Scope puzzlement

**Aguila Blanca** · April 23, 2018, 05:54 PM

I attended an Appleseed shoot this past weekend. I've been curious about Appleseed for several years but never had a real urge to go. The daughter of a friend just enlisted in the Army. We were discussing ways to get her some familiarization without the issues of a kid resisting instruction from a parent figure, and I mentioned that there were a couple of Appleseeds in our state before her reporting date. So ... we all went.

I had some issues with a bad back and a bum hip impeding the transitions between positions, but my biggest issue was my rifle. I took a Marlin 795, set up with a Simmons 4x32 rimfire scope. From the prone position, I could NOT eliminate vignetting -- the image wasn't filling the full lens area, and that (if I understand it correctly) introduces parallax errors if you can't keep the smaller circle centered in the larger circle.

Any suggestions? I'm leaning toward adding a butt pad to the stock but I'd prefer not to start throwing things at it until I better understand the issue. I took the rifle out this afternoon and, from a standing position, it's perfect.

1stmar · April 23, 2018, 07:35 PM

AB maybe the scope needs to be moved back some. Should have a 3” window to deal with meybe prones is ok but at the outer edge of the 3” eye relief and ylu just need to move it back.

SSA · April 23, 2018, 11:17 PM

Sounds like you kind of answered your own question. Bad back, prone position, cheap scope.
I had a Simmons 4x, and it's a usable scope, but it has its limitations.
And like you said, standing, you can get your eye in the right position.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 23, 2018, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stmar

AB maybe the scope needs to be moved back some. Should have a 3” window to deal with meybe prones is ok but at the outer edge of the 3” eye relief and ylu just need to move it back.

Actually, the scope would need to be moved forward to cure the problem in prone, but that's not possible because it's already as far forward as the dovetail on the receiver allows. I'm still sort of thinking that a buttplate spacer might help, but I'm also looking at scopes with adjustable parallax. If I can get rid of parallax, it won't matter if I have nignetting.

FrankenMauser · April 24, 2018, 12:03 AM

Ditch the scope.
With one exception, every Simmons 4x that has been through my family has ended up getting a bullet through it. (And that exception is one that's on a BB gun, as a joke ... because the barrel is duct-taped to the receiver.)

Try something at least slightly better, like a Tasco Pronghorn 4x. It's still a low end scope, but better than the Simmons, in my opinion.
Whatever you do, keep in mind eye relief and how it relates to the Simmons (especially on the cheap end). There isn't much point in replacement if the new one is just as bad.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 24, 2018, 03:05 AM

I'm of the opinion that Simmons, Tasco, BSA, and several other brands all come out the same factory in China and that there's no difference from one to another. To get a real jump in quality I'd have to move into a scope that's much more than I want to put on a rifle that sells for under $200.

Eye relief is certainly the issue, but all the 4x scopes I've seen seems to have a 4-inch eye relief. That works fine for me standing or sitting at a bench, but not in the prone position. Maybe it's a factor of the rifle really being a "youth" rifle, and too small for an adult on the upper side of six feet tall. I'm considering that adding a 3/4" thick recoil pad might help alleviate the issue.

HiBC · April 24, 2018, 04:54 AM

I think you are correct that it is a combination of eye relief and rifle fit.

One place you MIGHT be able to find a small gain is focusing the eyepiece.It might not help,but focus the crosshairs against the sky or a cloud.You need that,anyway.I found I could get some eye relief adjustment that way on handgun scopes.
You might move the rings on the scope to a different side of the W+E turret.

You know...if you are over 6 feet and you have a youth size rifle....There are a lot of Youths who could really appreciate having a rifle that fit them....

Then for an over 6 footer(like me) there is the Rem 513,in T or S,some of the other 5XX series,the Win 52,yeah,kind of high $, but there are a few other 22's that are adult size.They are out there.

To just gain some LOP you could just scribe around the buttplate to a block of wood,disc sand to the line and fit it as a spacer .It could be undone real easy.
Just be careful with screw size so you don't open up the original screw fit.
I poked around on E-bay for you.Confirm this before you spend money,but it might be that the model 60,70,and 795 can use the same stock.Tube vs box mags may be an issue
There were a number of them for sale.
Here is one example.There was a picatinny rail there,too,a Badger for $25

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Glenfield-M....c100005.m1851

You can get a $40 replacement stock,save the original,and cut,glue,and shape blocks to make it fit you.Then use some sanding/filling primer and paint it.

