Trimming .44 Rem Mag Cases for consistent crimp? - Page 2

rclark · December 9, 2018, 08:16 PM

Nick, sorry for yanking your chain a little bit, as I pretty much knew what the answer was going to be

. All good.

Unclenick, That's good 50y shooting with a handgun! You can't get any better! With open sights, my eyes aren't that good even for 25Ys to hold'r that steady for a group like that consistently.

mikld · December 10, 2018, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real Gun

No one has a way to know that, but they can project that there are lots of others like them. Deciding to trim brass is not for lack of experience.

From reading forums since 2008 and the posts on the subject of trimming revolver brass, it's an easy conclusion to reach. Most revolver reloaders do not trim their brass...

**Unclenick** · December 10, 2018, 01:09 PM

Cw308,

Mine has a 7.5" barrel. Blued. I see they are all stainless now except for a distributor special. The stainless version of mine has an MSRP of $1159 at Ruger's site. IIRC, I bought it in a gun store for about $400, new, if that gives you a hint about how long ago it was. My good fortune was they had three of them in the store that day and I got to examine them all carefully, doing the thumb drag check for timing (one failed on two chambers), looking at how well centered the chambers were in the back of the bore with the cylinder latch in its notch (the one that failed the thumb drag and one other both were slightly off center). I also looked that the crack of light in the barrel/cylinder gap was even, though that is of consequence only if it indicates the cylinder axis isn't parallel with the bore axis (bent or twisted frame), and all of them passed on that score. Anyway, I took it home and it turned out to shoot.

Rclark,

I confess I had a 1X Burris scope on it. With the short radius of iron sights on a handgun, I find it helpful. With rifle, I could group about as well with iron sights as with a scope on NRA targets when I was younger. Where that gets into trouble is when the target isn't a nice regularly shaped piece of paper.

Mikld,

I think it's true that most do not. It occurs to me that even with mixed brass since it doesn't all have the same wall thickness, the same trim length may not get you the same crimp hold on the bullet anyway. So, for precision loads, I think you are stuck with sorting by headstamp and then you usually don't have much length discrepancy. Still, I want to take the calipers out and confirm that.

**44 AMP** · December 10, 2018, 01:27 PM

While actual trimming is seldom needed because of case growth, this does not mean you shouldn't check, measure and segregate your brass.

Not only are you looking for a case that is too long (rare with revolver brass) but you should also bee looking for cases that are too SHORT.

I don't recall needing to trim .44 Mag or other revolver cases regularly, but I have trimmed them for uniformity of length. In my experience it is .38 special that seems to need it more often but it can happen with an y caliber, .44 Mag included.

Where do you get your brass? New ammo you shoot? range pickup? buy new or used from ??? While brass within a lot is usually pretty uniform, usually is not "always". Ever load mixed headstamp brass? If you don't at least check it, you could have ..issues...
Maybe its only one, or a dozen out of several hundred, but short cases are out there.

Now, what's the worst that could happen? too little, or no crimp? yes, possible. Also possible is using a case shorter than the rest to adjust your dies, without realizing it short, until you over flare or worse over crimp (and maybe buckle) longer cases.

You may not have to trim, but you should check for length and weed out those over long or over short to your average case length.

cw308 · December 10, 2018, 02:29 PM

Unclenick
Stainless is easy to maintain but there's something about a blued firearm . Burn marks on the cylinder face takes some TLC to remove . The leadaway material wipes it away with no effort, great for SS but will remove the bluing . My S&W 29 the year I bought it S&W changed the locking cutouts on the cylinder cutout off center , was supposedly to help the cylinder lockup . Smith's I don't think are strong enough to take a steady of full loads , they do have nice triggers though . Don't shoot it much , maybe if I shot like you I would be tempted to show off alittle . Only in my dreams . I would trim all to the same length no matter what brand of brass and roll crimped with the same crimp on the bullet brass and lead
Again , nice shooting showoff .

Real Gun · December 10, 2018, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Most revolver reloaders do not trim their brass

That wasn't the context. The statement was that very few trim, which is a total guess, a projection, which I infer is to diminish any importance for precision in ones loading, whether consequential or not. It is the old "most people", when a person has no way of really knowing what "most people" do but wishes to add credibility to his position.

