Has anyone ever seen a primer do this???

Ben Towe · February 14, 2013, 10:29 AM

I bought these fired brass the other day and this primer caught my eye. I can't figure out what in the world would have caused it to look like this.uploadfromtaptalk1360855600759.jpg

*See my post below for the additional photos.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

eldermike · February 14, 2013, 10:33 AM

Looks like somone has been dry firing on it.

Dave P · February 14, 2013, 10:33 AM

Can't see clearly. Is it pushed in (concave)?

Ben Towe · February 14, 2013, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave P

Can't see clearly. Is it pushed in (concave)?

Yes it is.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Magnum Wheel Man · February 14, 2013, 10:55 AM

when you decap, see if it has an anvil... it's possible it may have still fired, but didn't have the anvil to support the cup...

other than that... I suspect maybe the dry firing / snap cap theory ???

CS86 · February 14, 2013, 10:56 AM

Could that be caused by a load that was loaded really light or no powder charge?

Magnum Wheel Man · February 14, 2013, 11:06 AM

my expirience with really light loads or no powder ( with a normal sized flash hole ) is the edges pooch out since the cartridge doesn't push back ( in a revolver, they can often scrub, & not allow the cylinder to rotate )... to me, the primer in picture doesn't look like primer pocket pressure acted on it last, like a light or no powder load

GWS · February 14, 2013, 11:22 AM

My first thought was the result of tube fed cartridges with spitzer bullets.....spitzer pushing into the primer. But I can't remember seeing a tube-fed rifle chambered for 22-250.

I would like to see the innards of that primer....how about depriming and posting another show and tell picture......maybe it is a cup only on a for-show only-round (no primer, no powder) and somebody tried to shoot it. I made some of those for cartridge boards and pulled the anvil out rather than use a spent primer that's dimpled. (soaked them for a while first)

chris in va · February 14, 2013, 11:28 AM

Fired from a subgun.

Oh wait, it's a rifle cartridge. Weird.

Magnum Wheel Man · February 14, 2013, 11:30 AM

22-250 machine gun

death to p-doggies for sure...

FrankenMauser · February 14, 2013, 03:31 PM

Used as a snap cap.

Gbro · February 14, 2013, 06:57 PM

I have used empty cases as snap caps and never saw anything with them that looked different than any other empty case. Every time I shoot a cylinder of .454 Casull I run that cylinder of emptys 3-4 times dry firing.
That primer is missing the anvil or the case has a HUGE flash hole???
Please post more pictures.

Daveylikey · February 14, 2013, 08:55 PM

Looks to me like a loose primer pocket combined with a light load. Firing pin strikes the primer and pushes the whole cartridge forward in the chamber, pressure rises and unseats the primer first since it is loose. As pressure rises it seals the primer against the pocket. Pressure continues to build and sets the case back as the bullet begins to exit the cartridge and now since the anvil is free to float around in the extra space the primer ends up concaved since the firing pin is still pushing against the primer. Sometimes you will see this and the edges of the primer will be crushed also if the case sets back forcefully enough. If it was an average load it would have flattened the concave shape back out. A heavier load it would have just blown the primer out of the case. When you reprime the case note how much force it takes to put the new primer in. If there is little or no resistance you will probably want to trash the case.

Might be like everyone else has said too (snap capped). I can't see more than one pin strike in the photo though.

Tooltech · February 14, 2013, 09:01 PM

When I first tried my RCBS hand priming tool, I mistakenly put the seating stem in side down. The first case I primed had that exact inverted dome look to it. I never tried to fire it, I just popped it out and put the next one in right.

Ben Towe · February 15, 2013, 01:14 AM

Here are some additional photos after de-priming. Note what appears to be tumbling media caught in the primers (I found another dished primer) and in the powder pan I used to catch the primers. Also the flash holes seem to be offset in the brass:uploadfromtaptalk1360908557942.jpg It also appears to have some marks which may be pressure signs. Here are some pictures of the primers:uploadfromtaptalk1360908670008.jpg uploadfromtaptalk1360908697335.jpg

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

FrankenMauser · February 15, 2013, 02:31 AM

Used as a snap cap.

F. Guffey · February 15, 2013, 03:59 PM

Concaved, you are not going to believe this, vacuum, the bullet started down the barrel without enough pressure to force the bullet out, when the bullet got to the end of its travel a vacuum was created, with a choice, the bullet could have returned or the vacuum could have collapsed the primer.

Then there was the time pressure escaped through a punctured primer with no place to go, it was one of those deals where the case fit the chamber at the shoulder and at the case head in front of the bolt face, the escaping gas had no place to go but back through the punctured primer hole, the high pressure captured gas could not escape fast enough so the primer collapsed from the center out, and that the story about the primer with the concaved appearance, AND! that is my story and I am sticking to it, as per ALEX HAWKINS.

F. Guffey

Scorch · February 15, 2013, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Concaved, you are not going to believe this, vacuum,

Hoover or Electrolux?

