ATF: Reclassification of M855/SS109 ammo as armor-piercing

[maestro pistolero]

"Ultimately, Congress has to define "sporting purposes" because as it is now, that definition is left solely to the Attorney General, who has delegated it to the Director . . . "

I am uncomfortable with the whole sporting purposes limitation on Second Amendment activity. Should Congress act, and let's hope they do, merely refining the definition of sporting purposes would amount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. This clause must be struck.

Post Heller, the sporting purposes clause is an inapt limitation on activity and items associated with the fundamental right to self-defense. And although there are no court cases yet about the militia purpose of the amendment, I believe when it is finally addressed it will make mincemeat of the idea that a sporting purposes limitation on second amendment activity is befitting of a fundamental right to self-defense, or of the ability of the government to raise an effective militia.

Whether the government ever intends to or actually does raise a militia is irrelevant. It is the second amendment, not the government that secures that capability.

While it's true that Heller found a right to self-defense separate from the militia purpose announced in the first clause, the court also said that despite the degree of disconnect created by implements of modern warfare, the court could not allow that separation to change their interpretation of the right. That right must be interpreted according to the common understanding at the time of ratification. Militia members at the time of founding were expected to bring those firearms which they commonly possessed at home, which by the way, were equal to the most lethal bearable arms on the planet.

This is where the common use test would apply securing arms and by obvious implication, common ammunition. (This test cannot be applied in a vacuum however. To do so would be to eliminate any future developments wherein a new, bearable arm design would not yet be common.)

[Aguila Blanca]

There's a thread about M855 in the General Discussion area, also. I don't like to double post, but I posted this in the other thread and I think it's applicable here, as well:

Just received an e-mail from the owner of Ares Armor citing a former BATFE agent, who provides a very insightful explanation of the impetus to ban the M855 ammo:

http://aresarmor.com/store/NewsArtic...5%20bancontent

The definition of Armor Piercing (AP) Ammunition is;

"A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;"

This definition was agreed upon in the mid-'80s between the pro-gun and anti-gun forces as a middle-ground against the Senator Charles Schumer's catch phrase "cop-killer bullets". At first it was suggested that any bullet be banned which can penetrate a cop's vest. Law enforcement and many others were all for that definition until the NRA fought it because the unthinking hadn't realized that it would ban ALL rifle ammunition.

That was the only definition of AP ammunition until the Swedish M39B (9mm Luger) cartridge arrived on the surplus market in the late 80's. Being intended for use in the Carl Gustav M45 (Swedish K) submachinegun, it had a much thicker jacket than normal 9mm Luger cartridges and a higher velocity, which allows it to penetrate soft body armor.

So, since the problem didn't fit the solution (the M39B didn't qualify as AP), a new definition was added to the definition of AP ammo. It was added that AP ammo would include;

"A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile".

Notice that the definition didn't just say M39B, because that would leave the possibility to re-name the cartridge all allow it to come into the U.S.

There's more -- a lot more.

He ends with what I picked up as soon as I read the definitions:

Here's the real tool that should be used to fight the ban. Point out to ATF that the bullet of M855 is not within the definition of Armor Piercing ammunition. Because the bullet is partially made of lead, it is NOT "constructed entirely from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;" Therefore the definition of AP does not apply.

[44 AMP]

"Sporting purposes" is, and always was a "red herring". It is also today, a textbook example of the creeping incrementalism allowed to a bureaucracy through a poorly worded law.

The "sporting purposes" concept was created as justification to restrict imports. NOT as any basis for what citizens could possess. It was a trade protection measure, and supported by our major gunmakers at the time.

As long as the banned guns/ammo could be made in the US, there was no threat seen to our 2nd Amendment rights. At that time.

Today, that "sporting purposes" test is being applied (and applied unfairly) not just to what can be imported, but also to what can be made and even owned (in some cases) in the US.

And "sporting purposes" is defined in law. The definition is that the Sec Treas. has the authority to decide what sporting purposes are.

And, other than a few individuals, Congress doesn't give a rat's posterior about what rules the BATFE makes up, or how they affect us. HOWEVER, they do care a lot about their authority. I think the way to fight the ATF reclassifying M855 ammo is not to argue about what it does, or doesn't do from a pistol, or even what it is made of.

The argument that I think will be most effective in getting Congressional "help" is that the ATF is encroaching on Congressional authority.

This isn't a game of reality, it is a game of political power, and pride.

If we can get Congress to see that, in this case, it is a matter of the ATF imposing their opinion where it is actually Congress's role to decide, we stand a chance.

Get some of them convinced that Congress should not have given the Sec Tres (or his delegates) the sole authority to make these decisions. Make it a battle between govt branches & agencies (which it is, and should be seen as such), and not about the physical aspects of the ammo.

