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Old January 8, 2018, 09:35 AM   #1
nanney1
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Expansion vs. size?

Another newbie question. Just throwing this out off the top of my head as I read more and more....

From what I've read, you can't always count on expansion. And if you store a gun in your vehicle, cold weather can also have an effect on whether or not you get expansion.

So, here's the actual question: If you can't always count on expansion in a self defense situation, shouldn't there be a consideration of using a larger bullet?
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Old January 8, 2018, 09:46 AM   #2
David R
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Yup
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Old January 8, 2018, 10:00 AM   #3
BILLG
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If you store your gun in your vehicle you are not very smart.
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Old January 8, 2018, 10:11 AM   #4
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Nanny1 you will soon find out that this topic is one that stirs passion in some, and everyone has an opinion.

For me 9 mm is my choice for self-defense. I use high quality ammo that I am confident will expand, and the lower recoil allows me to be faster and more accurate with follow-up shots. Another benefit is higher capacity vs a larger round.

Statistically there is little difference in 9 mm, .40, and .45 in defensive use. Choose the one you shoot the best is good advice, given by many professionals.
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Old January 8, 2018, 10:27 AM   #5
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Penetration and placement are the key. The difference between a 35 caliber hole and a 45 caliber hole is insignificant. Doesn't matter if they expand or not.
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Old January 8, 2018, 11:10 AM   #6
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Doesn't matter if they expand or not.
The few billion $ worth of hollowpoints made and sold over the last 40 years tells me somebody thinks it's important...

My signature line sums up the rest of my feelings on this matter..
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
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Old January 8, 2018, 11:21 AM   #7
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The difference between a 35 caliber hole and a 45 caliber hole is insignificant. Doesn't matter if they expand or not.
Depends on where you hit them. When I was working Patrol in the projects I saw lots of people shot. The 357 magnum was legendary for a reason.
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Old January 8, 2018, 11:41 AM   #8
nanney1
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Originally Posted by BILLG View Post
If you store your gun in your vehicle you are not very smart.
I can't carry at work. So, it has to stay in the vehicle. If I could carry at work, then I wouldn't store it there.

Also, I see the term "truck gun" thrown around a lot as an extra gun to have. Are these not stored in vehicles?

Just curious if you could expand on your definition of not smart?
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Old January 8, 2018, 11:54 AM   #9
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expand

Never a fan of hollow points and find solids have greater penetration.

As others have said, shot placement is number one.

BTW, vehicles can be stolen and/or broken into. Not a good place to store a gun.
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Old January 8, 2018, 12:06 PM   #10
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LMAO,,,maybe my mind is in the gutter here,,,lol,,but i aint touching this one,,,lol

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Old January 8, 2018, 12:15 PM   #11
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Anytime I enter a building where metal detectors are used and firearms prohibited, I "store" my handgun in my truck. Ammo.crafter houses are broken into and guns stolen as well. There are times when a vehicle is the best you can do for storage. I don't worry to too much about it.

nanny1 you will soon find that you take what you can use here, and ignore the rest. Good luck.
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Old January 8, 2018, 01:45 PM   #12
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I remember reading an article on hollow point handgun bullets , when testing with heavy clothing , coats / winter clothing , the hollow point bullets would get bogged down in the material being less effective then a round nose bullet .
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Old January 8, 2018, 03:25 PM   #13
Bill DeShivs
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Where did you hear that cold weather affects expansion? Unless you are talking about sub-zero temperatures, it doesn't.
Using good hollow-point ammunition is always a plus, but shot placement is of paramount importance.
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Old January 8, 2018, 03:54 PM   #14
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Even if a .45 doesn't expand it still leaves a .45 caliber hole.
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Old January 8, 2018, 04:02 PM   #15
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Unless you are talking about sub-zero temperatures, it doesn't.
It still doesn't.
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Old January 8, 2018, 04:45 PM   #16
nanney1
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Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs View Post
Where did you hear that cold weather affects expansion? Unless you are talking about sub-zero temperatures, it doesn't.
Using good hollow-point ammunition is always a plus, but shot placement is of paramount importance.
Was reading a penetration test and the tester mentioned that the bullets were cold and could have had an effect. So, he re-tested with rounds that had not been stored in a cold environment. I had not heard or read that before. Glad to hear that it isn't an issue.
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Old January 8, 2018, 06:01 PM   #17
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Was reading a penetration test and the tester mentioned that the bullets were cold and could have had an effect. So, he re-tested with rounds that had not been stored in a cold environment. I had not heard or read that before. Glad to hear that it isn't an issue.
I have lived in North Dakota for 20 years. I worked LE and hunted, bullets work just fine @ -40.
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Old January 8, 2018, 07:33 PM   #18
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Size matters as evidenced by all the tech applied to make bullets expand.
I prefer a bullet diameter starting with a "4"
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Old January 9, 2018, 09:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
* * * If you can't always count on expansion in a self defense situation, shouldn't there be a consideration of using a larger bullet?
In a gunfight, the edge always goes to the larger projectile since nothing guarantees expansion, or the degree of expansion, and a larger bullet might strike a vital organ, even partially so, that a smaller bullet could miss.

