Headspace/Sizing problem

[vettepilot]

My sister bought me a bag of "once fired" 30.06 brass at a yard sale. It looked really good, so I decided to process it. So using my Lee full length sizing die, set as instructed, I resized the brass. (I set the die a little less than 1/4 turn down after the shell holder touched the die.) I figured I would full length size them, shoot them in my gun, then just neck size them afterwards.

Using my comparator, new rounds measure 2.044", and brass fired in my rifle measure 2.048". This used brass measured around 2.049 to 2.050 before I sized it. So imagine my surprise and consternation when I measured the brass after full length resizing to find it 2.030"!! (Yeah, I foolishly sized the whole batch before thinking to measure it while sizing.....)

Now I know what the future cure is; DON'T FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS! Seriously, in the future I will set the die short, and then measure and set, measure and set, and measure and set until I get the die set somewhere reasonable.

But! What about this brass? Is it ruined? If fired, it will have a headspace of about .018". Too much to be safe? (If I do shoot it, I will anneal it before finishing loading them.) Also, I had read that the Lee full length sizer die was made to do a minimal sizing, so what happened here?

Please, I have been loading for a while, (using other dies), and I do know how to use my comparator to measure brass base to shoulder datum, so I don't need basic instruction, just wanting to figure out how and why this brass got over sized, (shoulder pushed back way too far), and if you all think this brass is safe to use being .018" shorter than the headspace of my gun.

Thanks for any input,
Vettepilot555

[Unclenick]

Welcome to the forum. Please introduce yourself in this thread.

Interesting that your cases got so short. I've not run into a commercial die that could do that before; only ones with specially ground down mouths. I notice the short measurement you got is exactly what you would get from a correctly sized .30-06 if you used the 0.400" comparator insert instead of the intended 0.375" insert. Any chance you swapped inserts to measure .308 Win and forgot to swap them back? Did you re-zero the comparator for each measurement? Or, if you are using a dial type, recheck your math?

As to danger, not really, but you could stretch the case to the point of incipient head separation if the difference is really that large. One technique to save long cases is to load them with a starting charge and apply a thin film of grease to the brass. This causes stretching to be spread out over a greater length of the sides rather than thinning at a short pressure ring. That should fireform them to your chamber without ruining them. Another technique would be to load them as if you were fireforming a wildcat with a few grains of Bullseye or Red Dot followed by filling with Cream of Wheat.

[T. O'Heir]

"...1/4 turn down after the shell holder touched the die..." The shell holder should just kiss the bottom of the die with the ram all the way up.
Measure the cases with a Vernier calipre set at 2.494". That's the Max case length for .30-06. Trim-to is 2.484". Anything in between is ok.

[Bart B.]

Full length resize those cases with the die backed half a turn up from the shellholder.

That usually squeezes the case body down enough to push the shoulder forward enough. If not, raise the die 1/8 turn then try again. Then adjust as needed.

It is OK to follow directions after you understand what each step does. "Case headspace" is shoulder to head measurement. About 2.047" for 30-06. The space between chambered case head and bolt face is called "head clearance;" the difference between chamber headspace and case headspace in firing position.

PS:

Unclenick, please post your die adjustment labels; thanks.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

"...1/4 turn down after the shell holder touched the die..." The shell holder should just kiss the bottom of the die with the ram all the way up.

Without a case in the die?

The OP is wanting his resized cases to have a specific headspace, not a specific length.

[vettepilot]

Yes, I am measuring from base to shoulder datum, not case overall length.

So the bottom line is, as this brass is presently sized, it will have .018" space between the datum on the shoulder of the brass, to the mating datum on the shoulder in the gun chamber. Is this too much; is it dangerous; should I fireform the brass before loading it??

Also, interesting notion about the possiblity of having an incorrect datum insert in the comparator. I didn't think so since the numbers for my new rounds and for my own once fired brass made sense, but I checked anyway, and I am using the correct .375 insert in the tool.

Thanks,
Vettepilot

[Bart B.]

I think you should first try to move the case shoulders forward several thousandths per my post #4.

This is the safe thing to do. Otherwise, there will be too much space between case head and bolt face as well as its shoulder to chamber shoulder. Cases are typically not held against bolt faces when fired.

[Unclenick]

Agree. Bart's idea is a good one to try. You are running the cases into the die just short of the case touching the shoulder. As my illustration shows, when the sides of the die contact the sides of the case, it happens before shoulder contact and squeezes the case narrower and longer. Springback should have made your cases about a thousandth or so wider than the die, so you might get a few thousandths in length back this way.

But as to a hazard from just shooting them, no. Keep in mind all the Ackley Improved designs are intended to have the shoulder blow itself forward to fireform the case, and that doesn't do case damage.

