Would you choose a different shotgun...

[MoW]

depending on the situation or stay with what you have no matter what? I've been reading alot here in this forum and it seems that almost everybody would choose a pump for home defense with an intruder. However, in a NO Katrina situation with 4 or 5 guys coming to rob or loot, it seems more would go with a semi auto. So it begs the question as to whether you would pick up which shotgun and under what circumstances?

BTW, the only shotgun that I guess covers both scenarios would have to be the Benelli M3---yes?

For those that love the pump--what scenario would you consider switching?
For those that love semi--what scenario would you consider switching?

[banditt007]

i would say use whatever you are most confortable with and have the most expereince with.

Take away all the fantasy, and think about it. Five guys comming into your home, you have a pump gun.

Though no one can predict the outcome there is a good chance you will need one shot to drop the first two guys. If the other guys keep comming i would be very surprised. If they did they have some shots waiting for them. Not to mention the first two are probably getting in the way of the others, slowing their direct attack on you.


Only time i would use a semi is if i knew i was going to loose function of one of my arms in the battle. Being that there is no way to know that, i'll stick with a pump.

Plus most HD shotguns carry 7+ rounds. that will F up a lot of stuff in plain english.

In a katrina situation i would have a pump 7+ shot, 18-20" barrel with #1 to number 00 buck and that would be barricade type gun. or a funnel gun. you at the end of a hallway near the bedrooms kind of thing. For mobs of nut jobs trying to kill/attack you. i think you would be well served with an AK varrient, a 30 round mag in the 7.62x39 variation.

You must think too, most people, even really crazy people there is a good chance of retreat after the first few get wasted. Chances are you already have them outgunned.

Unless someone is seeking a death wish, even with mob behavior i think it would 'snap them out of it' seeing a fellow or two infront of them fold to the ground with large gun blasts going off... Hmmm maybe try the next house.

Just my take i'm not pro at how mobs work or anything else for that matter...

[littlmak]

I'm curious, Why not a semi-auto for this situation?

[Dave McC]

Most real world HD scenarios see one or two shots fired, not more ammo than used in The Battle for Hue.

Criminals seek safe targets. Show you're not safe and they'll go prey elsewhere.

One of the anecdotes from Katrina tells of three goblins kicking in the door of an elderly couple abd getting center massed once each from his 410 skeet gun,a Winchester 42. No further action needed.

As to why not a semi, semis are still slightly less reliable. If a semi is your pick, do the Ayoob test of 200 rounds of duty ammo. If it gets through it glitchfree, it's reliable enough.

[Fifth Wheel]

I have a few Remington 870s, an Ithaca 37, a Benelli M1S90, a Remington 1187, and a Benneli M4. They will all do the job just fine. However, I have experienced short stroking the pumps on occasion. In fact, this has been more common than any failures to feed in my semis. The semis have all been sterling perfomers.

If I had my choice, I would take a semi, hands-down. In a SHTF scenario, if I was being crowded by several angry people, I would not want to have to start pumping away and run the risk of a short-stroke.

Another thing, I hear that pumps will feed anything. That's BS. I bought a bunch of Winchester low recoil 00 (with the short cup) a couple years ago. It wouldn't feed through my semis, and it wouldn't feed through my 870s. The ammo was total crap. No matter what weapon ssytem you use, know your ammo is good. These days, I use predominantly Federal.

[jhgreasemonkey]

I preffer a pump. But I think a good quality shotgun that hasnt experienced too much wear pump or auto would be fine. I would either choose a mossburg 590 for the pump or a benneli m4 for the auto.

[littlmak]

Short stroking is the reason I asked the question about HD weapon. I used to shoot trap doubles and I missed many 2nd shots because of SS or not seating hard enough. If I were in a Life or death situation I would rather trust a Semi auto that I've shot trap & skeet with over my adrenaline aided motor skills. And I also think even a trap load of 7 1/2 shot at close range (inside my house) would stop anything on 2 legs

[Fifth Wheel]

I'm with you, littlmak. Give me a Benelli any day of the week.

[onemsumba]

i've short stroked by 870 hunting duck more time then i care to admit but all you have to do is pump it again and its good to go. I can shoot a pump at least 90% as fast as a semi. I've watched plenty of people shoot skeet with then and you couldn't even tell they worked the action.