And in successfully terminating hostilities, the key factor is penetration because even a small bullet that properly expands will be ineffective if it doesn't penetrate enough to hit vital organs, especially those in the upper thoracic region.

And yes, as between competing calibers, all of the above commentary assumes "proper shot-placement," so don't even go there.

Size-wise, gunfights are actually the opposite of fistfights. "Large & heavy" projectiles, properly placed, generally convey better terminal benefits, whereas with humans "large & heavy" ain't necessarily an advantage.

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Old January 9, 2018, 03:46 PM   #20
Bill DeShivs
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Think about this:
Exactly how much difference do you actually think a few thousandths of an inch make?
In the overall scope of things, not very much in reality.
Seriously- THINK about it.

Yes, I want bigger too, but is it really that much of an advantage?
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Old January 9, 2018, 04:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
nanney1 wrote:
If you can't always count on expansion in a self defense situation, shouldn't there be a consideration of using a larger bullet?
In my opinion, No.

It seems to me that too many shooters suffer from a certain distemper that causes them to believe that they must carry a gun firing a round so devastatingly powerful that if it hits the target on their pinky finger, the impact will snap their neck. I don't believe that such powerful cartridges are reasonable or prudent choices for the vast majority of amateur shooters.

A big, powerful round you can't hit anything with is effectively useless.

A big, powerful round that goes through the target and wounds of kills someone in the house across the street may, in the long run, turn out to have been a worse choice than a smaller round - or not shooting at all.

Power, penetration, energy transfer, recoil, controllability, wound ballistics, comfort are all factors that a shooter must bring into balance in choosing a weapon for self defense. Choosing an extreme of any factor will seldom result in an optimal outcome.
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Old January 9, 2018, 04:35 PM   #22
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agtman wrote:
In a gunfight, the edge always goes to the larger projectile...
I don't agree. If the larger projectile has so much recoil it causes the shooter to flinch and thus disrupts their aim, the larger projectile could be a 16 inch naval gun for all the good it will do.

Now, if you want to say that provided all candidate cartridges can be handled by the shooter with equal proficiency, the larger projectile enjoys an advantage, I would agree, but not a blanket statement that bigger is always better.
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Old January 9, 2018, 05:02 PM   #23
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This is an excellent article that is very informative;
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel..._FAQ/index.htm

The short version is the most important factor in terminal ballistics is shot placement. Shot placement doesn’t just mean hitting the surface of the target where you aimed - it also means penetrating deeply enough to have the desired effect in a variety of circumstances.

There are a lot of variables at play. Even among expanding bullets, performance from one lot of the same type of bullet and the next lot can vary, sometimes by a lot. There is no perfect answer or that’s what we’d all use for every situation.
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Old January 9, 2018, 05:15 PM   #24
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Two holes are better than one so penetration is key after shot placement. Still I'd rather not get shot with a hollow point.
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Old January 9, 2018, 06:22 PM   #25
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* * * Shot placement doesn’t just mean hitting the surface of the target where you aimed - it also means penetrating deeply enough to have the desired effect in a variety of circumstances.
No, that's exactly wrong.

Accurate shot placement and penetration are two different things.

An accurate shot puts the projectile where it needs to be (say, in the upper thoracic zone on a human target), but it is the penetrative ability of the round (i.e., its sectional density), plus material construction, plus it's velocity that determine how far the bullet will penetrate after surface impact.

Even with accurate shot placement, underpenetration has gotten folks killed.
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