LE-28 · December 10, 2018, 06:07 PM

I don't trim much any more, I sort for length after they are resized. With new brass I measure everyone for anything longer than max length. I rarely find one.

I keep my straight walled revolver cases in increments of .010" in case length variances. I seat and crimp in one step and it makes it much easier to set the die up. I look for the longest case in the batch I'm reloading and set the crimp up to hit the upper end of the cannular. The rest will just follow suit.
Since the 1980s I still only have two different length batches of 357, all my brass falls into one of those two batches.
For high powered loads I use the longer batch and give them a good roll crimp, for the lower powered loads with plated or lead bullets I don't give them much of a crimp, pretty much just straighten out the flare.
The easiest thing to do is get a Wilson case gage, and check the longest and the shortest cases in the batch after crimping, you then know they will all work when you get the range and there's no guessing about it.

Drm50 · December 10, 2018, 09:02 PM

I knew a shooter that was know to be a cheapie. He would buy second rate guns on used
market and I never knew him to buy any brass. He would occasionally buy a box of ammo
but his specialty was range pickup. He loaded for a Hawes SA 44mg. He would load his assorted 44 brass, seat bullets then crimp. To crimp he removed seating stem and set die
to crimp by "feel". Being a cheap skate he used cast bullets made from range lead in the cheapest mold he could find. He would use about any powder he could get the cheapest and
get the most loads out of a pound. The only problems I saw him have was failure for case
to seal and occasional slug stuck in bore.

**44 AMP** · December 10, 2018, 10:28 PM

Quote:

The easiest thing to do is get a Wilson case gage, and check the longest and the shortest cases in the batch after crimping, you then know they will all work when you get the range and there's no guessing about it.

I don't see the point of using a gauge after crimping. You can simply look at the crimp and see if the case was noticeably long or short. It's already loaded ammo, so its "going to work" when you go to the range.

buck460XVR · December 11, 2018, 08:50 AM

The question posed by the OP was "Trimming .44 brass for consistent crimp?". Regardless of what one has done for their whole reloading career doesn't change the fact, that for the most consistent roll crimps, one needs consistent case length. Most handgun shooters shooting at their standard 15-25 yards will probably never notice the difference. I practice regularly with my .44 revolvers at 70-100 yards for hunting. Between the distance and the slow burning powders I use, consistency of crimp makes a significant difference in groups and SD. While I do not trim my revolver brass all the time, I do trim virgin brass and once fired factory brass one time. I use that brass for heavy hunting type loads for maybe a half dozen loadings and then delegate it to everyday range ammo, where a consistent crimp is not as critical. It's easy to tell when crimping, which cases are long and which ones are short, compared to the case the dies were set on when using this mixed brass.

So, IMHO, does .44 mag brass need to be trimmed? No, it does not. Should .44 mag brass be trimmed? Depends on the application and what one demands from their reloads.

mikld · December 11, 2018, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real Gun

That wasn't the context. The statement was that very few trim, which is a total guess, a projection, which I infer is to diminish any importance for precision in ones loading, whether consequential or not. It is the old "most people", when a person has no way of really knowing what "most people" do but wishes to add credibility to his position.

Them nits get picked quite a bit when it comes to semantics...

cw308 · December 11, 2018, 11:35 AM

Is it the time it takes to trim that revolver shooters decide to eliminate the need for trimming . If your looking for accurate reloads with a roll crimp why not trim all to the same length for a consistent trim . It doesn't make sense to me . After sizing just trim to the same length is no big deal .

It's the same with rifle brass , I'm a benchrest shooter 308 caliber , every case I shoot is as exact as possible , I don't crimp my rifle cases but I trim every firing after full length sizing , some don't trim until it reaches the trim length . What is it with trimming that some shooters don't. until it's necessary.

**44 AMP** · December 11, 2018, 02:53 PM

Quote:

What is it with trimming that some shooters don't. until it's necessary.

Some shooters aren't shooting benchrest guns. A lot of us are shooting guns where those extra steps for maximum uniformity of rounds doesn't matter.

For my deer rifles, loading benchrest quality ammo is a bit OCD. Were I a competition shooter with competition level guns, it wouldn't be.