Mobuck · April 24, 2018, 06:39 AM

"The daughter of a friend just enlisted in the Army. We were discussing ways to get her some familiarization without the issues of a kid resisting instruction "
The ARMY will teach her all she needs to know and the "resisting" thing will get sweated out of her.
Two of my 22 rifles have Sightron 2.5x scopes on them. These scopes are pretty good and have parallax set for the closer ranges of the 22's. A slip-on buttpad would work for your purposes.

the possum · April 24, 2018, 12:12 PM

Quote:

To get a real jump in quality I'd have to move into a scope that's much more than I want to put on a rifle that sells for under $200.

So... what you're really saying here is ya need to buy a tricked out super accurate .22 for around $500-$700, so you can justify adding a $200 scope onto it. See how simple that is?

Hey man, no thanks needed, I'm always glad to help a fella out.

Really, I see these as two separate issues. If a $50 scope won't do the job you need done, then ya gotta bite the bullet & get something better. That has nothing to do with how much you paid for the rifle.

T. O'Heir · April 24, 2018, 12:21 PM

"...image wasn't filling the full lens area..." Indicates an eye relief issue. Simmons kit is about as low end as it gets. Serviceable but low end. Savage quit using Simmons scopes on their Package rifle for a reason. You might have an LOP issue too.
"...a bad back and a bum hip..." That'll cause you grief no matter what scope you have.
"...The ARMY will teach her..." Yep. And it'll be better for her not to have any help. The Army wants everything done the Army's way.

RC20 · April 24, 2018, 01:13 PM

Quote:

"The daughter of a friend just enlisted in the Army. We were discussing ways to get her some familiarization without the issues of a kid resisting instruction "

Hmm, that had me rolling on the floor (and apologies no meanness intended)

Not exactly the career choice for someone with that issue but ...... a bit like after 9/11 when they found a number of arsonists were carrying fuel around in trucks....... ahhh maybe restrict them to DRY cargo?

We can guess one of two outcomes there.

1. She will adjust
2. She will not adjust.

Me, I never was given the chance to resist authority - well I was, but the consequences were far worse than the following of whatever the instructions were (and usually quite correctly given and happily received)

lockedcj7 · April 24, 2018, 08:12 PM

I also attended an Appleseed this past weekend and experienced "fish-eye" in the prone and seated positions. I was ready for it since this was my second event and I already had my scope as far forward as it would go. It's not a scope price issue. I used a 4x Leupold on my first event and a Japan Nikon 2-7 compact this time. Frankly, I doubt parallax is much of an issue as long as the little hole is centered. I made rifleman with a 212, shot a 233 and then Distinguished with a 240. Any flyers that cost me a perfect 250 were purely my fault.

pblanc · April 25, 2018, 08:49 AM

I shot an Appleseed last weekend as well. My rifle was a Ruger 10/22 and I had a scope mounted on the stock Ruger accessory rail. The Ruger rail is a combo type with a central 3/8" dovetail rail and an outer Weaver rail.

I used a Hawke Sport Optics Vantage 3-9x40 rifle scope with adjustable objective (AO) for parallax correction and it worked pretty well. It is a scope you might want to consider if you wind up changing scopes. Amazon has this model available for just over $100 and there is also a Hawke Vantage 2-7x32 model with AO for $100 that should also work well.

Another better but more expensive option with AO is the Nikon Prostaff Target EFR 3-9x40 which is very popular with Appleseed shooters. This usually retails for around $190 but I have occasionally seen it on sale for $150.

Most non-AO rimfire scopes are set to be parallax-free at 50 yards. But when shooting at 25 meters, there can be significant potential parallax error with these scopes. Plus, your focus on the target simply won't be as sharp with a non-AO scope.

The prone position will almost certainly require your scope to be mounted with the ocular further forward than what might seem comfortable for shooting sitting or standing, and especially when shooting from a bench. You will not be able to move your head forward or back very much at all when prone, so you need to set your scope up to work in this position. You have much greater leeway to adjust your head position when standing or sitting by turkey necking. Also, if you do switch to a variable power scope, the eyebox will shorten and eye relief will be less as the magnification increases, so adjust your scope position to work with the highest magnification setting.