['75Scout]

I wouldn't switch from my 870. It's set up just the way I want it and I'm pretty quick with it. But I wouldn't mind having an M3 just for fun.

[Dave McC]

I'm old and set in my ways. The 870 platform has worked for me for over 40 years and will continue to do so.

Short stroking? The cure for that is elbow grease and BA/UU/R.....

[Pezo]

NO Katrina situation with 4 or 5 guys coming to rob or loot, it seems more would go with a semi auto.

NOt me, I'd take my 590-a1 for a shotgun against 4 or 5 screwball looter's. That is if I couldnt avoid the situation to begin with.

[Pezo]

I can shoot a pump at least 90% as fast as a semi

DItto. I can rack the 590-a1 quick enough, And dont have to worry about ammo jams as at all. Give me 00 buck or fiocchi tatical slugs to use for self defense and theirs no way I would say "oh i wish I had a semi shotgun". I'd say "darn, look at the mess I made"

[skeeter1]

I've been shooting side-by-side 12-gauge doubles for years, everything from duck hunting to trapshooting. Maybe they only hold two rounds, but few things are scarier than looking at the receiving end of a double.

[DustinS]

I am a pump man and my father is a semi-auto man. In personal test between us I have been able to cycle and fire just as quick as he can with a semi. So I would stick with the pump. Not to mention for alot of home intruders the last thing they want to hear is the pump.

[Surefire_U2]

Every semi-auto shotgun I've tried by Remington and Benelli has been a jam-o-matic that is lucky to cycle two rounds in a row without a failure. I don't trust semi-auto shotguns. I realize that shooting skeet might be the cause (lower powered ammo than defense loads), but nonetheless I am not impressed with semi-autos for shotguns.

I'll take a pump, or double-barrel shotgun for home defense needs.

[sm]

Sure.
In fact I have and often do so.

My preference is a bone stock 870 pump loaded with Brenneke slugs, second loading choice the Federal plain vanilla 1oz slugs.

Having said that, Next to me is NEF Single Shot Youth Model 20 ga.

I have never felt uncomfortable with My '74 Win SX1 , bone stock, with well over 200k rds thru it.

Best kept secret is a 1100 is 20 ga, I have used the 12, 20, 28 [with slugs] and .410 with no problem.

My Citori 3 bbl set, 20, 28, .410, again never felt I could not handle whatever arose.

--

You see I was raised in a time when a LOT of the Offerings in Shotguns [firearms period] and Ammo choices simply are not what they are today.

Money was tight, and folks didn't buy something until they could afford to pay for it, or used Lay-a-way.

Folks learned to shoot, including gun fit, how to pattern guns, shoot slugs for groups, and shot ammo designed for their gun - meaning reliable feeding and extraction [100 -200 rds tested ] and KNEW what their was going to do everytime, a gun that fit, and they had trained with and practiced with.

Once done - they did not mess with the firearm or loadings.

Now if a powder was no longer made, or a new powder came out to replace, perhaps the factory dropped a loading, added a new one, maybe even if they never used a slug for deer, only pellet loads for bird hunting, clay games, small game - whatever - well time to get a variety of 5 packs of slugs [back then Rem, Win, or Fed was about it for choices - one had to make their own 28 ga slugs...which is .54 caliber and lots of things have fallen to .54 caliber remember?] shoot for them reliable and best groups.

We didn't have the Internet.
We had gun magazines, and folks hashing back and forth at ranges, clubs, and wherever they met - still - Folks KNEW back then Each gun was a critter of its own and it made NO difference what anyone shot, the choke, the brand of ammo to speak of because...

Always the Shooter - not the shootin' iron.
One has to test for themselves - gun fit, ammo - because it does not mean a hill of beans what something is marked or what works for another person.

Oh sure one can get an idea for a baseline.

"Such and Such's Model gun seems to shoot Loading Whatever, and What's his name's gun shoot the same Model gun and his gun prefers Whomever's ammo - I'll get some of both of these loads to start out and TEST MY GUN FOR ME.




Problem is they do not seem to teach a few things today they did back then.

1. What does the owners manual suggest for loading?
2. What was the gun designed to shoot for a loading?

Meaning - what runs the gun?