243winxb · February 15, 2013, 04:19 PM

Large amounts of slow burn rate powder can come back and push in the case body. This happens because there is more pressure outside the case then inside. Never seen or heard of it being done to a primer. [IMG]

[/IMG]

david_r · February 16, 2013, 03:10 PM

I have trouble believing 14.7 PSI of pressure (vacuum is a lack of pressure) would cause that. That is the equivalent of 8 ounces pushing on the back of a large primer.

Gbro · February 16, 2013, 04:39 PM

Frank I think you fell out of your hammock!
However I could go with pressure assisting somehow to cause that concave, but vacuum,

FrankenMauser · February 16, 2013, 04:58 PM

Seriously....

Snap cap, and a firing pin with a lot of protrusion.

wncchester · February 16, 2013, 05:04 PM

"Has anyone ever seen a primer do this???"

Yes. On duds. (NOT my own!

)

F. Guffey · February 17, 2013, 11:35 AM

David R. Forgive,

Quote:
Concaved, you are not going to believe this, vacuum,

Hoover or Electrolux?
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?

http://www.johntaylormachine.com/

Many years ago in an attempt to save time I started with a short lecture on listening. I started by explaining Mother Goose stories then stories written by THE BROTHERS GRIM, I explained ‘Once Upon a time ‘ as being the beginning of a story that never happened. I did not assume everyone understood ‘Once Upon a Time never happened’, I then moved on to newer versions of the same story.

Army stories starts with “Me and my buddy we were....etc..” A story that starts with “Me and my buddy we were etc..” is like a story by Mother Goose and the Grim Brothers, it just did not happen.

Navy stories start with “Now here this etc.. Again, it did not happen along with some versions starting with “Listen-up men....etc.. Never happened, just like a story by the Grim Brothers.

About that time everyone wanted to know about the the Air Force so I held one hand out and up, with the other hand out and down and then started with:

“There I was...etc.." By that time most had caught on I added truck drivers, “You are not going to believe this @%#”.

I then explained there are times I will take a liberty and tell them about an event that never happened , it could be a story I made up , it could be a story about an event that has been repeated as fact but was fiction.

As usual everything went as designed until I told them about an event that some found difficult to believe, one ask “Are you for real” without loosing time with an explanation another student said “He did not start with “You are not going to believe this”.

and Scorch ask
Quote:
Concaved, you are not going to believe this, vacuum,

Hoover or Electrolux?
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?

http://www.johntaylormachine.com/

F. Guffey

Ben Towe · February 22, 2013, 07:54 AM

Not to resurrect an old thread but I've been away a few days and want to thank everyone for their replies!

February 14, 2013, 10:29 AM	#1
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 1,128	Has anyone ever seen a primer do this???*Additional photos* I bought these fired brass the other day and this primer caught my eye. I can't figure out what in the world would have caused it to look like this.uploadfromtaptalk1360855600759.jpg See my post below for the additional photos. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2 Last edited by Ben Towe; February 15, 2013 at 01:18 AM. Reason: Update.*

February 14, 2013, 10:33 AM	#3
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: North Florida Posts: 1,346	Can't see clearly. Is it pushed in (concave)? __________________ I think this country is screwed.

February 14, 2013, 10:55 AM	#5
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	when you decap, see if it has an anvil... it's possible it may have still fired, but didn't have the anvil to support the cup... other than that... I suspect maybe the dry firing / snap cap theory ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 14, 2013, 11:06 AM	#7
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	my expirience with really light loads or no powder ( with a normal sized flash hole ) is the edges pooch out since the cartridge doesn't push back ( in a revolver, they can often scrub, & not allow the cylinder to rotate )... to me, the primer in picture doesn't look like primer pocket pressure acted on it last, like a light or no powder load __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 14, 2013, 11:30 AM	#10
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	22-250 machine gun death to p-doggies for sure... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 14, 2013, 10:33 AM	#2
eldermike Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2013 Location: NC Posts: 545	Looks like somone has been dry firing on it.

February 14, 2013, 10:56 AM	#6
CS86 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2012 Location: South Dakota Posts: 224	Could that be caused by a load that was loaded really light or no powder charge?

February 14, 2013, 11:22 AM	#8
GWS Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Location: New Mexico Posts: 688	My first thought was the result of tube fed cartridges with spitzer bullets.....spitzer pushing into the primer. But I can't remember seeing a tube-fed rifle chambered for 22-250. I would like to see the innards of that primer....how about depriming and posting another show and tell picture......maybe it is a cup only on a for-show only-round (no primer, no powder) and somebody tried to shoot it. I made some of those for cartridge boards and pulled the anvil out rather than use a spent primer that's dimpled. (soaked them for a while first)

February 14, 2013, 11:28 AM	#9
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Fired from a subgun. Oh wait, it's a rifle cartridge. Weird.