Some Appleseed shooters advise setting the scope very far forward so that the ocular is about even with the back face of the receiver on a Ruger 10/22. I don't have my scope that far forward, but I have added a recoil pad to the stock of my rifle to increase the length of pull by about 1 1/2". I did have to mess around with the scope position quite a bit while prone until I got it in a spot that worked. Unless you are using a very short scope, you will almost certainly need to use extension rings, or at least one extension ring in the forward position, or a cantilever-type one piece mount to get your scope far enough forward.

With the magnification set on maximum for a variable zoom scope, mount the ocular as far rearward as you can without any vignetting in the prone position. That will provide plenty of eye relief for lower magnifications or for shooting standing, sitting, or kneeling. You may also need to add a some type of a comb riser pad or sleeve to your butt stock to allow for a proper cheek weld, since the optical axis of your scope will almost certainly be higher than for your iron sights.

Congratulations to lockedcj7 for shooting a 240. My high score on the AQT was only a 233, but this was my first Appleseed. I also have issues with mobility on the transition stages having undergone hip replacement surgery in the not too distant past, and having a bad knee to boot.

Don Fischer · April 25, 2018, 11:00 AM

What is this Appleseed?

pblanc · April 25, 2018, 01:32 PM

Here is a link to Project Appleseed:

http://appleseedinfo.org/

The organization might come off as somewhat politicized, but it really is not. The founders and volunteer instructors of Appleseed are clearly pro-Second Amendment and there is considerable admiration for the Patriot Founding Fathers and those colonists who participated in the battle of Lexington and Concord on April 19, 1775.

The events are part history lesson and part instruction in three-position rifle target shooting. Most Appleseed events are conducted on short ranges at 25 meters using scaled (reduced) targets to simulate human upper torsos at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. At that short range, 22 lr rifles work very well and wind and ballistic drop are really not factors. Most shooters use small bore rifles at the 25 meter shoots because they are much more economical, but it is OK to use center-fire rifles as well.

The history part covers largely the events of April 19, 1775 but also somewhat the events preceding and following. It is really pretty interesting.

Instructional topics covered are those of basic positional rifle shooting as has been taught by the US Army and USMC and include proper posture and hold in the standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone positions including the use of a sling for stabilization. Also open sight or optics zeroing using the minute of angle concept. Other basic concepts taught are those that apply to any target firearm shooting: sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, front sight focus, proper trigger squeeze, and follow through. Safety is emphasized with attention to line commands that apply to most group target shoots.

The events are also a bit of an informal competition since some courses of fire are scored. Project Appleseed uses the same targets that are used by the US Army for rifle qualification on short ranges, the so-called Army Qualification Target (AQT) again using silhouette type targets scaled in size to simulate longer ranges. Here is the typical AQT course of fire in four stages:

http://www.libertysprice.org/oldsite/aqt.htm

Here is what the AQT target looks like. One of each of the four rows of targets is shot in each stage:

The time limits for the second and third stages have been lengthened a bit to 55 and 65 seconds respectively. The rules for the rapid fire transitional stages are quite similar to those used by the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) for their trophy rifle matches except that any power optic may be used.

Project Appleseed also has "known distance" events for center-fire rifle. These are shot at actual distances using a non-reduced target. The same 20-25" wide upper torso silhouette target is shot at 100, 200, 300, 400 and sometimes 500 yards. The same AQT course of fire is used but scoring might be a bit different. Obviously, with these "known" or "actual" distance events, wind reading and accommodating for ballistic drop using scope "doping" or hold overs becomes critical to good scores.

Overall, Appleseed events, apart from being a lot of fun and a significant challenge for most, offer very cost-effective instruction in the basics of rifle target shooting regardless of the participant's prior experience or skill level.

zukiphile · April 25, 2018, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Actually, the scope would need to be moved forward to cure the problem in prone, but that's not possible because it's already as far forward as the dovetail on the receiver allows. I'm still sort of thinking that a buttplate spacer might help, but I'm also looking at scopes with adjustable parallax. If I can get rid of parallax, it won't matter if I have nignetting.

The buttplate spacer might cause problems with your standing position.

