Please tell me this won't work

[haiyter]

When i first bought my shotgun a long time ago, I didn't know about the different types of shells. Went to walmart and bought a box of those target loads there were about $7-10 a box. Later when I went to the range, not only did I found out I couldn't use this type of ammunition but they became useless as it just sits in my room collecting dust. So I gave it to a friend who thought it be a good idea to take out the mini target load pellets and replace it with bigger pellets. At first I thought it was a good idea but something kept bothering me thinking that it won't work for some reason. Someone enlighten me please.

[Mike Irwin]

OK, you're saying, if I grok you correctly, that he took out the lead shot from a factory shell and REPLACED it with larger lead shot?

Hum...

Not really something I would want to attempt.


Are you sure that he didn't fire the old rounds and then RELOAD the empty shells with a new primer, powder, and shot?

[haiyter]

Are you sure that he didn't fire the old rounds and then RELOAD the empty shells with a new primer, powder, and shot?

No, he was talking about it when i gave it to him. I guess he pried open the shell to see how small the target load was and his idea of taking it out and replacing it with bigger pellets came in.

[MagnumWill]

I think the best idea is to fire the shells, and then reload the hulls... If your friend isn't equipped to do that sort of thing, tell him that I think he's got a pretty good chance of banana-peeling the barrel on his shotgun.

...and seriously, how cheap can you be? Screwing with a 7 dollar box of ammo isn't worth (a) a destroyed gun or (b) an E.R. visit.

[jmr40]

Please enlighten us with more info. What type of gun, and chamber length. What type of shells, shot size, and length. Without this info it is hard to give you any advice.

[zippy13]

It could work in concept; but, you're talking about just one box of shells! After the shot is exchanged, special tools are required for a proper job of re-crimping the shells. The way the shells are now, they're fine for shooting targets. After your untrained friend's conversion, I wouldn't trust them for anything other than shooting holes in the sky on the Fourth of July (and, they can do that now).

[Mike Irwin]

Thinking about it some more, it would likely be a bit safer to go from a smaller pellet to a larger pellet. Using the same wad I would think it would tend to give a lighter shot charge overall.

However, if he were going from a larger pellet to a smaller pellet, that would tend to give a heavier shot charge and that could lead to big problems depending on the ballistics of the original load.

[zippy13]

^However, if he were going from a larger pellet to a smaller pellet, that would tend to give a heavier shot charge

Not necessarily so.
That's what I believed for years; but, contrary to common sense, it seems the packing volume of spheres is a constant regardless of the size of the spheres.

Ref. Weisstein, Eric W. "Sphere Packing." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web Resource. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SpherePacking.html

[Mike Irwin]

"That's what I believed for years; but, contrary to common sense, it seems the packing volume of spheres is a constant regardless of the size of the spheres."

That's not my experience, at least with buckshot.

Some years ago I pulled apart a Remington 2 3/4" No. 4 buckshot (27 pellets, folded crimp), and an S&B 2 2 3/4" 00 buck (12 pellets, roll crimp) shells.

The payload in the No. 4 buck shell weighed nearly half again as much as the 00 buck shell.

Those results might be skewed, however, based on the simple disparity of size and the 00 buck's diameter being a lot closer to the diameter of the shell, which would out of necessity make the packing (more stacking?) process a lot different.

Unfortunately, I'm out of all shot other than 7.5 shot (and I've got precious little of that), so I don't have anything that I can use to do a little fun time comparison with my old dram measure unless I start cutting open more shells, and I really don't want to do that...

[zippy13]

I'm pretty sure the math goes out the window as the size of the spheres approach the size of the container.

[Mike Irwin]

All I know for certain is that all that math gave me a headache...

[lipadj46]

Just let him do his thing and let nature run it's course. Call it evolution, survival of the fittest, Darwinism or whatever some genes just need to be removed from the pool

[Mike Irwin]

Probably won't be removed from the pool.

Kid I knew in high school. Couldn't tell him anything at all, he was the expert in all.

He decided that he wanted to create some super special dove loads and proceeded to pack stuff into a shell willy nilly.

No one knew what he was doing, of course, but even had they they probably wouldn't have been able to stop him.

The first shot blew the side out of an expensive double he was using, and the piece nearly amputated his arm at the elbow.

He had probably better than a dozen surgeries, was in a cast for over a year, and to this day has never regained full use of the arm.

And yet, he still has a couple of kids.

[.22lr]

The sphere packing thing is pretty neat, but I would expect some differences when it comes to shot shells.

1) The pellets loaded may not be the same alloy of lead (probablly a small diffrence) or they might not be lead at all, such as steel or heavi-shot (more pronounced diffrence.

2) Compression/deformation of the soft lead may lead to pellets that pack more densly than perfect spheres.

