25-20 WCF brass

jag2 · July 19, 2019, 11:16 AM

I noticed there were a few listings for Win 25-20 brass on GB. Looks like new production in Win poly bags. Does anyone know if this is true new production or old stock that has been repackaged. A reloader that sells at local gun shows was all out of 25-20 a few months ago but last month was fully stocked so it makes me wonder if someone produced some recently.

**Unclenick** · July 19, 2019, 12:31 PM

No idea about that brass, but you can buy new 32-20 brass from Starline and form it down.

jag2 · July 19, 2019, 02:39 PM

I’ve read about that, may have seen a video. Tried it with little success but maybe I gave up to quickly. I’ve still got a couple of hundred so no immediate need. I also wrote to Powder Valley, thought they may know something but no joy.

Scorch · July 19, 2019, 03:00 PM

Winchester and Remington make "seasonal runs" of low-demand brass. "Seasonal" probably means whenever they don't have something else to do, so you buy it when and where it's available. Lots of people who frequent gun shows, obsolete ammo shows, etc, will buy up whole production lots of stuff in order to have it for their hobby and to make money, so you gotta buy it from them if you want it. I just got tired of all the up and down and rebored my Stevens 44 to 32-20, ammo for that is available.

**Unclenick** · July 21, 2019, 11:36 AM

Jag2,

The 32-20 case is 5 thousandths-and-change wider near the head and about twice that much wider at the body/shoulder intersect than the 25-20 is. These are not enough difference to cause much of a sizing problem if you use a good lube. The hard part is the neck, which is about 54 thousandths narrower.

Since there don't seem to be bushing dies for this chambering, something I would try is getting a Lee 25 ACP carbide sizing die and applying it just to the neck to get its diameter most of the way down before final sizing. The 25 ACP case body is a couple of thousandths wider than the 25-20 neck. Use a good lube, despite the carbide, because of the big change being made. After that, do your initial trim and then size the whole case in your 25-20 die (again, use a really good lube). Check to see if a final trim is needed. Any remaining small dimensional issues should fireform out.

rodfac · July 21, 2019, 12:17 PM

I use the following procedure to reform Starline .32-20 brass to .25-20. My loss rate is less than 1%.

Using .32-20 dies, round the .32-20 case mouth, chamfer, then anneal for 5-7 seconds in a Berz O Matic torch with the smallest flame you can get.
Very Lightly lube, inside and out with Imperial Sizing Wax.
With a 25-20 Seating die, set the shoulder back in two steps. A Very Light Lube will prevent final shoulder dents. By partially doing the shoulder set back, then finishing up, on the 2nd pass, you can get almost no rejects.
Use a 25-20 Sizing die w/o decapper to finish size.
Anneal again, then the square mouth & chamfer. I use a Lyman "M" die to re-expand the case mouth before seating either a jacketed or cast bullet.

It's important to slowly resize the .32-20 case during each step to prevent buckling the shoulder area, or folding the case neck. It sounds like this is an all-day job, but really goes fairly quickly once you get a "feel" for the case being reformed. The anneal steps help prevent rejects, and should be mastered. It's really a quick twirl in the flame and can be done bare handed with care. Be careful to not over anneal the neck. I hold only the tip of the neck in the flame and 7 seconds is the maximum, less is better!

With this reformed brass, I get as good accuracy from my M65 Winchester .25-20 as with original brass. I re-anneal every 5-7 reloads to prevent neck cracks.

HtH's Rod

**Unclenick** · July 21, 2019, 04:58 PM

Rod,

If starting with new Starline brass, the neck should be factory annealed. Have you really found it necessary to anneal beyond what the factory does to prevent loses?

rodfac · July 21, 2019, 08:23 PM

Nick: That first anneal, before sizing, even with new brass, seems to cut down on losses during the first sizing operation. I hate to mention it, as I got thoroughly flamed previously...but you can get a good anneal, if you're a bullet caster, by dipping the case neck into molten bullet alloy for 5-7 seconds. 700 degrees is the temp, and a well used bore brush run through the inside of the neck keeps the lead from sticking....I use gloves and a full face mask for this operation and have never had a blow back ... but generally I prefer the torch method.

For first sizing, I've also used a .270 sizing die to reduce the neck dia. prior to sizing with .25-20 dies. Normally, I use a .25-20 "Seating" die for initial sizing; it works as well as the .270, and you already have the die.

I'll add that it's really important to get the .32-20 case mouth absolutely round and chamfered, before sizing down, otherwise, I get a neck that's folded longitudinally. I use a .32-20 sizing die for this operation but a .30 carbine would probably work, or maybe .30 Luger, .32 H&R etc.

I made a point of mentioning that slowly pushing the case up into the die helps...so does slightly "bumping" it up into the die. I'm guessing it allows the brass to accomdate easier to the new size....with a very light film of lube, this works well and keeps the case neck from folding into a longitudinal crease.