For a handgun, who's standard of accurate is 2-2.5 inches at 25yds, the work needed to produce ammo that will give small groups at 400 yds from a rifle is needless extra work.

cw308 · December 11, 2018, 03:10 PM

44
I just wanted to know the reason and you answered it ," needless extra work ". Me not being a avid handgun shooter only for fun answered my question . Being a reloader with time I'll still trim I must say nothing will make a difference in my handgun groups , like I said just for fun , even my groups makes me laugh , my daughter on the other hand puts 7 rounds in the black at 25 yards with a Walther PPK/S 380 go figure that out.

**44 AMP** · December 11, 2018, 10:29 PM

I will admit there is no "needless extra work" when you are doing it for the love of the hobby.

on the other hand, doing extra things for a result you are not going to get seems rather pointless to me.

Real Gun · December 12, 2018, 10:26 AM

I think some sound like consistent seating depth wouldn't matter either, as long as it chambered. Reminds me why I don't shoot other reloader's ammo.

Don P · December 12, 2018, 10:45 AM

Waste of time

Real Gun · December 12, 2018, 10:50 AM

You can dismiss it if you don't care about consistent crimps within meaningful tolerances, especially an outlier you can tell at a glance.

Don P · December 12, 2018, 10:54 AM

With the ten's of thousand's of rounds that I have reloaded I have not found inconsistencies that would warrant trimming case with regards to crimp.

mikld · December 12, 2018, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I will admit there is no "needless extra work" when you are doing it for the love of the hobby.

on the other hand, doing extra things for a result you are not going to get seems rather pointless to me.

Exactly. I don't reload to save money. I don't reload because I have odd or discontinued ammo. I don't reload because I have to. I reload because I like to.

If I want to do "waste of time" processes to my ammo, it's all good. If I use "bench rest" techniques for ammo to hunt tin cans, it's all good. I spend time in my shop that pleases me. I spend money on components because the end product pleases me (and that's a little better than spending my money on booze and broads). I get great satisfaction loading some hand made ammo into my guns and seeing the results on a target. I think all the negative posts about what some other reloader does is a "waste of time"...

BTW; my bullet seating is very consistent and case length has very little to do with that .002"-.003" variation in my OAL...

rclark · December 12, 2018, 02:41 PM

Quote:

If I want to do "waste of time" processes to my ammo, it's all good.

Absolutely

. No argument there. Just don't take it personal

. We all have our own opinion. My waste of time, is someone else's quality time ... All good

. Garage sells have the same saying, one man's junk is another mans treasure... Applies to collectors vs. shooters -- one man's cardboard box is junk, but to a collector it is worth something... And so it goes.

k4swb · December 12, 2018, 04:29 PM

Do you need consistent crimps? That is totally up to you.

No matter what you think or anyone says, If you want consistent crimps for any reason you have to have consistent length brass.

This may take trimming.

Don P · December 12, 2018, 04:53 PM

Quote:

If I want to do "waste of time" processes to my ammo, it's all good. If I use "bench rest" techniques for ammo to hunt tin cans, it's all good. I spend time in my shop that pleases me. I spend money on components because the end product pleases me (and that's a little better than spending my money on booze and broads). I get great satisfaction loading some hand made ammo into my guns and seeing the results on a target. I think all the negative posts about what some other reloader does is a "waste of time"

The negative replies are answering the OP's question as "is it necessary" and why do you take it as being negative replies?

mikld · December 13, 2018, 12:32 PM

Reloading has a large personal preference influence. Negative posts ("waste of time") is in fact attacking one's personal choices. The only "waste of time" for my reloading is trying to modify my reloading methods to be "just like the other guys"...

cw308 · December 13, 2018, 05:52 PM

mikld
I do get alot of satisfaction out of reloading along with booze and broads , life is good . To bad I couldn't do all three at the same time . Tuff getting old .

December 9, 2018, 08:16 PM	#26
rclark Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2009 Location: Butte, MT Posts: 2,619	Nick, sorry for yanking your chain a little bit, as I pretty much knew what the answer was going to be . All good. Unclenick, That's good 50y shooting with a handgun! You can't get any better! With open sights, my eyes aren't that good even for 25Ys to hold'r that steady for a group like that consistently. __________________ A clinger and deplorable, MAGA, and life NRA member. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Single Action .45 Colt (Sometimes colloquially referred to by its alias as the .45 'Long' Colt or .45LC). Don't leave home without it. That said, the .44Spec is right up their too... but the .45 Colt is still the king.