My MAJOR concern is that the gentleman/gentlewoman in question doesn't have the equipment or knowledge (I want to stress that I mean no dissrespect here.) to do this safely. If they are not aware of what is required to reload the shells safely please get them to purchase or borrow a decent lading manual or a book such as the "ABCs of Loading".


Quote from Mike Irwin:

if I grok you correctly

Grok? Mike, that is such a strange thing to say. With quotes like this I feel as if The Firing Line has become a Strange Land. Seriously, with a quote like this I feel as if you are some stranger from Mars.

Matt

[Mike Irwin]

Does that mean that I'm your favorite Martian?

Don't mind me. I'm just grumbling from the grave...

The sad part about it is, I've only ever read Star Ship Troopers.

Everything else I know about his work is the result of the continuous contact high from my ex-wife...

[.22lr]

But I'd share water with ya,

Starship Troopers was a fantastic book (its been a while), after seeing the movie...:barf

Now I promise to be good and stop taking things off topic.

Matt

[davlandrum]

Probably a dumb question, but that is what I specialize in....

Why in the heck couldn't you shoot target loads at the range? Isn't that what they were made for????

[zippy13]

I recall being introduced to grock in Stranger in a Strange Land, not Starship Troopers. RH coined a marvelous word with grock -- had it as a cross word puzzle clue the other day. Was there a reference to grock in Troopers? It's my understanding that Troopers was done (spring of 1958) during the middle of writing Stranger, so it's entirely possible -- interesting, eh?

[Mike Irwin]

No reference to grok in Starship Troopers that I remember.

Just my 10-year-Heinlein-contact-high with my ex wife.

[.45 COLT]

The larger the shot, the lighter the drop. That's using a MEC charge bar to meter the shot and weighing the drops. Lighter every time. Any mathematical manipulations that purport to prove differently should be viewed very skeptically.

As far as replacing one size with another, it'll work fine as long as the weight of the replacement shot doesn'r exceed the weight of the removed shot. (The replacement weight shouldn't be too much lighter either or a poor powder burn may result.)

DC

[ATANRA]

1 1/8 ounce of 9s = 11/8 ounce of 71/2 s if he weighs the shot all things remain constant. If he subs in steel for lead and shoots thru a full choke then he has a problem. Flawed logic is hard to correct.

[Jeff Mulliken]

The bottom line is that anyone who is not a skilled reloader is at risk doing anything like this.

If he did it and killed himself it would not be so bad but he'll probably maim himself and maybe a bystander and society will have to give him food, shelter and adult sized diapers till he dies. If he's lucky.....the only good that might come if it is he'll be eligable for a handicapped parking permit.

The only right advice to give is to use the shells "as is".

Jeff

[haiyter]

wow, so many replies that went off topic to something about starship troopers of the future lol

Probably a dumb question, but that is what I specialize in....

Why in the heck couldn't you shoot target loads at the range? Isn't that what they were made for????

Ranges are limited in California. Only place i know that allows people to shoot rifles and shotgun is up a mountain and in the middle of nowhere. They dont let people shoot buckshots/target loads because the rangemasters are afraid you might hit someone elses target and have them complain and cause problem/hate.

If he did it and killed himself it would not be so bad but he'll probably maim himself and maybe a bystander and society will have to give him food, shelter and adult sized diapers till he dies. If he's lucky.....the only good that might come if it is he'll be eligable for a handicapped parking permit.

well lets hope he doesn't so my tax paying money dont go to his poor candy ass hahaha

[OLNfan]

It will shoot just fine..may not work as well as intended but it will shoot just fine. Pellets per oz (28 g) is how its measured for powder. you will just have a gross amount of weakness in your shot. Your now shooting x size buck shot through whats set up to shoot birt shot. I think that should be correct, I havnt started reloading yet but I have read about it. all in all you can shoot it just fine depending on the set up of your shotgun I dont understand why you dont just go up in the bush and shoot it off. The only time I ever go to the range is when im sighting in a gun, or im shooting a wepaon not legal in the bush of canada.


for david theres alot of reasons. at my rod n gun we have a 100 yard outsdie rang and a 50 yard in door. I dont understand how my club is so nice, we live in the middle of the bush but I love it. ANYWHO we arent allowed to shoot shotguns in general anymore cause the stands we pin our targets on are gettin blown to shreds to quickly. also when ever I end up goin to the club I seem to be the only memeber there most the time. Occasionally I bump in to some one else but we just have soo many things at our club that its almost desolate. we have an archery range set up with 3d targets takes rougly 2 hrs to get through, shotgun skeet range, old western town range for competition, 2x shooting ranges indoor and out, and a camp ground with a numerous boat launching areas.

[jjyergler]

With larger sphere size, there will be more empty space. Smaller spheres pack more densely, therefore will be heavier given the same volume.

Deformation of lead will change the result, though it should still favor the smaller spheres.