As I mentioned recently in another post, I was at a range one day when a fellow came up to me with a rife case that, in place of the shoulder and neck, just had a sort of rounded shape that ended in a hole the size of a 30 caliber case mouth. He asked if that was normal? I confirmed it was not. The headstamp said .308 Win. The rifle barrel had .30-06 stamped on it.

That's the most extreme example of excess headspace I've ever witnessed. It didn't blow up. Inertia likely held the case hard enough for the primer to fire and the extractor hook kept that from driving the cartridge too far forward, so it just expanded the brass and let go of the bullet. The bullet still found its way down the barrel and out. I can't recall it if hit the target paper or not. Its velocity would be greatly reduced by all the gas that escaped around it before it obturated the bore. Since he was just shooting at 50 yards, I guess I would have expected it to hit the paper if he had bore sighted the rifle and knew how to shoot. But I surmised he didn't know a lot.

[hounddawg]

.018 is a lot of space, .010 over field length according to Hatcher's Notebook. Headspace for the 30-06 as minimum of 1.942" and the field gage is 1.950. Personally I would just toss the cases, it's not like 30 06 brass is rare or expensive. If you are determined to use them I would move the shoulder back to where it is supposed to be by fire forming first.

Think of it this way, 30 06 brass can be had for less than $.50 a case, your rifle and medical insurance co pay would probably cost more than that

[Unclenick]

It occurs to me to ask another question. Have you used this same die to resize other brass originally fired in your gun without running into excessive resizing? If so, it makes me wonder if the brass was way over-annealed by the owner. Every once in a while you run into someone who thinks it's OK to anneal the whole case in an oven and doesn't realize the heads have to be kept hard. If the whole case is soft, that might explain the extreme forming. So if you don't toss it, I would think about treating it as experimental and firing it with a much-reduced load first (10 grains of Unique is a common light load for .30-06), then look for signs of the head flattening against the bolt and flowing into its surface features. That will resize them for you at the same time.

[hounddawg]

Every once in a while you run into someone who thinks it's OK to anneal the whole case in an oven and doesn't realize the heads have to be kept hard

most home ovens top out at about 500F, too low to affect the brass. Not wanting to derail the thread into annealing but

Annealing experiments were conducted on a number of the cold worked specimens. Figures 5a and b show color etched images of the specimens cold reduced 50% and then annealed 30 minutes at 500 and 700°F. No difference in the microstructure is seen in the specimen held 30 minutes at 500°F while a very small amount of recrystallization is observed in the specimen held 30 minutes at 700°F. Figures 6a and b show color images of 50% cold reduced specimens held for 4 and 8 minutes at 800°F while Figures 6c and d show 50% cold reduced specimens held 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F. No change is observed after 4 minutes at 800°F, while a minor amount of recrystallization has occurred after 8 minutes. Holding specimens for 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F revealed partial recrystallization after 15 minutes and full recrystallization after 30 minutes. The grain structure is relatively fine but is not uniform in its distribution.

https://vacaero.com/information-reso...dge-brass.html

[RC20]

Houndawg: That gets dicey as to the timing and the oven thermostat so the right answer is do not do it.

Anything that is at the edge is beyond a bad idea.

In a private discussion you could bring that up but its a bad one for disseminating with such a varied audience that gets passed on and someone forgets to say, oh yea, no more than 30 minutes. .

[hounddawg]

@RC never used a oven myself, can't think of anyone in this day and age that would. Maybe ten or fifteen years ago a few tried it, but in this day and age? The guy who wrote the article has about 47 more years metallurgy experience than I have and works for a industrial heat treating company. I think I would trust the article.

Anyway back to OP, the cases sell for fifty cents each new and are way beyond what would be acceptable even in a military rifle on the battlefield. Use your own judgement

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes a loading procedure beyond or not covered by currently published or recommended procedures. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK (or better yet, don't use at all). Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.


Hounddawg, you are probably used to thinking of annealing temperatures as being around 700°F-750°F, but that only applies to quick annealing. If someone leaves cases in an oven for an hour, stress relieving starts be detectable at 482°F and it will be completed at 572°F and I've had ovens with poor thermostats that swung past that. Indeed, I actually tried this once at about 450°F (half annealing) with some Winchester .45 ACP brass that I was using in very mild lead bullet target loads (200-grain LSWC and 3.8 grains of Bullseye). It was interesting to watch as, over a number of load cycles, the headstamp lettering on the softened heads gradually had brass flow in and make it disappear. I'd never have trusted this brass with full-house loads and don't recommend anyone else do it the experiment. I was young and foolish then. I was also careful to capture it all so nobody else got hold of one of these cases.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell

[hounddawg]

