January 8, 2018, 09:35 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 24, 2017
Posts: 239
|
Expansion vs. size?
Another newbie question. Just throwing this out off the top of my head as I read more and more....
From what I've read, you can't always count on expansion. And if you store a gun in your vehicle, cold weather can also have an effect on whether or not you get expansion. So, here's the actual question: If you can't always count on expansion in a self defense situation, shouldn't there be a consideration of using a larger bullet? |
January 8, 2018, 09:46 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2015
Location: The swamps of WNY
Posts: 753
|
Yup
|
January 8, 2018, 10:00 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 12, 2000
Posts: 210
|
If you store your gun in your vehicle you are not very smart.
|
January 8, 2018, 10:11 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Nanny1 you will soon find out that this topic is one that stirs passion in some, and everyone has an opinion.
For me 9 mm is my choice for self-defense. I use high quality ammo that I am confident will expand, and the lower recoil allows me to be faster and more accurate with follow-up shots. Another benefit is higher capacity vs a larger round. Statistically there is little difference in 9 mm, .40, and .45 in defensive use. Choose the one you shoot the best is good advice, given by many professionals.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
January 8, 2018, 10:27 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,792
|
Penetration and placement are the key. The difference between a 35 caliber hole and a 45 caliber hole is insignificant. Doesn't matter if they expand or not.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill |
January 8, 2018, 11:10 AM | #6 | |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
|
Quote:
My signature line sums up the rest of my feelings on this matter..
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
|
January 8, 2018, 11:21 AM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
January 8, 2018, 11:41 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 24, 2017
Posts: 239
|
I can't carry at work. So, it has to stay in the vehicle. If I could carry at work, then I wouldn't store it there.
Also, I see the term "truck gun" thrown around a lot as an extra gun to have. Are these not stored in vehicles? Just curious if you could expand on your definition of not smart? |
January 8, 2018, 11:54 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 25, 2006
Location: The Keystone State
Posts: 1,967
|
expand
Never a fan of hollow points and find solids have greater penetration.
As others have said, shot placement is number one. BTW, vehicles can be stolen and/or broken into. Not a good place to store a gun.
__________________
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson |
January 8, 2018, 12:06 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2006
Posts: 681
|
LMAO,,,maybe my mind is in the gutter here,,,lol,,but i aint touching this one,,,lol
ocharry
__________________
The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC |
January 8, 2018, 12:15 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Anytime I enter a building where metal detectors are used and firearms prohibited, I "store" my handgun in my truck. Ammo.crafter houses are broken into and guns stolen as well. There are times when a vehicle is the best you can do for storage. I don't worry to too much about it.
nanny1 you will soon find that you take what you can use here, and ignore the rest. Good luck.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
January 8, 2018, 01:45 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,863
|
I remember reading an article on hollow point handgun bullets , when testing with heavy clothing , coats / winter clothing , the hollow point bullets would get bogged down in the material being less effective then a round nose bullet .
|
January 8, 2018, 03:25 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,966
|
Where did you hear that cold weather affects expansion? Unless you are talking about sub-zero temperatures, it doesn't.
Using good hollow-point ammunition is always a plus, but shot placement is of paramount importance. |
January 8, 2018, 03:54 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
|
Even if a .45 doesn't expand it still leaves a .45 caliber hole.
|
January 8, 2018, 04:02 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
January 8, 2018, 04:45 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 24, 2017
Posts: 239
|
Was reading a penetration test and the tester mentioned that the bullets were cold and could have had an effect. So, he re-tested with rounds that had not been stored in a cold environment. I had not heard or read that before. Glad to hear that it isn't an issue.
|
January 8, 2018, 06:01 PM | #17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
January 8, 2018, 07:33 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,321
|
Size matters as evidenced by all the tech applied to make bullets expand.
I prefer a bullet diameter starting with a "4"
__________________
Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap. "Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating. |
January 9, 2018, 09:59 AM | #19 | |
Junior member
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,374
|
Quote:
And in successfully terminating hostilities, the key factor is penetration because even a small bullet that properly expands will be ineffective if it doesn't penetrate enough to hit vital organs, especially those in the upper thoracic region. And yes, as between competing calibers, all of the above commentary assumes "proper shot-placement," so don't even go there. Size-wise, gunfights are actually the opposite of fistfights. "Large & heavy" projectiles, properly placed, generally convey better terminal benefits, whereas with humans "large & heavy" ain't necessarily an advantage. |
|
January 9, 2018, 03:46 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,966
|
Think about this:
Exactly how much difference do you actually think a few thousandths of an inch make? In the overall scope of things, not very much in reality. Seriously- THINK about it. Yes, I want bigger too, but is it really that much of an advantage? |
January 9, 2018, 04:30 PM | #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 22, 2017
Posts: 1,011
|
Quote:
It seems to me that too many shooters suffer from a certain distemper that causes them to believe that they must carry a gun firing a round so devastatingly powerful that if it hits the target on their pinky finger, the impact will snap their neck. I don't believe that such powerful cartridges are reasonable or prudent choices for the vast majority of amateur shooters. A big, powerful round you can't hit anything with is effectively useless. A big, powerful round that goes through the target and wounds of kills someone in the house across the street may, in the long run, turn out to have been a worse choice than a smaller round - or not shooting at all. Power, penetration, energy transfer, recoil, controllability, wound ballistics, comfort are all factors that a shooter must bring into balance in choosing a weapon for self defense. Choosing an extreme of any factor will seldom result in an optimal outcome. |
|
January 9, 2018, 04:35 PM | #22 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 22, 2017
Posts: 1,011
|
Quote:
Now, if you want to say that provided all candidate cartridges can be handled by the shooter with equal proficiency, the larger projectile enjoys an advantage, I would agree, but not a blanket statement that bigger is always better. |
|
January 9, 2018, 05:02 PM | #23 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
This is an excellent article that is very informative;
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel..._FAQ/index.htm The short version is the most important factor in terminal ballistics is shot placement. Shot placement doesn’t just mean hitting the surface of the target where you aimed - it also means penetrating deeply enough to have the desired effect in a variety of circumstances. There are a lot of variables at play. Even among expanding bullets, performance from one lot of the same type of bullet and the next lot can vary, sometimes by a lot. There is no perfect answer or that’s what we’d all use for every situation. |
January 9, 2018, 05:15 PM | #24 |
Junior member
Join Date: June 13, 2017
Posts: 429
|
Two holes are better than one so penetration is key after shot placement. Still I'd rather not get shot with a hollow point.
|
January 9, 2018, 06:22 PM | #25 | |
Junior member
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,374
|
Quote:
Accurate shot placement and penetration are two different things. An accurate shot puts the projectile where it needs to be (say, in the upper thoracic zone on a human target), but it is the penetrative ability of the round (i.e., its sectional density), plus material construction, plus it's velocity that determine how far the bullet will penetrate after surface impact. Even with accurate shot placement, underpenetration has gotten folks killed. |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|