WE have leverage on Congress (not a lot, but some) through the election process. We don't have that against the Executive branch's minion agencies. We've seen, and continue to see how much public opinion matters, and to whom.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

This isn't a game of reality, it is a game of political power, and pride.

If we can get Congress to see that, in this case, it is a matter of the ATF imposing their opinion where it is actually Congress's role to decide, we stand a chance.

Get some of them convinced that Congress should not have given the Sec Tres (or his delegates) the sole authority to make these decisions. Make it a battle between govt branches & agencies (which it is, and should be seen as such), and not about the physical aspects of the ammo.

WE have leverage on Congress (not a lot, but some) through the election process. We don't have that against the Executive branch's minion agencies. We've seen, and continue to see how much public opinion matters, and to whom.

Unfortunately, here is a case where we are truly not all equal. We all have a right to express our opinions to our congresscritters. In my case, I am blessed cursed with having two senators AND a representative who are avidly and adamently anti-gun. None of them have ever seen an anti-RKBA proposal they didn't support. So, for me to write to them and ask for their assistance in countering this proposed ruling would be a complete waste of my time and whatever ink, paper, postage, toner, and/or computer bandwidth I expend.

I can only pray that those who live in states with more honest congresscritters will make the effort to bring this to their attention and gain their support.

[Mosin-Marauder]

I contacted both of my senators and both representatives for my area regarding this. Thankfully, all four are pro-2A.

[CowTowner]

o, for me to write to them and ask for their assistance in countering this proposed ruling would be a complete waste of my time and whatever ink, paper, postage, toner, and/or computer bandwidth I expend.

I have a congresscritter just like yours. He still gets the emails. Why? Because I refuse to stand by and watch. He supposed to represent me, the citizen. I try to make sure he knows where I stand.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Mosin-Marauder

I contacted both of my senators and both representatives for my area regarding this. Thankfully, all four are pro-2A.

???

You only have ONE representative in the House. Your state has two senators, but each congressional district has only one representative, and you can only vote in one congressional district. (At least, in theory.)

[44 AMP]

You can express your opinion to ANY and ALL of our elected representatives if you want. And they all have a degree of responsibility to listen to you, as you are a US citizen. That's the theory.

If you aren't their citizen, they're not really going to care as much, and the agenda driven politicians don't even listen to their own citizens much, that's the way the world is.

[mehavey]

Does ANYbody on this board actually believe that ANYthing submitted by the
public against this move will stop ANYthing associated w/ this ammunition ban ?

Really ?





Just the beginning folks.....

[540mope]

We saw it on every gun related forum, including this one...

"""Obama's not going to take our guns or ammo away...only an idiot thinks that will happen...you're paranoid and delusional if you believe that"""


tsk, tsk, tsk....looks like the "tin foil hat wearing ammo hoarders" were right all along.

[Mosin-Marauder]

I typed in my area code and got Virginia Foxx and Robert Pittenger for some reason. Oddly enough he is the representative to where I will be moving shortly. I figured contacting the other wouldn't hurt the cause. 2 is better than 1 and all that.

[budrock56]

They're trying to tighten the noose on freedoms of the people.

[pturner67]

Banning green tip is just the beginning.

5.45x39 will go through bullet-proof vests
FN Fiveseven will go through bullet-proof vests
7.62x39 will go through bullet-proof vests
5.56 will go through 3a law enforcement body armor

I think it's a good guess that other ammunition will be banned eventually.

[Tom Servo]

FN Fiveseven will go through bullet-proof vests

True, but I don't know of any 5.7x28 ammo that has steel content in the bullet.

[Bella]

They should just come out and say, "If you like your guns, then you can keep your guns."

[rickyrick]

The bottom line is this... The ammo retailers advertise things to have certain characteristics, whether or they've been designed as such or not...

In the case of green tip, I've seen numerous ads over the years labeling it as "penetrator" ammo

Marketing has proven the legal downfall of many firearm related items

[Kimio]

Sounds like we're darned if we do, and darned if we don't if you ask me.

[pturner67]

True, but I don't know of any 5.7x28 ammo that has steel content in the bullet.

Maybe so. From what I have read and seen in videos, steel content is not required in order to penetrate body armor/bullet proof vests. But I feel that the content of the bullet is not the concern for those looking to exploit the situation.

As has been said before, green tip is just the beginning or "test bed" for future bannings.

[Crankgrinder]

I'm not sure if it will pass or not. From what I understand the bullets construction in its materials and design does not meet the criteria to be legally banned and a ban on it now would overturn thirty years of law and that's hard to do. The law we have bans ap pistol ammunition and the .223 was never designed as a pistol round but "pistols" if that's what you want to call them have been made for them. In my book that doesn't make it a pistol round. There are "pistols" that shoot .308 also and it is not a "pistol round" because of that. Almost any hunting round has the power to defeat body armor but bans on it have not been considered regardless of its materials made from. This has nothing to do with "armor piercing" because we all know m855 is not. It is about political disdain for ar15s only, and I see it as an underhanded thing that a desperate person would try.