Hounddawg, you are probably used to thinking of annealing temperatures as being around 700°F-750°F, but that only applies to quick annealing. If someone leaves cases in an oven for an hour, stress relieving starts be detectable at 482°F and it will be completed at 572°F and I've had ovens with poor thermostats that swung past that. Indeed, I actually tried this once at about 450°F (half annealing) with some Winchester .45 ACP brass that I was using in very mild lead bullet target loads (200-grain LSWC and 3.8 grains of Bullseye). It was interesting to watch as, over a number of load cycles, the headstamp lettering on the softened heads gradually had brass flow in and make it disappear. I'd never have trusted this brass with full-house loads and don't recommend anyone else do it the experiment. I was young and foolish then. I was also careful to capture it all so nobody else got hold of one of these cases.

well Nick no disrespect intended but from the article

Deformation and Annealing of Cartridge Brass

Annealing experiments were conducted on a number of the cold worked specimens. Figures 5a and b show color etched images of the specimens cold reduced 50% and then annealed 30 minutes at 500 and 700°F. No difference in the microstructure is seen in the specimen held 30 minutes at 500°F while a very small amount of recrystallization is observed in the specimen held 30 minutes at 700°F

and the authors credentials

George Vander Voort has a background in physical, process and mechanical metallurgy and has been performing metallographic studies for 47 years. He is a long-time member of ASTM Committee E-4 on metallography and has published extensively in metallography and failure analysis. He regularly teaches MEI courses for ASM International and is now doing webinars. He is a consultant for Struers Inc. and will be teaching courses soon for them.

I really do not care, I have not annealed a case in over a year and have seen absolutely no difference in my groups or velocity consistency

[vettepilot]

Thanks again for all the info and help guys. One might think "What's the big deal? Chuck those particular cases in the trash and move on!" The thing is, I wanted to learn from the issue, and how to "fix" it. Also, my sister has terminal cancer, and she worked up the energy to get out of bed and go to some yard sales, which was her passion. It might be her last time to do it, and she thought of me and bought these cases. Besides, they are Lake City Match brass, so for all the above reasons, I wanted to try to save them, and I thank you again.

Vettepilot

[vettepilot]

I've decided what I am going to do. I am going to fireform the cases with 10 grains of Unique. I have experience in this, as I made my brother in law a bunch of cool brass cases for his .410 shotgun out of some 9.3 x 74r brass.

Do you all think I should fill the cases with crushed walnut shells or corn cob media on top of the Unique, or just load the Unique, a projectile, and go for it?

Also, one last question. I used Lee's case lube this time, and looking closely into the die with a bright light, I can see bits of clumped lube. Do you think buildup of wax in the die could have caused the problem??

Vettepilot

[hounddawg]

I bet if you look around you can find a crafter in your area who could turn a few of those caseheads into jewelry for a more permanent keepsake. I have seen some of that stuff at swap meets. Case head cufflinks, earrings etc

Anyway I think the fireforming is the right decision, can't be of help with that process though

[F. Guffey]

Please, I have been loading for a while, (using other dies), and I do know how to use my comparator to measure brass base to shoulder datum, so I don't need basic instruction,

I find it impossible to oversize a case: the reason? My dies are designed to return a fired case to minimum length/full length sized. That means nothing to most reloaders because there is not such thing as 'full length sized' or a case with a length that is minimum length. And then there is that thing about following instructions'. The instructions in the big inning suggested the additional 1/4 turn after contact. many years ago there was a purpose for the additional 1/4 after contact. The additional turn of 1/4 turn after contact was to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing' there are times 1/2 additional turn is required because the case had more resistance to sizing etc.

The 1/4 additional turn is equivalent to .017", because I do not play the guessing game when sizing I use a feeler gage to adjust the die off the shell holder, I go straight 'for it'. And when I want to know 'who won' when sizing a case I measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. If the case is returned to minimum length when sizing the die should contact the shell holder when the ram is up. If there is a gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die the reloaders should know the gap represents the amount of the case that did not get shoved into the die.

At one time reloaders had an infatuation with grinding the bottom of the die and or top of the shell holder; the practice was never necessary. But grinding the shell holder and or bottom of the die increased the dies ability to reduce the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.

The comparator is nice, my favorite cases is the case that has been fired in a long trashy oversized chamber. I have a 30/06 chamber that is 'what I call a + .016"' because the chamber is .011" longer than a go-gage length chamber or .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face when compared with a case that is minimum length/full length sized from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

Try to understand component manufacturers do not make cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. When I want cases for the +.016" chamber I use 280 Remington cases because they are .051" longer from the shoulder of the case to the case head than a 30/06 case. I can not miss because all I need is a case with an additional length from the shoulder to the case head.

Because this stuff does not lock me up I use a feeler gage when forming/sizing cases for the long chamber. I choose to adjust the die off the shell holder .014" with a feeler gage. And then there has to be a rational; the reason for the .014" gap is to assure me of my magic .002" clearance.