There isn't getting around the fact that your head is going to be closer in prone than it was standing or sitting. You do need more rail. Here is a link to a riser that might be suitable.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/11mm-to-20m...-/152140919083

I would mount a shotgun scope with very generous eye relief. This Barska has a six inch eye relief,

https://www.opticsplanet.com/barska-...cle-scope.html

...but more importantly, it has a long zone in which it gives a reasonable sight picture, so it will work for standing and prone. As for parallax, I think if you tape something to the stock to give you a good cheekweld, you'll find that parallax will not be a determinative problem.

I hate to throw money at a problem, but I can't think of a free way to fix this problem.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 29, 2018, 09:36 AM

I'm sure there isn't a free way to cure the problem, other than using scrap lumber to build a butt stock extension. That Barska scope looks interesting. Thanks for the link.

I have a slip-on recoil pad on order from Pachmayr. That should add about 3/4 of an inch to the pull. I don't know if that's enough, but it should help. I may also tinker with adjusting the parallax to 25 meters (even though the scope isn't supposed to be AO, apparently you can unscrew the outer ring on the objective and and screw the objective lens in or out to change the parallax distance -- hopefully without losing the nitrogen charge).

zukiphile · April 30, 2018, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I may also tinker with adjusting the parallax to 25 meters (even though the scope isn't supposed to be AO, apparently you can unscrew the outer ring on the objective and and screw the objective lens in or out to change the parallax distance -- hopefully without losing the nitrogen charge).

I watched a fellow do that on youtube once. That's a bold move I've not tried.

I will note that I've used scope set for a 100 yards parallax at 25 and 50 yards. I can get single dime sized hole accuracy at 25 yards and less than a quarter sized group at 50, but I have a very solid cheek weld.

If you compress it and add layers, pipe insulation can be pretty firm. Dollar Store pool noodles can work too. This thread conveys the idea:

https://www.m40rifle.com/forum/gener...ised-cheekrest

April 23, 2018, 05:54 PM	#1
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	Scope puzzlement I attended an Appleseed shoot this past weekend. I've been curious about Appleseed for several years but never had a real urge to go. The daughter of a friend just enlisted in the Army. We were discussing ways to get her some familiarization without the issues of a kid resisting instruction from a parent figure, and I mentioned that there were a couple of Appleseeds in our state before her reporting date. So ... we all went. I had some issues with a bad back and a bum hip impeding the transitions between positions, but my biggest issue was my rifle. I took a Marlin 795, set up with a Simmons 4x32 rimfire scope. From the prone position, I could NOT eliminate vignetting -- the image wasn't filling the full lens area, and that (if I understand it correctly) introduces parallax errors if you can't keep the smaller circle centered in the larger circle. Any suggestions? I'm leaning toward adding a butt pad to the stock but I'd prefer not to start throwing things at it until I better understand the issue. I took the rifle out this afternoon and, from a standing position, it's perfect.

April 24, 2018, 12:03 AM	#5
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Ditch the scope. With one exception, every Simmons 4x that has been through my family has ended up getting a bullet through it. (And that exception is one that's on a BB gun, as a joke ... because the barrel is duct-taped to the receiver.) Try something at least slightly better, like a Tasco Pronghorn 4x. It's still a low end scope, but better than the Simmons, in my opinion. Whatever you do, keep in mind eye relief and how it relates to the Simmons (especially on the cheap end). There isn't much point in replacement if the new one is just as bad. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

April 24, 2018, 04:54 AM	#7
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	I think you are correct that it is a combination of eye relief and rifle fit. One place you MIGHT be able to find a small gain is focusing the eyepiece.It might not help,but focus the crosshairs against the sky or a cloud.You need that,anyway.I found I could get some eye relief adjustment that way on handgun scopes. You might move the rings on the scope to a different side of the W+E turret. You know...if you are over 6 feet and you have a youth size rifle....There are a lot of Youths who could really appreciate having a rifle that fit them.... Then for an over 6 footer(like me) there is the Rem 513,in T or S,some of the other 5XX series,the Win 52,yeah,kind of high $, but there are a few other 22's that are adult size.They are out there. To just gain some LOP you could just scribe around the buttplate to a block of wood,disc sand to the line and fit it as a spacer .It could be undone real easy. Just be careful with screw size so you don't open up the original screw fit. I poked around on E-bay for you.Confirm this before you spend money,but it might be that the model 60,70,and 795 can use the same stock.Tube vs box mags may be an issue There were a number of them for sale. Here is one example.There was a picatinny rail there,too,a Badger for $25 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Glenfield-M....c100005.m1851 You can get a $40 replacement stock,save the original,and cut,glue,and shape blocks to make it fit you.Then use some sanding/filling primer and paint it. Last edited by HiBC; April 24, 2018 at 06:08 AM.