3. Gauge and pellet count/ size is effective to what ranges for
what task?
4. Slugs are good to go for what range and effectiveness?

Meaning - Tool and components for task.

5. This critter takes this to fell them.
6. Patternng a gun / shooting groups to know
a. Pattern density, shot strings being short or long.
b. Trajectory of slugs.

Meaning - a person got to know his, the firearm's and ammo's limitations.

--

Let us take a bone stock 1100 in 12 ga.

Persons takes up Skeet, gets the gun to fit them, takes lessons / training and practices.

Now in my day the 1 1/8 oz loading in 2 3/4 dr eq was the loading used for Skeet, the 3 dr loading of 1 1/8 oz was the "heavy target load" and use by Trap shooters.

We didn't have factory 7/8 oz loads. I am trying to recall when I saw factory 1oz loads used on the field.

Gun patterned and the 1100 ran flawlessly with these 1 1/8 oz loads in either "light" or "heavy" target loads. Ran all the heavier game loads too, like the 1 1/4 oz Pigeon Loads, or Rabbit loads...always run Buckshot and slugs too.

I mean a person that shoots say 500 rds a week , and the 1100 NEVER misses a beat, and the person has tested his 1100 for best serious loads and whatever game/ task/ critter is going to be able to take care of a serious situation.


Now the 7/8 oz loads came out...1100 not made to shoot them...
Equipment Races to shoot various games came about...

Well, you shorten bbls you change dwell timing and the gun may not run the loads it did with its factory length.

Tip - Remington's 1100 Bird Gun had a 23" bbl, English stock and it never missed a beat with any loading. Magic length on the bbl and dwell timing was 23".

Folks started messing with opening ports....well the Rule is - if you mess with one component, it affects others.

That 1100 Skeet gun ran great, never failed...

Add that sidesaddle, a bit too tight - and it would not run.

Get it to run with that and now one may have to mess with something else.
Domino Effect.

7. If it ain't broke - don't fix it.

Meaning, if you need a hammer, don't try to make a Screwdriver into hammer - buy a hammer.

---

So What happened?

Internet. Oh yeah Marketers like the Internet, much easier to give folks a case of the "gotta haves".

Much much better than magazine subscriptions, and reading magazines at the barber/ beauty shop...reaches more folks.

Folks forget one is suppose to crawl before they walk, walk before they run.

Today, if you got plastic, just whip that sucker out and buy equipment so you can bypass the crawling and walking stages, go directly to running.
If that pc of equipment don't work - just keep buying one until you can...or feel you can.

Folks started trying to buy skill and targets. Fine by me.

See I know, oh I know all too well of folks that have used a bone stock Pump, Semi, SxS, O/U, even single shot shotguns for matters, and some real serious.

I know the same folks, folks with same mindset, that have multiples of these guns, they look for them.

That is why a 23 y/o lady that shot/ shoots 15K rds a year in skeet, uses a 1100 in 20 ga for a Everything gun, even HD. Petite thing, the other 3 house defense guns are fit to her, and are also 1100s. Her hubby is about 6'1' and 190#, he can use her guns. She would use a Pump, and can to some extent, but she had a little problem with weak side arm...someday perhaps she will be more well...
She took a couple of defensive shotgun classes, and did really really well, beat the boys even.
Especially on the part in covering the BG and having to dial a phone...BG "produces a gun" and she had to shoot BG one handed. Just one little test this private instructor does...

---

Hence the reason folks "jump" and play really cool when they find a Beretta 303, a B-80, Rem Bird gun, 1100s, SX1s, in semis. Two bbl guns such as Citori, 311, and the single shot ain't dead - not gonna be.

Pumps, the old Pumps, 870 and 1300 of course, but a $85 JC Higgins works there are other deals out there, and especially if someone has a bad case of "gotta haves".


Sorry for being so long, I have had I guess a dozen or more contact me about this very topic.

Just my thoughts mind you.


28 ga slugs.

You read that right. See Ballistic Products.

Another thing is...well some folks are Physically Challenged. Be it from birth, accidents, surgeries, disease.

Didn't get a hand or arm at birth, car wrecks, broken backs, detached retina...arthritis...Doc says they cannot shoot...
Maybe they can if limited to less recoil like semi auto.

Some just want to break a clay, go hunting with a grandkid...