December 10, 2018, 01:09 PM	#28
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Cw308, Mine has a 7.5" barrel. Blued. I see they are all stainless now except for a distributor special. The stainless version of mine has an MSRP of $1159 at Ruger's site. IIRC, I bought it in a gun store for about $400, new, if that gives you a hint about how long ago it was. My good fortune was they had three of them in the store that day and I got to examine them all carefully, doing the thumb drag check for timing (one failed on two chambers), looking at how well centered the chambers were in the back of the bore with the cylinder latch in its notch (the one that failed the thumb drag and one other both were slightly off center). I also looked that the crack of light in the barrel/cylinder gap was even, though that is of consequence only if it indicates the cylinder axis isn't parallel with the bore axis (bent or twisted frame), and all of them passed on that score. Anyway, I took it home and it turned out to shoot. Rclark, I confess I had a 1X Burris scope on it. With the short radius of iron sights on a handgun, I find it helpful. With rifle, I could group about as well with iron sights as with a scope on NRA targets when I was younger. Where that gets into trouble is when the target isn't a nice regularly shaped piece of paper. Mikld, I think it's true that most do not. It occurs to me that even with mixed brass since it doesn't all have the same wall thickness, the same trim length may not get you the same crimp hold on the bullet anyway. So, for precision loads, I think you are stuck with sorting by headstamp and then you usually don't have much length discrepancy. Still, I want to take the calipers out and confirm that. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 10, 2018, 01:27 PM	#29
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	While actual trimming is seldom needed because of case growth, this does not mean you shouldn't check, measure and segregate your brass. Not only are you looking for a case that is too long (rare with revolver brass) but you should also bee looking for cases that are too SHORT. I don't recall needing to trim .44 Mag or other revolver cases regularly, but I have trimmed them for uniformity of length. In my experience it is .38 special that seems to need it more often but it can happen with an y caliber, .44 Mag included. Where do you get your brass? New ammo you shoot? range pickup? buy new or used from ??? While brass within a lot is usually pretty uniform, usually is not "always". Ever load mixed headstamp brass? If you don't at least check it, you could have ..issues... Maybe its only one, or a dozen out of several hundred, but short cases are out there. Now, what's the worst that could happen? too little, or no crimp? yes, possible. Also possible is using a case shorter than the rest to adjust your dies, without realizing it short, until you over flare or worse over crimp (and maybe buckle) longer cases. You may not have to trim, but you should check for length and weed out those over long or over short to your average case length. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

December 11, 2018, 10:29 PM	#40
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	I will admit there is no "needless extra work" when you are doing it for the love of the hobby. on the other hand, doing extra things for a result you are not going to get seems rather pointless to me. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

December 12, 2018, 10:26 AM	#41
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	I think some sound like consistent seating depth wouldn't matter either, as long as it chambered. Reminds me why I don't shoot other reloader's ammo. __________________ Not an expert, just a reporter.

December 10, 2018, 02:29 PM	#30
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Unclenick Stainless is easy to maintain but there's something about a blued firearm . Burn marks on the cylinder face takes some TLC to remove . The leadaway material wipes it away with no effort, great for SS but will remove the bluing . My S&W 29 the year I bought it S&W changed the locking cutouts on the cylinder cutout off center , was supposedly to help the cylinder lockup . Smith's I don't think are strong enough to take a steady of full loads , they do have nice triggers though . Don't shoot it much , maybe if I shot like you I would be tempted to show off alittle . Only in my dreams . I would trim all to the same length no matter what brand of brass and roll crimped with the same crimp on the bullet brass and lead Again , nice shooting showoff .

December 10, 2018, 06:07 PM	#32
LE-28 Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 759	I don't trim much any more, I sort for length after they are resized. With new brass I measure everyone for anything longer than max length. I rarely find one. I keep my straight walled revolver cases in increments of .010" in case length variances. I seat and crimp in one step and it makes it much easier to set the die up. I look for the longest case in the batch I'm reloading and set the crimp up to hit the upper end of the cannular. The rest will just follow suit. Since the 1980s I still only have two different length batches of 357, all my brass falls into one of those two batches. For high powered loads I use the longer batch and give them a good roll crimp, for the lower powered loads with plated or lead bullets I don't give them much of a crimp, pretty much just straighten out the flare. The easiest thing to do is get a Wilson case gage, and check the longest and the shortest cases in the batch after crimping, you then know they will all work when you get the range and there's no guessing about it.