April 24, 2018, 12:21 PM	#10
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...image wasn't filling the full lens area..." Indicates an eye relief issue. Simmons kit is about as low end as it gets. Serviceable but low end. Savage quit using Simmons scopes on their Package rifle for a reason. You might have an LOP issue too. "...a bad back and a bum hip..." That'll cause you grief no matter what scope you have. "...The ARMY will teach her..." Yep. And it'll be better for her not to have any help. The Army wants everything done the Army's way. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

April 24, 2018, 08:12 PM	#12
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	I also attended an Appleseed this past weekend and experienced "fish-eye" in the prone and seated positions. I was ready for it since this was my second event and I already had my scope as far forward as it would go. It's not a scope price issue. I used a 4x Leupold on my first event and a Japan Nikon 2-7 compact this time. Frankly, I doubt parallax is much of an issue as long as the little hole is centered. I made rifleman with a 212, shot a 233 and then Distinguished with a 240. Any flyers that cost me a perfect 250 were purely my fault. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

April 23, 2018, 07:35 PM	#2
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	AB maybe the scope needs to be moved back some. Should have a 3” window to deal with meybe prones is ok but at the outer edge of the 3” eye relief and ylu just need to move it back.

April 23, 2018, 11:17 PM	#3
SSA Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Posts: 641	Sounds like you kind of answered your own question. Bad back, prone position, cheap scope. I had a Simmons 4x, and it's a usable scope, but it has its limitations. And like you said, standing, you can get your eye in the right position.

April 24, 2018, 03:05 AM	#6
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	I'm of the opinion that Simmons, Tasco, BSA, and several other brands all come out the same factory in China and that there's no difference from one to another. To get a real jump in quality I'd have to move into a scope that's much more than I want to put on a rifle that sells for under $200. Eye relief is certainly the issue, but all the 4x scopes I've seen seems to have a 4-inch eye relief. That works fine for me standing or sitting at a bench, but not in the prone position. Maybe it's a factor of the rifle really being a "youth" rifle, and too small for an adult on the upper side of six feet tall. I'm considering that adding a 3/4" thick recoil pad might help alleviate the issue.

April 24, 2018, 06:39 AM	#8
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"The daughter of a friend just enlisted in the Army. We were discussing ways to get her some familiarization without the issues of a kid resisting instruction " The ARMY will teach her all she needs to know and the "resisting" thing will get sweated out of her. Two of my 22 rifles have Sightron 2.5x scopes on them. These scopes are pretty good and have parallax set for the closer ranges of the 22's. A slip-on buttpad would work for your purposes.

April 25, 2018, 08:49 AM	#13
pblanc Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 697	I shot an Appleseed last weekend as well. My rifle was a Ruger 10/22 and I had a scope mounted on the stock Ruger accessory rail. The Ruger rail is a combo type with a central 3/8" dovetail rail and an outer Weaver rail. I used a Hawke Sport Optics Vantage 3-9x40 rifle scope with adjustable objective (AO) for parallax correction and it worked pretty well. It is a scope you might want to consider if you wind up changing scopes. Amazon has this model available for just over $100 and there is also a Hawke Vantage 2-7x32 model with AO for $100 that should also work well. Another better but more expensive option with AO is the Nikon Prostaff Target EFR 3-9x40 which is very popular with Appleseed shooters. This usually retails for around $190 but I have occasionally seen it on sale for $150. Most non-AO rimfire scopes are set to be parallax-free at 50 yards. But when shooting at 25 meters, there can be significant potential parallax error with these scopes. Plus, your focus on the target simply won't be as sharp with a non-AO scope. The prone position will almost certainly require your scope to be mounted with the ocular further forward than what might seem comfortable for shooting sitting or standing, and especially when shooting from a bench. You will not be able to move your head forward or back very much at all when prone, so you need to set your scope up to work in this position. You have much greater leeway to adjust your head position when standing or sitting by turkey necking. Also, if you do switch to a variable power scope, the eyebox will shorten and eye relief will be less as the magnification increases, so adjust your scope position to work with the highest magnification setting. Some Appleseed shooters advise setting the scope very far forward so that the ocular is about even with the back face of the receiver on a Ruger 10/22. I don't have my scope that far forward, but I have added a recoil pad to the stock of my rifle to increase the length of pull by about 1 1/2". I did have to mess around with the scope position quite a bit while prone until I got it in a spot that worked. Unless you are using a very short scope, you will almost certainly need to use extension rings, or at least one extension ring in the forward position, or a cantilever-type one piece mount to get your scope far enough forward. With the magnification set on maximum for a variable zoom scope, mount the ocular as far rearward as you can without any vignetting in the prone position. That will provide plenty of eye relief for lower magnifications or for shooting standing, sitting, or kneeling. You may also need to add a some type of a comb riser pad or sleeve to your butt stock to allow for a proper cheek weld, since the optical axis of your scope will almost certainly be higher than for your iron sights. Congratulations to lockedcj7 for shooting a 240. My high score on the AQT was only a 233, but this was my first Appleseed. I also have issues with mobility on the transition stages having undergone hip replacement surgery in the not too distant past, and having a bad knee to boot.