February 14, 2013, 03:31 PM	#11
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Used as a snap cap. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 14, 2013, 06:57 PM	#12
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	I have used empty cases as snap caps and never saw anything with them that looked different than any other empty case. Every time I shoot a cylinder of .454 Casull I run that cylinder of emptys 3-4 times dry firing. That primer is missing the anvil or the case has a HUGE flash hole??? Please post more pictures. __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

February 14, 2013, 08:55 PM	#13
Daveylikey Junior Member Join Date: February 14, 2013 Posts: 3	Looks to me like a loose primer pocket combined with a light load. Firing pin strikes the primer and pushes the whole cartridge forward in the chamber, pressure rises and unseats the primer first since it is loose. As pressure rises it seals the primer against the pocket. Pressure continues to build and sets the case back as the bullet begins to exit the cartridge and now since the anvil is free to float around in the extra space the primer ends up concaved since the firing pin is still pushing against the primer. Sometimes you will see this and the edges of the primer will be crushed also if the case sets back forcefully enough. If it was an average load it would have flattened the concave shape back out. A heavier load it would have just blown the primer out of the case. When you reprime the case note how much force it takes to put the new primer in. If there is little or no resistance you will probably want to trash the case. Might be like everyone else has said too (snap capped). I can't see more than one pin strike in the photo though.

February 14, 2013, 09:01 PM	#14
Tooltech Junior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Location: Mead, CO Posts: 12	When I first tried my RCBS hand priming tool, I mistakenly put the seating stem in side down. The first case I primed had that exact inverted dome look to it. I never tried to fire it, I just popped it out and put the next one in right.

February 15, 2013, 01:14 AM	#15
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 1,128	Here are some additional photos after de-priming. Note what appears to be tumbling media caught in the primers (I found another dished primer) and in the powder pan I used to catch the primers. Also the flash holes seem to be offset in the brass:uploadfromtaptalk1360908557942.jpg It also appears to have some marks which may be pressure signs. Here are some pictures of the primers:uploadfromtaptalk1360908670008.jpg uploadfromtaptalk1360908697335.jpg Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2 Last edited by Ben Towe; February 15, 2013 at 01:27 AM.

February 15, 2013, 02:31 AM	#16
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Used as a snap cap. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 15, 2013, 03:59 PM	#17
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Concaved, you are not going to believe this, vacuum, the bullet started down the barrel without enough pressure to force the bullet out, when the bullet got to the end of its travel a vacuum was created, with a choice, the bullet could have returned or the vacuum could have collapsed the primer. Then there was the time pressure escaped through a punctured primer with no place to go, it was one of those deals where the case fit the chamber at the shoulder and at the case head in front of the bolt face, the escaping gas had no place to go but back through the punctured primer hole, the high pressure captured gas could not escape fast enough so the primer collapsed from the center out, and that the story about the primer with the concaved appearance, AND! that is my story and I am sticking to it, as per ALEX HAWKINS. F. Guffey

February 15, 2013, 04:19 PM	#19
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	Large amounts of slow burn rate powder can come back and push in the case body. This happens because there is more pressure outside the case then inside. Never seen or heard of it being done to a primer. [IMG][/IMG]

February 16, 2013, 03:10 PM	#20
david_r Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2013 Posts: 131	I have trouble believing 14.7 PSI of pressure (vacuum is a lack of pressure) would cause that. That is the equivalent of 8 ounces pushing on the back of a large primer.

February 16, 2013, 04:39 PM	#21
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	Frank I think you fell out of your hammock! However I could go with pressure assisting somehow to cause that concave, but vacuum, __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

February 16, 2013, 04:58 PM	#22
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Seriously.... Snap cap, and a firing pin with a lot of protrusion. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 16, 2013, 05:04 PM	#23
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"Has anyone ever seen a primer do this???" Yes. On duds. (NOT my own! )

February 17, 2013, 11:35 AM	#24
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	David R. Forgive, Quote: Concaved, you are not going to believe this, vacuum, Hoover or Electrolux? __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? http://www.johntaylormachine.com/ Many years ago in an attempt to save time I started with a short lecture on listening. I started by explaining Mother Goose stories then stories written by THE BROTHERS GRIM, I explained ‘Once Upon a time ‘ as being the beginning of a story that never happened. I did not assume everyone understood ‘Once Upon a Time never happened’, I then moved on to newer versions of the same story. Army stories starts with “Me and my buddy we were....etc..” A story that starts with “Me and my buddy we were etc..” is like a story by Mother Goose and the Grim Brothers, it just did not happen. Navy stories start with “Now here this etc.. Again, it did not happen along with some versions starting with “Listen-up men....etc.. Never happened, just like a story by the Grim Brothers. About that time everyone wanted to know about the the Air Force so I held one hand out and up, with the other hand out and down and then started with: “There I was...etc.." By that time most had caught on I added truck drivers, “You are not going to believe this @%#”. I then explained there are times I will take a liberty and tell them about an event that never happened , it could be a story I made up , it could be a story about an event that has been repeated as fact but was fiction. As usual everything went as designed until I told them about an event that some found difficult to believe, one ask “Are you for real” without loosing time with an explanation another student said “He did not start with “You are not going to believe this”. and Scorch ask Quote: Concaved, you are not going to believe this, vacuum, Hoover or Electrolux? __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? http://www.johntaylormachine.com/ F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; February 17, 2013 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Change a M to a W, then I added one "

February 22, 2013, 07:54 AM	#25
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 1,128	Not to resurrect an old thread but I've been away a few days and want to thank everyone for their replies! __________________ 'Merica: Back to back World War Champs