I do not use a comparator; I can but if I did I would want to verify it because the comparator can not be compared to data specs, I want my gages to agree or I want to measure before and again after and then compare the measurements.

My cases do not have head space. You claimed you moved the shoulder back, I say that is impossible with a die that has case body support. I do not believe reloading would be so difficult if reloaders did not have all those cases with head space or being advised by reloaders that think they can move the shoulder back even if they think they can sneak up on it by 'bumping'. I understand bumping is a function of the press.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

Do you all think I should fill the cases with crushed walnut shells or corn cob media on top of the Unique, or just load the Unique, a projectile, and go for it?

I don't, I believe you should fire the cases once; I believe you should measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before firing and again after firing.

AND THEN? I suggest you measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before sizing and again after sizing.

I would also suggest you purchase a feeler gage set in the neat little bundles, one is called a mechanics and the other is called machinist. When adjusting the die off the shell holder the ideal is to avoid reducing the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head more than necessary.

F. Guffey

[hounddawg]

Houndawg: That gets dicey as to the timing and the oven thermostat so the right answer is do not do it.

Anything that is at the edge is beyond a bad idea.

In a private discussion you could bring that up but its a bad one for disseminating with such a varied audience that gets passed on and someone forgets to say, oh yea, no more than 30 minutes. .

I wasn't the one who originally brought home ovens and annealing into the conversation. I just pointed out a article where a expert in the field says that at the normal home oven temps (500 F) little or no change would take place in 30 minutes and I don't think even the dumbest person would leave them in there overnight.

[F. Guffey]

I wasn't the one who originally brought home ovens and annealing into the conversation. I just pointed out a article where a expert in the field says that at the normal home oven temps (500 F) little or no change would take place in 30 minutes and I don't think even the dumbest person would leave them in there overnight.

I have suggested reloaders review the rules of annealing; that did not work because reloaders do not have a list of rules. Unfortunately that opens the door for making this stuff up.

Many years ago I decided I was going to start annealing cases, I made a list of rules and then built a case annealer. I offered to share it with another member on this forum but he had such disastrous results from the advise he received he swore off of annealing.

He went to the 4 and done, and then we had one member that got up to 45 firings with one case and with no serious effect on the case

F. Guffey

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by vettepilot

Thanks again for all the info and help guys. One might think "What's the big deal? Chuck those particular cases in the trash and move on!" The thing is, I wanted to learn from the issue, and how to "fix" it. Also, my sister has terminal cancer, and she worked up the energy to get out of bed and go to some yard sales, which was her passion. It might be her last time to do it, and she thought of me and bought these cases. Besides, they are Lake City Match brass, so for all the above reasons, I wanted to try to save them, and I thank you again.

Vettepilot

lake City Match Brass, love that stuff. I suspect your over thinking the problem. Seem's these day's new reloaders want to become engineers! Take an unsized case and see if it chamber's in your rifle. What you described for setting your die I think is how most die co's suggest setting them. I bet they will chamber in your rifle and unless there's a headspace problem in the rifle, will fine fine. If there's a headspace problem then, I'm not sure the round will even fire or after a couple firing's you'll start to see case head separation. Easy to fix, learn to FL size making the case fit your chamber. Easy to do and can normally eliminate excessive head space. Keep in mind that whatever the headspace, match the case to your chamber and the problem goes away! If that doesn't work for you, don't throw the brass away, send it to me! I'll be glad to pay shipping!

[RC20]

I go with the above.

[F. Guffey]

I go with the above.

Is there something wrong with measuring before and again after?

Is it beyond a reloaders ability to shop for cases that have been fired in long chambers. My favorite cases are cases that been fired in trashy old chambers. Is it beyond the ability of a reloader to understand cases that have been fired in trashy old chambers will not allow the bolt to close?

And then when sizing a case explain to me what is so confusing about sizing a case with a press and die that has threads that are 14 per inch. One turn equals .071" (plus a little bit); reloaders refused to measure the gap with a feeler gage but insist on using degree wheels and conversions for degrees to thousandths .

I am the fan of determining the length of a 30/06 chamber with a 280 Remington cases. I do not start with some wild guess, I adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage; again I have one rifle with a 30/06 chamber that is .002" longer than a field reject length head space gage. What is so confusing about that arrangement?

What makes sense to a reloader is size it and then remove it and measure, if it does not fit adjust the die and sized it again and then repeat the process until something happens.

And then once the reloader catches on there is a remove chance they could progressive adjust the sizing die and continue to size the cases in different length from the shoulder to the case head until they have a set of 10 or 15 or 20. Or they can continue to wake up in a new world everday and start over.

F. Guffey