December 10, 2018, 09:02 PM	#33
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,378	I knew a shooter that was know to be a cheapie. He would buy second rate guns on used market and I never knew him to buy any brass. He would occasionally buy a box of ammo but his specialty was range pickup. He loaded for a Hawes SA 44mg. He would load his assorted 44 brass, seat bullets then crimp. To crimp he removed seating stem and set die to crimp by "feel". Being a cheap skate he used cast bullets made from range lead in the cheapest mold he could find. He would use about any powder he could get the cheapest and get the most loads out of a pound. The only problems I saw him have was failure for case to seal and occasional slug stuck in bore.

December 11, 2018, 08:50 AM	#35
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	The question posed by the OP was "Trimming .44 brass for consistent crimp?". Regardless of what one has done for their whole reloading career doesn't change the fact, that for the most consistent roll crimps, one needs consistent case length. Most handgun shooters shooting at their standard 15-25 yards will probably never notice the difference. I practice regularly with my .44 revolvers at 70-100 yards for hunting. Between the distance and the slow burning powders I use, consistency of crimp makes a significant difference in groups and SD. While I do not trim my revolver brass all the time, I do trim virgin brass and once fired factory brass one time. I use that brass for heavy hunting type loads for maybe a half dozen loadings and then delegate it to everyday range ammo, where a consistent crimp is not as critical. It's easy to tell when crimping, which cases are long and which ones are short, compared to the case the dies were set on when using this mixed brass. So, IMHO, does .44 mag brass need to be trimmed? No, it does not. Should .44 mag brass be trimmed? Depends on the application and what one demands from their reloads.

December 11, 2018, 11:35 AM	#37
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Is it the time it takes to trim that revolver shooters decide to eliminate the need for trimming . If your looking for accurate reloads with a roll crimp why not trim all to the same length for a consistent trim . It doesn't make sense to me . After sizing just trim to the same length is no big deal . It's the same with rifle brass , I'm a benchrest shooter 308 caliber , every case I shoot is as exact as possible , I don't crimp my rifle cases but I trim every firing after full length sizing , some don't trim until it reaches the trim length . What is it with trimming that some shooters don't. until it's necessary.

December 11, 2018, 03:10 PM	#39
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	44 I just wanted to know the reason and you answered it ," needless extra work ". Me not being a avid handgun shooter only for fun answered my question . Being a reloader with time I'll still trim I must say nothing will make a difference in my handgun groups , like I said just for fun , even my groups makes me laugh , my daughter on the other hand puts 7 rounds in the black at 25 yards with a Walther PPK/S 380 go figure that out.

December 12, 2018, 10:45 AM	#42
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Waste of time __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

December 12, 2018, 10:50 AM	#43
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	You can dismiss it if you don't care about consistent crimps within meaningful tolerances, especially an outlier you can tell at a glance. __________________ Not an expert, just a reporter.

December 12, 2018, 10:54 AM	#44
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	With the ten's of thousand's of rounds that I have reloaded I have not found inconsistencies that would warrant trimming case with regards to crimp. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

December 12, 2018, 04:29 PM	#47
k4swb Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 389	Do you *need* consistent crimps? That is totally up to you. No matter what you think or anyone says, If you *want* consistent crimps for any reason you have to have consistent length brass. This may take trimming. __________________ My posts are things I have tried or experienced. You may or may not wish to emulate them so read them with this in mind. Compromise means that both sides give something, but they never give, they just take. I'm The NRA!

December 13, 2018, 12:32 PM	#49
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Reloading has a large personal preference influence. Negative posts ("waste of time") is in fact attacking one's personal choices. The only "waste of time" for my reloading is trying to modify my reloading methods to be "just like the other guys"... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

December 13, 2018, 05:52 PM	#50
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	mikld I do get alot of satisfaction out of reloading along with booze and broads , life is good . To bad I couldn't do all three at the same time . Tuff getting old .