I am not going to stand in front of a 1100 in .410.
28 ga either, especially with a slug, a .54 cal hunk of lead that felled took Buffalo and ...Remember history, like Civil War?

So grandpa can tote that 1100 in 28 ga out with his grandson, maybe bird hunting...then again maybe deer season.

Matter get serious that .54 cal can work on more serious matters around the property.

Just like that petite gal with her 1100 skeet gun...she uses low 7 as a Tueller Drill.

She really liked that lesson...*grin*.

Remember what Bob Brister wrote...you do have his book and read it often- right?

Fred Misseldine wrote and said the same thing - Shooting is 90% Mental, and 10% Physical - Once you get the Physical figured out for YOU - forget it, don't change it, quit messing and fretting over it.

Physical is the gun, ammo, shell pouch, clothes you wear, shoes [ yep real important them shoes] ...etc.

Get this Physical out of the way, and the Physical will not creep over and start taking away some of that 90% Mental stuff .

Ever fretted about spilling coffee on your clothes driving somewhere, and almost miss the red light and nosedive to a stop? How about miss seeing the green light and the car behind honks to get you to go?

Mental game was lessened by fiddlin' with the Physical.

Same reason Champion shooters are Champions - Focus.
Why Trained Teams in Military, LEO and similar are on those teams - they are focused.

Hand either one a 1100 in 20 ga, and they can take care of business.


Yeah I'll take a 870 as my preference

Then again it is about Software - not hardware.

Can't buy it - Gotta Earn it. - Mentor of mine



Steve

[maas]

i have two of the best shotguns made a browning gold (concidered to be the fastest simi avalible) and a winchester model 12. ive had the browinig sinse 2000 and have never had a jam (and i shoot it alot) the model 12 was made in the 30's so its a lot older than me. i wouldnt be afraid to use either incase of emergancy. oh btw if i cant cycle the modle 12 faster than the gold its pretty close.

[niceman_44]

I like my Remington 1100 Competition Master with a 22" barrel. I keep #4 buckshot in it with a tac light (it holds 8 rounds). I have shot hundreds of rounds through it and it's never missed a beat. To me, it's the perfect ALL PURPOSE shotgun (hunting, skeet, home defense, etc.). It's great!

[TexiCali Slim]

I would feel 100% confident with my pump, hell I have a 8 shot capacity as many have allready mentioneed, but i wouldnt mind having a MP5 or sumpin insted

[M1911]

At LFI-2, we all did a drill where we loaded up our shotguns with 5 rounds and fired them all as fast as we could. The fastest shooter with a semi-auto emptied it into the target in a bit over 1 second. The fastest shooter with a pump emptied it in a bit over 2 seconds.

In other words, there's not much difference in the real world. Either will do the job.

Semi-autos require a bit more care. The aluminum receivers on Benellis can be bent relatively easily. The Benelli M3 is completely pointless, IMHO -- an answer to a question that nobody is asking. 870s may not be impervious to mistreatment, but they sure are tough.

[Quintin]

Use whatever suits you best. I've owned pump shotguns before, but I'm most familiar with the manual of arms for my M1S90. So, unless it was unavoidable for some reason or another (weapon malfunction, breakage, lost, etc), I'm not switching in the situation you described.

[HK_P7]

I have a Benelli M3 and a modified 870P. Although the M3 offers pump and semi modes, I feel a little more comfortable with my 870P. I have practiced more with this shotgun, and I can unload the shells rather quickly.

That is pretty much what it comes down to, practice. You won't even think (about pumping) after you have adequate time to practice with your shotgun.

Oh yeah, make sure you practice with the ammo you will use for HD.

[9mmMike]

One thing about the "one arm is disabled" thing. I have seen gas guns that are not reliable when not properly mounted. In other words, I'd just as soon have my 870 as any semi. I really like my own 1100 but it is a toy more than a wepon that I'd trust my family's lives to. Just my opinion but for those who would like to try shooting a 12 ga. one-handed, please add the semi to your test and let us know how it works out. Maybe one of those Saiga's would be good but with no last shot bolt hold-open, loaded single shots (remember you've only got one arm) would be a problem.
Mike

[banditt007]

i didnt think of that with a semi shot gun for the one arm thing. I guess its directly related to 'limp wristing' a semi hand gun, jams jams jams