[Jo6pak]

I cannot state this enough.

IF YOU HAVE TIME TO READ THIS FORUM AND TYPE A COMMENT, YOU HAVE TIME TO TAKE ACTION!!!

If you have not done so already. Contact the BATFE, and you reps and senators. Sign the Whitehouse Petition.

You may not think it will do any good. But doing nothing will DEFINATELY do no good.

This is not simply an issue with SS109/M885 ammunition, this is an issue with unelected bureaucrats arbitrarily bending laws to make them fit into an agenda. It's a frighteningly reoccurring theme lately with the 7N6 ammo, Sig brace, and now the SS109.
Who knows what will be next?

[Bella]

I do agree with those of you that suggest doing something to try to stop this. Yes, things are definitely out of kilter in Washington. But, not to be pessimistic, I wouldn't hold out hope.

Last November, America spoke loud and clear at the polling booth. That is our ultimate voice. Raise your hand if you see any positive changes on the horizon.

[JeepHammer]

I have respect for everyone and their particular view point,

Here is mine,

I have a good friend, 4 tours in the sand box, Master Trooper with the Indiana State Police, and the post armor.

He is a RABID firearms supporter!
Thinks that anyone without a Felony or Mental Illness should be able to own full automatic without special regesteration...
If that tells you anything.

What he found out is...

1. In the 80s, the tungsten core bullets would slice through 'Soft' body armor like a hot knife through butter,
Penetrate 'Trauma' plates like butter,
Continue through the body and out the back side without slowing down much...
Even when fired from handgun length barrels.

The Tungsten core maker stopped making the cores,
So manufacturers started using steel.

2. Congress/BATFE passed the 'Cop Killer' bullet ban,
No 'Armor Piercing' "Hand Gun" ammo.
No HAND GUN 'AP' AMMO, PERIOD.
This included 'Duplex' rounds, steel cores (round balls, darts, pointed cores) in hand gun ammo.

No restrictions on RIFLE ammo.

3. The BATFE has registered more than 3 MILLION AR style semi-auto 'Pistols', and that was just the last 10 years or so...

AR Pistols had been around for a while, but in the last 10 years or so, they have been mass produced and retailed in VOLUME.

4. This puts the .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm (NATO) rounds SQUARELY in the 'Hand Gun' category since the AR style pistols are being mass produced.

This is NOT just a few guys building a 'Pistol' out of an AR anymore.
No one with a brain can argue this point, over 3 MILLION in 10 years is a TREND, no question about a .223/5.56 handgun anymore.

5. While no Police/Federal employees have been killed (YET... At this time, today)
These SS109/M855 rounds are showing up in AR style handguns,
Have been used in shootouts, and are readily available.

6. One reason this is getting attention,
And not widely publicized,

The DRUG CARTELS in MEXICO are using these rounds in cross border shootings.
Since most of the weapons/ammo in Mexico is coming from the US, it was inevitable.

Border Patrol vehicles have been turned into swiss cheese by these rounds, and it's scaring the hell out of the Border Patrol and Homeland Security,
Which is pushing this particular 'Ban'.

7. The Indiana State Police have found an increasing number of AR 'Pistols', both registered as pistols, and illegal 'Shorties' top ends on rifle lowers,
More than 300 last year alone.

In the south west district alone, more than 40 magazines of 'Green Tip' ammo have shown up in search/seizures in the last year.
Much of this ammo is showing up in 'Hispanic' gang related raids. It seems to be real popular with the Hispanic bad guys for some reason...

To be fair, most of the 'Hispanic Gang' members are NOT 'Mexican',
Mostly from Central American countries, not Mexico.

------------------

PERSONAL FEELINGS ABOUT 'GREEN TIP' AMMO AND CRIMINALS...

It's just a matter of time until we lose a good trooper to the 'Green Tip' that WILL PENETRATE the ISP body armor, In one side, out the other in on site testing last year at my local range...

---------------

PERSONAL OPINION,

I'm what some would call a 'Long Range' shooter,
300 to 600 yards regularly,

I find the very idea of an AR 'Pistol' an absurd idea,
Built by people that either just want to do it without asking *IF* THEY SHOULD do it,
Or what the ramifications will be....

The .223/5.56 round is a long barrel RIFLE round,
Always has been, always will be.
And pumping it through a pistol length barrel is a waste of time and ammo,
Along with creating problems for the legitimate rifle shooters.

