Plus P loads?

Prof Young · July 20, 2019, 04:14 PM

Loaders:

Do plus p loads require brass rated for plus p? I'm specifically asking about 38 special. I have a rated-for-38-special-plus-p gun so no fears there. Just need to know about the brass?

Please talk to me.

Life is good.
Prof Young

BBarn · July 20, 2019, 05:04 PM

Modern 38 Special brass without the +P Mark will handle the higher +P pressure just fine. But it's a good practice to assemble +P loads into brass with the +P stamp. It can serve as a warning against it's use in a non+P rated gun.

Reloadron · July 20, 2019, 05:27 PM

There is no difference in the brass. Here is a quote from Starline Brass regarding their 38 Special +P brass.
"38 SPL+P has no difference from the standard 38 SPL, other than headstamp designation for load segregation. This is due to the fact that our standard case design will handle +P pressures with no problems".

This is inline with BBarn's post.

Ron

**Unclenick** · July 20, 2019, 08:42 PM

Even more than that, 38 Special brass and 44 Special brass were what the original 357 and 44 Magnum loads were worked up in. Those have significantly higher pressures than +P loads. The later magnum cases were given their greater length not because the Special cases couldn't stand the pressure, but just to stop the hotter Magnum loads from being possible to chamber in light Special revolver cylinders too thin to contain their pressure.

Prof Young · July 20, 2019, 08:57 PM

Loaders:

Thanks for the helpful information. I will proceed accordingly.

Life is good.
Prof Young

rodfac · July 21, 2019, 08:52 PM

Nick, I do recall a number of writers in the past, warning not to use canelured .38 Special brass from full wadcutter target loads when putting up .38-44 heavy duty loads. The implication was that it was thinner than regular .38 Spl. brass. Skelton mentions it in one of his long ago articles when assembling loads using Lyman's venerable 358156 gc bullet.

It's very possible that thinner target grade brass in .38 Spl. has gone the route of the Dodo and is no longer in circulation, but I'm an old, some would say very old, creature of habbit and avoid that canelured brass when loading to higher pressures.

What say you...is this still a concern? best regards, Rod

**Unclenick** · July 21, 2019, 09:36 PM

Just to be clear for other readers, Rod's referring to the S&W N-frame .38/44 that hosted many of the high-pressure experiments in the pre-Magnum days.

The cannelure rolled into those cases is a holdover from BP cartridge days when it was used as a bullet seating stop. It work-hardens the brass and the sharp ring type, especially, leaves it unable to withstand much expansion at that site, as highly work-hardened brass has a much-reduced ability to elongate (stretch) without breaking. As a result, it is prone to separating at that location when a high-pressure load expands the chamber a little, leaving the front part of the case in the chamber. It's not hard to get out, but gas-cutting of pits in the chamber at the site and the possibility of jamming up speed loading if the presence of that separated piece goes unnoticed are real concerns.

As to the brass actually being thinner, I have no personal knowledge of that, never having found any especially light WC cases. But I can imagine cases produced during war shortages might have been so constructed. There is no SAAMI standard for internal case dimensions beyond those of the primer pocket. Perhaps a cartridge collector can chime in with more relevant information on the topic, but blank brass is the only truly weaker brass I've run into.

Paul B. · July 22, 2019, 04:57 PM

Quote:

It's very possible that thinner target grade brass in .38 Spl. has gone the route of the Dodo and is no longer in circulation, but I'm an old, some would say very old, creature of habbit and avoid that canelured brass when loading to higher pressures.

What say you...is this still a concern? best regards, Rod

It could be. A while back I bought a case of Winchester .38 Spl. target ammo with wadcutter bullet. Can't speak about the thinness of the brass but it has two Cannelures and stretches badly during resizing. I'd stay away from that stuff if planning to do some Plus P loads.
Paul B.

**Unclenick** · July 24, 2019, 05:36 PM

Paul,

That's another point. The deep cannelures go in before trimming, I believe, so they won't shorten the trimmed case. But that also means the extra brass can feed stretching.

Do you still have a piece of that brass you can weigh? If it were significantly lighter than a standard 38 Special case, that would be a clue.

July 20, 2019, 04:14 PM	#1
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	Plus P loads? Loaders: Do plus p loads require brass rated for plus p? I'm specifically asking about 38 special. I have a rated-for-38-special-plus-p gun so no fears there. Just need to know about the brass? Please talk to me. Life is good. Prof Young

July 20, 2019, 08:42 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Even more than that, 38 Special brass and 44 Special brass were what the original 357 and 44 Magnum loads were worked up in. Those have significantly higher pressures than +P loads. The later magnum cases were given their greater length not because the Special cases couldn't stand the pressure, but just to stop the hotter Magnum loads from being possible to chamber in light Special revolver cylinders too thin to contain their pressure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 20, 2019, 08:57 PM	#5
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	Thanks much. Loaders: Thanks for the helpful information. I will proceed accordingly. Life is good. Prof Young

July 21, 2019, 08:52 PM	#6
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,624	Nick, I do recall a number of writers in the past, warning not to use canelured .38 Special brass from full wadcutter target loads when putting up .38-44 heavy duty loads. The implication was that it was thinner than regular .38 Spl. brass. Skelton mentions it in one of his long ago articles when assembling loads using Lyman's venerable 358156 gc bullet. It's very possible that thinner target grade brass in .38 Spl. has gone the route of the Dodo and is no longer in circulation, but I'm an old, some would say very old, creature of habbit and avoid that canelured brass when loading to higher pressures. What say you...is this still a concern? best regards, Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

July 21, 2019, 09:36 PM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Just to be clear for other readers, Rod's referring to the S&W N-frame .38/44 that hosted many of the high-pressure experiments in the pre-Magnum days. The cannelure rolled into those cases is a holdover from BP cartridge days when it was used as a bullet seating stop. It work-hardens the brass and the sharp ring type, especially, leaves it unable to withstand much expansion at that site, as highly work-hardened brass has a much-reduced ability to elongate (stretch) without breaking. As a result, it is prone to separating at that location when a high-pressure load expands the chamber a little, leaving the front part of the case in the chamber. It's not hard to get out, but gas-cutting of pits in the chamber at the site and the possibility of jamming up speed loading if the presence of that separated piece goes unnoticed are real concerns. As to the brass actually being thinner, I have no personal knowledge of that, never having found any especially light WC cases. But I can imagine cases produced during war shortages might have been so constructed. There is no SAAMI standard for internal case dimensions beyond those of the primer pocket. Perhaps a cartridge collector can chime in with more relevant information on the topic, but blank brass is the only truly weaker brass I've run into. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 20, 2019, 05:04 PM	#2
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Modern 38 Special brass without the +P Mark will handle the higher +P pressure just fine. But it's a good practice to assemble +P loads into brass with the +P stamp. It can serve as a warning against it's use in a non+P rated gun.

July 20, 2019, 05:27 PM	#3
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	There is no difference in the brass. Here is a quote from Starline Brass regarding their 38 Special +P brass. "38 SPL+P has no difference from the standard 38 SPL, other than headstamp designation for load segregation. This is due to the fact that our standard case design will handle +P pressures with no problems". This is inline with BBarn's post. Ron

July 24, 2019, 05:36 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Paul, That's another point. The deep cannelures go in before trimming, I believe, so they won't shorten the trimmed case. But that also means the extra brass can feed stretching. Do you still have a piece of that brass you can weigh? If it were significantly lighter than a standard 38 Special case, that would be a clue. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle