Black soot on 1/2 of case (9mm)

locknloader · January 23, 2018, 10:11 AM

So i just shot some 9mm reloads today, grouped excellent and every bullet fired great no jams, etc.

They are the following specs:

Speer 9mm once fired brass, wet tumbled, reloaded
Berry's 9mm 115gr round nose bullets
4.0-4.1 gr Tite group (hornady LNL has a little variance throw to throw, 3.9-4.3 is the listed range for this bullet on hodgdon website)
OAL 1.140-1.150

I notice that 1/2 of almost every case was covered in black soot (can upload some pics if needed).

What is this soot telling me about my reloads? I don't notice it this extreme on factory made rounds. Usually a little dirty but not 1/2 covered in soot.

briandg · January 23, 2018, 10:29 AM

LOw pressure possibly not expanding cases quickly, inefficient powder burn leaves sooty residue inside chamber after gas escapes around case mouth. Maybe raising charge a bit closer to max.

rodfac · January 23, 2018, 10:35 AM

Good advice from Brian, but if it's giving good accuracy and functioning, I"d say that you're where you need to be!

Soot on the case or in the chamber is a by-product of some brands of powder, regardless of the load level. If raising the charge level reduces the soot accumulation, with the same accuracy and reliability, so be it. Otherwise, a powder change is in order.

Best Regards, Rod

egd · January 23, 2018, 10:36 AM

You didn't say if it was in a pistol or a PCC. If it's a pcc with a blowback action (as almost all are) that is normal. It's not unusual on a pistol either. I've forgotten for sure, but I think it means that your rounds are loaded a little on the light side.
I don't know about titegroup but I believe you could just shorten your oal a tad and that would help. 1.140 - 1.150 seems a little long, especially with a 115 gr bullet. I'm thinking there may not be enough area inside the case for good neck tension. Try 1.130-1.135 and see if that helps.

locknloader · January 23, 2018, 10:37 AM

It was out of a glock 17. Thanks for advice on OAL, i was actually just using up the last of these and switching over to FMJ from now on.

RC20 · January 23, 2018, 01:12 PM

I would weight each charge. While I like electronics scales a beam will give you a quick dump it back or keep it.

It does not take much error with 9mm (and smaller) to get a nasty spike.

egd · January 23, 2018, 01:22 PM

I never saw any real difference between plated and fmj. BUT, I don't load to max either.
Try out the RMR in house fmj rn. great company and great product, just under $80 per K. Shipped.
BTW my oal with 124 is 1.130-1.135, with the RMR bullets.

reddog81 · January 23, 2018, 01:26 PM

I'm pretty sure that's a normal characteristic on tite group. I wouldn't worry about it.

T. O'Heir · January 23, 2018, 01:41 PM

"...difference between plated and fmj..." An FMJ is a jacketed bullet. The plated is not. And FMJ's rarely give the amount of grief plated bullets do. snicker.
What briandg says is the book answer even though it should not be happening with your loads. 4.0 and 4.1 grains of Titegroup are mid range loads. 4.3 being Max there isn't much 'up' to go to. However, Max loads are nothing to be afraid of using.
It might just be that it's the Glock idiosyncrasies everybody talks about for reloading for Glocks.

Nick_C_S · January 23, 2018, 01:49 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm kind of there too.

Given the information, I'd say you've loaded some pretty good ammo. I'm not sure tweaking the recipe would yield any real gains - even if it did clean up your brass.

115 grain bullets don't contact a lot of the case. The bullet is likely dislodging before the TiteGroup is really up n burnin' well. The result is a little blow-by before sufficient pressure has built. And contrary to common belief, TiteGroup actually has a little "slowness" to it. Than can exasperate things a bit. Now I am not saying to switch propellants - not at all - I like your bullet/powder combo. I'm just saying that some case blow-by is not entirely surprising here.