I don't find the 'Green Tip' accurate, so I don't use them.
This won't make a difference in my reloading, or my factory ammo purchases.

The AR 'Pistol' is a device for turning money into noise, and nothing more.

It's a LOUSY Personal Defense Weapon,
It's ILLEGAL when fired from the shoulder,
It's muzzle velocity makes it VERY inaccurate,
It's nothing more than a 'Show Off' device for kids of all ages that haven't grown up yet, or respect firearms...
Probably shouldn't own firearms of any kind until they learn respect and proper usage...

But like I clearly stated, that's personal opinion.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by JeepHammer

3. The BATFE has registered more than 3 MILLION AR style semi-auto 'Pistols', and that was just the last 10 years or so...

But the BATFE does not "register" AR pistols. As handguns, they are subject to the dealer having the buyer fill out a 4473, but that stays in the gun shop. It doesn't immediately get added to a registry somewhere.

Are you perhaps thinking of short-barrel rifle versions of the AR? You need a $200 tax stamp for those, so they must be on a list or registry of some sort.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by JeepHammer

4. This puts the .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm (NATO) rounds SQUARELY in the 'Hand Gun' category since the AR style pistols are being mass produced.

AR15 "pistols" are pistols that make a Walker Colt look like a pocket pistol. They weight around 4.75lbs and even with a 10" barrel, are just barely under (about 25.5") the minimum overall length for a rifle (26") under federal law. So essentially these "pistols" are between 0.5lb-3lbs lighter and 0.5" shorter than a rifle. They aren't concealable. Nobody is going to be tucking one into their waistband and going out to sell drugs. They are barely more concealable than perfectly legal rifles - and often a lot less reliable.

Border Patrol vehicles have been turned into swiss cheese by these rounds, and it's scaring the hell out of the Border Patrol and Homeland Security

Yeah, that's patent nonsense. M855 is ball ammo with a 10gr mild steel cap. It is pretty much the same as regular jacketed FMJ ammo in every way except the steel makes it longer for the same weight (better ballistic coefficient) and gives it enough hardness to penetrate 10ga mild steel at extreme distances (600yds) where normal ball bleeds off too much energy due to the worse BC. They aren't any more dangerous to Border Patrol vehicles than ball ammo. In fact, problems with vehicles and other barriers lead both the Marines and Army to drop M855 and change to more effective rounds.

It's just a matter of time until we lose a good trooper to the 'Green Tip' that WILL PENETRATE the ISP body armor, In one side, out the other in on site testing last year at my local range...

The only thing "green tip" ammo does better than regular FMJ ammo is penetrate 10ga mild steel at 600yds and have a better ballistic coefficient. However, ALL 5.56x45mm ammo will penetrate soft body armor. Even the small, fragile 45gr JHP varmint rounds will penetrate soft body armor. Banning "green tip" ammo does exactly nothing to improve officer safety; but it does create an enormous burden for law-abiding citizens.

For example, you live in Illinois. While possession of "green tip" ammo will not be illegal under federal law, it will be illegal under your state law. If you are a competitive target shooter who has purchased a bunch of M855 in order to practice cheaply and live in Illinois, you are going to be in violation of state law as soon as M855 is reclassified. You are now a criminal and officers are still in the exact same amount of danger as previously.

You could even argue officers are in more danger; because while M855 will not penetrate Level III AR500 Plate Armor, regular old lead FMJ will penetrate Level III AR500 Plate Armor because of its higher velocity. So by forcing M855 off the market, you are basically pushing people into ammunition that has better penetration characteristics (though once again, any rifle caliber ammunition will penetrate soft body armor - that's why it is rifle caliber ammo).

And you should be very involved and very concerned about this memo.

1) Did you notice the part where ATF argues that there is no "particular sporting purpose" for any type of multi-shot handgun? Have you considered the implications of allowing that statement to go unchallenged?

2) Are you OK with ATF banning one of the most popular sporting types of ammunition in the United States just because there is a single multi-shot handgun in the ordinary channels of commerce? In this memo, ATF is saying that even if 40 million shooters use that ammo every day for sporting purposes, they can (and will) ban it if a single multi-shot handgun chambered for that ammo enters the ordinary channels of commerce. THIS is how ATF proposes to interpret the words "primarily intended for sporting purpose" in the legislation.

If you don't have a problem with either of those things, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

By the way, Rep. Bob Goodlatte's letter (Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee that oversees ATF and their budget) on this matter has gathered 172 co-signers in just two days. The Senate is also going to take up this issue; so keep up the pressure! Your communications are being heard.

172 co-signers means we are only 44 members short in the House of having a majority necessary to pass legislation clarifying this matter in the House - and since that is just after two days of effort, chances are good we can hit that number with proper encouragement from constituents.