18
trigger45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 1999
Location: TEXAS,USA
Posts: 321
Ok I seem to be getting some replies. I checked some .243 bullets I have. They measured .243. I measured some .270 bullets .277 so my expectations were thus.

This is my first .30 caliber. But have been reloading for 35 years. Never ran into bullets this out of spec.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
trigger45 is offline  
Old October 10, 2019, 11:04 AM   #19
mikld
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2009
Location: Southern Oregon!
Posts: 2,867
I saw .3085"-.310", .0015" difference which is OK for surplus battle rifle bullets. They certainly are not designed for super accuracy (if you weigh some, and measure the length you'll probable notice variations there too). Unless the vendor states the manufacturer you won't know how many manufacturers produced your 500 bullets...

I purchased a bunch of 147 gr pulls when I first started reloading for my Garand. I was concerned with function and getting used to reloading for a new to me type of rifle (and accuracy and good bullets came later.). Didn't have too high expectations about accuracy, so I only measured a random few. All worked and hit the target, somewhere...
__________________
My Anchor is holding fast!
I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...
mikld is offline  
Old October 10, 2019, 12:38 PM   #20
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 6,186
You should measure those at 90 degrees not vertical.

The cannelure is an odd zone to avoid.

Also your technique and how good a gauge you are using matters.

For what you got its not an issue, they are not match grade.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

Last edited by RC20; October 10, 2019 at 02:17 PM.
RC20 is offline  
Old October 10, 2019, 12:43 PM   #21
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 6,186
After noticing my groups getting larger I stopped. Went home and started measuring
Quote:
bullets. Some were .3085 some were .3075 and I was rather put out. So I have 400 fishing weights left. Figured I’ll spend $20 on a sizing die. I’ll see if that helps. so we’ll find out. Thought I could get out cheap. Even thinking about calling MidwayUSA. Cleaned my barrel for an hour. Finally got it cleaned from all the gunk. Now don’t need loads need consistent bullets.
You want good bullets you pay good bullet pries
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old October 10, 2019, 12:48 PM   #22
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,339
Quote:
Got surplus 500 pack of IMi .308 fmjbt 147 fr and diameters are all over the place.
Note the bolded parts. MILITARY SURPLUS, IMI (Foreign military surplus), 147gr FMJ (Ball slugs, the cheapest made GI stuff there is).

They aren't made to be match slugs. They aren't made to be perfectly consistent. They are made to be "good enough to work" in military weapons, not designed for fine accuracy.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old October 10, 2019, 01:01 PM   #23
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,489
Geez. Please reduce the size of your pictures. 3,024px × 4,032px is far too big.
Those bullets were made for 7.62NATO. They are not match grade bullets. Great accuracy is not a requirement for ammo intended to be used in machine guns.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old October 10, 2019, 01:20 PM   #24
zeke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 998
For all the time and money it takes to reload rifle, and including the limited time to spend at range, am willing to buy good bullets. Am sure those company's are saving their best effort to sell at surplus? Bought them once, not again. Even for open sighted "battle" rifles.
zeke is offline  
Old October 10, 2019, 02:18 PM   #25
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 6,186
OP has been warned about his picture sizes and pretty much the same post as prior.

You want accurate, buy accurate. You want sprayers, you got em.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09611 seconds with 9 queries