I have lots of semi-auto load recipes that show case blow-by (especially 45 ACP). It happens. By itself, it's usually not an issue. Striving to eliminate it is not necessarily a good direction to go. If the "soot" is not gumming up your gun, I wouldn't worry about it too much. We handload. That's what we do. If you want to experiment around a bit, go for it. But overall, my gut tells me you've made some pretty good ammo.

locknloader · January 23, 2018, 02:51 PM

Ok the incomplete burning makes sense, i was really just curious more than anything what the soot meant. Since they shoot well and don't seem to impair my gun with jams or anything, i'll stick with it since the load range is very small on the tightgroup powder and i'm not looking to blow up my gun. I still have quite a bit of berrys plated bullets i need to shoot up.

@RC20 - i usually pull a case and weight it every few rounds just as a QC check. When i first start working the press, i do this for EVERY case until its throwing the same amount consistently and i'm happy things are in working order.

@egd - The RMR FMJ round nose are what i have coming my way

Can't wait to try them out.

Rangerrich99 · January 23, 2018, 05:02 PM

I use virtually the exact same recipe. Berry's 115 gr. plated RN, 4.1 grains TG, etc.

And i get about the same results as far as soot on one side of the brass. Or I did until recently.

I read somewhere that low pressure can cause this type of charring/soot, so I tried crimping slightly more. By slightly i mean just another 1/8 turn on the die; nothing dramatic. I still get some charring, but significantly less pieces of brass are burnt than before.

P.S. as far as I can tell the sooting doesn't hurt anything. It comes off in the tumbler easily enough. It doesn't take any extra time anyway.

Mike38 · January 23, 2018, 06:39 PM

Quote:

I'm pretty sure that's a normal characteristic on tite group. I wouldn't worry about it.

Yep, Titegroup tends to run a bit on the dirty side. More so on lighter charged loads. I run 3.2 grains in my 9mm. A touch dirty, but very accurate. Meters great, accurate, so I can live with that.

Metal god · January 24, 2018, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Yep, Titegroup tends to run a bit on the dirty side. More so on lighter charged loads.

Maybe on the below minimum side it does . How ever It's by far the cleanest burning powder I use for 9mm but all my loads had best accuracy at the upper end of the charges and I never tried below minimum .

Quote:

3.9-4.3 is the listed range

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry's

Please consult load data books or your powder manufacturers' website for load information. You can use published load data for lead/cast bullets or low to mid-range FMJ data, as long as it is the same weight bullet.

The GDHP bullet which is a platted bullet and Hodgdon website says 4.5 to 4.8gr so that data should be good for the Berry's bullets .

IMHO the OP is a 1/2gr below minimum.

Northof50 · January 24, 2018, 11:02 AM

locknloader - common with low charges on some Glock chambers. I'll get that on my G27 when using TG or CFE - light loads. Also, some 9mm cases are thick. One of the issues I've found with reloading 9 [with range acquired brass] is the variations in brass.

January 23, 2018, 10:11 AM	#1
locknloader Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2017 Posts: 164	Black soot on 1/2 of case (9mm) So i just shot some 9mm reloads today, grouped excellent and every bullet fired great no jams, etc. They are the following specs: Speer 9mm once fired brass, wet tumbled, reloaded Berry's 9mm 115gr round nose bullets 4.0-4.1 gr Tite group (hornady LNL has a little variance throw to throw, 3.9-4.3 is the listed range for this bullet on hodgdon website) OAL 1.140-1.150 I notice that 1/2 of almost every case was covered in black soot (can upload some pics if needed). What is this soot telling me about my reloads? I don't notice it this extreme on factory made rounds. Usually a little dirty but not 1/2 covered in soot.

January 23, 2018, 10:29 AM	#2
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	LOw pressure possibly not expanding cases quickly, inefficient powder burn leaves sooty residue inside chamber after gas escapes around case mouth. Maybe raising charge a bit closer to max. __________________ None.