April 25, 2018, 11:00 AM	#14
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	What is this Appleseed?

April 25, 2018, 01:32 PM	#15
pblanc Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 697	Here is a link to Project Appleseed: http://appleseedinfo.org/ The organization might come off as somewhat politicized, but it really is not. The founders and volunteer instructors of Appleseed are clearly pro-Second Amendment and there is considerable admiration for the Patriot Founding Fathers and those colonists who participated in the battle of Lexington and Concord on April 19, 1775. The events are part history lesson and part instruction in three-position rifle target shooting. Most Appleseed events are conducted on short ranges at 25 meters using scaled (reduced) targets to simulate human upper torsos at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. At that short range, 22 lr rifles work very well and wind and ballistic drop are really not factors. Most shooters use small bore rifles at the 25 meter shoots because they are much more economical, but it is OK to use center-fire rifles as well. The history part covers largely the events of April 19, 1775 but also somewhat the events preceding and following. It is really pretty interesting. Instructional topics covered are those of basic positional rifle shooting as has been taught by the US Army and USMC and include proper posture and hold in the standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone positions including the use of a sling for stabilization. Also open sight or optics zeroing using the minute of angle concept. Other basic concepts taught are those that apply to any target firearm shooting: sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, front sight focus, proper trigger squeeze, and follow through. Safety is emphasized with attention to line commands that apply to most group target shoots. The events are also a bit of an informal competition since some courses of fire are scored. Project Appleseed uses the same targets that are used by the US Army for rifle qualification on short ranges, the so-called Army Qualification Target (AQT) again using silhouette type targets scaled in size to simulate longer ranges. Here is the typical AQT course of fire in four stages: http://www.libertysprice.org/oldsite/aqt.htm Here is what the AQT target looks like. One of each of the four rows of targets is shot in each stage: The time limits for the second and third stages have been lengthened a bit to 55 and 65 seconds respectively. The rules for the rapid fire transitional stages are quite similar to those used by the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) for their trophy rifle matches except that any power optic may be used. Project Appleseed also has "known distance" events for center-fire rifle. These are shot at actual distances using a non-reduced target. The same 20-25" wide upper torso silhouette target is shot at 100, 200, 300, 400 and sometimes 500 yards. The same AQT course of fire is used but scoring might be a bit different. Obviously, with these "known" or "actual" distance events, wind reading and accommodating for ballistic drop using scope "doping" or hold overs becomes critical to good scores. Overall, Appleseed events, apart from being a lot of fun and a significant challenge for most, offer very cost-effective instruction in the basics of rifle target shooting regardless of the participant's prior experience or skill level. Last edited by pblanc; April 25, 2018 at 01:47 PM.

April 29, 2018, 09:36 AM	#17
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	I'm sure there isn't a free way to cure the problem, other than using scrap lumber to build a butt stock extension. That Barska scope looks interesting. Thanks for the link. I have a slip-on recoil pad on order from Pachmayr. That should add about 3/4 of an inch to the pull. I don't know if that's enough, but it should help. I may also tinker with adjusting the parallax to 25 meters (even though the scope isn't supposed to be AO, apparently you can unscrew the outer ring on the objective and and screw the objective lens in or out to change the parallax distance -- hopefully without losing the nitrogen charge).