January 23, 2018, 10:35 AM	#3
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,623	Good advice from Brian, but if it's giving good accuracy and functioning, I"d say that you're where you need to be! Soot on the case or in the chamber is a by-product of some brands of powder, regardless of the load level. If raising the charge level reduces the soot accumulation, with the same accuracy and reliability, so be it. Otherwise, a powder change is in order. Best Regards, Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

January 23, 2018, 01:12 PM	#6
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I would weight each charge. While I like electronics scales a beam will give you a quick dump it back or keep it. It does not take much error with 9mm (and smaller) to get a nasty spike. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

January 23, 2018, 01:41 PM	#9
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...difference between plated and fmj..." An FMJ is a jacketed bullet. The plated is not. And FMJ's rarely give the amount of grief plated bullets do. snicker. What briandg says is the book answer even though it should not be happening with your loads. 4.0 and 4.1 grains of Titegroup are mid range loads. 4.3 being Max there isn't much 'up' to go to. However, Max loads are nothing to be afraid of using. It might just be that it's the Glock idiosyncrasies everybody talks about for reloading for Glocks. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 23, 2018, 10:36 AM	#4
egd Member Join Date: April 15, 2016 Posts: 73	You didn't say if it was in a pistol or a PCC. If it's a pcc with a blowback action (as almost all are) that is normal. It's not unusual on a pistol either. I've forgotten for sure, but I think it means that your rounds are loaded a little on the light side. I don't know about titegroup but I believe you could just shorten your oal a tad and that would help. 1.140 - 1.150 seems a little long, especially with a 115 gr bullet. I'm thinking there may not be enough area inside the case for good neck tension. Try 1.130-1.135 and see if that helps.

January 23, 2018, 10:37 AM	#5
locknloader Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2017 Posts: 164	It was out of a glock 17. Thanks for advice on OAL, i was actually just using up the last of these and switching over to FMJ from now on.

January 23, 2018, 01:22 PM	#7
egd Member Join Date: April 15, 2016 Posts: 73	I never saw any real difference between plated and fmj. BUT, I don't load to max either. Try out the RMR in house fmj rn. great company and great product, just under $80 per K. Shipped. BTW my oal with 124 is 1.130-1.135, with the RMR bullets.

January 23, 2018, 01:26 PM	#8
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	I'm pretty sure that's a normal characteristic on tite group. I wouldn't worry about it.

January 23, 2018, 02:51 PM	#11
locknloader Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2017 Posts: 164	Ok the incomplete burning makes sense, i was really just curious more than anything what the soot meant. Since they shoot well and don't seem to impair my gun with jams or anything, i'll stick with it since the load range is very small on the tightgroup powder and i'm not looking to blow up my gun. I still have quite a bit of berrys plated bullets i need to shoot up. @RC20 - i usually pull a case and weight it every few rounds just as a QC check. When i first start working the press, i do this for EVERY case until its throwing the same amount consistently and i'm happy things are in working order. @egd - The RMR FMJ round nose are what i have coming my way Can't wait to try them out.

January 23, 2018, 05:02 PM	#12
Rangerrich99 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,254	I use virtually the exact same recipe. Berry's 115 gr. plated RN, 4.1 grains TG, etc. And i get about the same results as far as soot on one side of the brass. Or I did until recently. I read somewhere that low pressure can cause this type of charring/soot, so I tried crimping slightly more. By slightly i mean just another 1/8 turn on the die; nothing dramatic. I still get some charring, but significantly less pieces of brass are burnt than before. P.S. as far as I can tell the sooting doesn't hurt anything. It comes off in the tumbler easily enough. It doesn't take any extra time anyway.

January 24, 2018, 11:02 AM	#15
Northof50 Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2018 Location: Northeast USA Posts: 232	locknloader - common with low charges on some Glock chambers. I'll get that on my G27 when using TG or CFE - light loads. Also, some 9mm cases are thick. One of the issues I've found with reloading 9 [with range acquired brass] is the variations in brass.

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