Lastly, I'll add that I use Imperial Sizing Wax, very sparingly, as most all .32-20 brass is really pretty thin and doesn't need much at all. Over use of sizing lube results in shoulder dimples...but in use, these are easily ironed out on initial firing and the shots from dimpled cases are still well within the overall group. They just look funny!

HTH's Rod

**Unclenick** · July 22, 2019, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodfac

I hate to mention it, as I got thoroughly flamed previously...but you can get a good anneal, if you're a bullet caster, by dipping the case neck into molten bullet alloy for 5-7 seconds. 700 degrees is the temp, and a well used bore brush run through the inside of the neck keeps the lead from sticking.

That's one of Fred Barnes's preferred methods. I don't know why you'd be flamed for it. He dipped his cases in graphite to prevent the lead soldering to the case and rotated it between his fingers until the case started getting too hot to hold onto. It's a perfectly good method. I'm mainly just surprised it makes a difference to the outcome. Heavily work-hardened brass will anneal in a few seconds at that temperature, but brass that is already soft has to get closer to 850°F to start showing any change (lower potential energy in the stresses means higher recrystallization temperature for a given time).

But maybe I'm assuming too much. The shoulder on the 32-20 isn't exactly what you would call pronounced. Maybe, like pistol brass, they don't do a final neck anneal on it? We'd have to call to ask, but that would sure explain why you see a difference. It would also explain why jag2 had problems with the process.

T. O'Heir · July 22, 2019, 01:25 PM

According to Midway, Winchester makes it only when they feel like it. "Limited Production". They don't list ANY other brand.
They do, however, list Remington loaded 86 grain SP ammo at $69.99 per 50.
Ditto for Graf's. However, Graf's is listing something called "25-20 Single Shot"(dunno) made by Bertram(hence friggin' expensive) at $56.99 per 20 plus $9.95 shipping. They list the Remington ammo at $2 less as well.
"..."Seasonal" probably means..." We've all been guessing about that for eons. It's the same season as when they both make .30-40 Krag ammo and brass.

langenc · July 22, 2019, 01:56 PM

25-20 single shot is a totally different caliber-kinda like a skunk vs mallard.

**Unclenick** · July 22, 2019, 02:46 PM

Here the difference, with 25-20 Single Shot on the right.

July 19, 2019, 11:16 AM	#1
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	25-20 WCF brass I noticed there were a few listings for Win 25-20 brass on GB. Looks like new production in Win poly bags. Does anyone know if this is true new production or old stock that has been repackaged. A reloader that sells at local gun shows was all out of 25-20 a few months ago but last month was fully stocked so it makes me wonder if someone produced some recently.

July 19, 2019, 12:31 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	No idea about that brass, but you can buy new 32-20 brass from Starline and form it down. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 19, 2019, 03:00 PM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Winchester and Remington make "seasonal runs" of low-demand brass. "Seasonal" probably means whenever they don't have something else to do, so you buy it when and where it's available. Lots of people who frequent gun shows, obsolete ammo shows, etc, will buy up whole production lots of stuff in order to have it for their hobby and to make money, so you gotta buy it from them if you want it. I just got tired of all the up and down and rebored my Stevens 44 to 32-20, ammo for that is available. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

July 21, 2019, 11:36 AM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Jag2, The 32-20 case is 5 thousandths-and-change wider near the head and about twice that much wider at the body/shoulder intersect than the 25-20 is. These are not enough difference to cause much of a sizing problem if you use a good lube. The hard part is the neck, which is about 54 thousandths narrower. Since there don't seem to be bushing dies for this chambering, something I would try is getting a Lee 25 ACP carbide sizing die and applying it just to the neck to get its diameter most of the way down before final sizing. The 25 ACP case body is a couple of thousandths wider than the 25-20 neck. Use a good lube, despite the carbide, because of the big change being made. After that, do your initial trim and then size the whole case in your 25-20 die (again, use a really good lube). Check to see if a final trim is needed. Any remaining small dimensional issues should fireform out. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 21, 2019, 12:17 PM	#6
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,624	I use the following procedure to reform Starline .32-20 brass to .25-20. My loss rate is less than 1%. Using .32-20 dies, round the .32-20 case mouth, chamfer, then anneal for 5-7 seconds in a Berz O Matic torch with the smallest flame you can get. Very Lightly lube, inside and out with Imperial Sizing Wax. With a 25-20 Seating die, set the shoulder back in two steps. A Very Light Lube will prevent final shoulder dents. By partially doing the shoulder set back, then finishing up, on the 2nd pass, you can get almost no rejects. Use a 25-20 Sizing die w/o decapper to finish size. Anneal again, then the square mouth & chamfer. I use a Lyman "M" die to re-expand the case mouth before seating either a jacketed or cast bullet. It's important to slowly resize the .32-20 case during each step to prevent buckling the shoulder area, or folding the case neck. It sounds like this is an all-day job, but really goes fairly quickly once you get a "feel" for the case being reformed. The anneal steps help prevent rejects, and should be mastered. It's really a quick twirl in the flame and can be done bare handed with care. Be careful to not over anneal the neck. I hold only the tip of the neck in the flame and 7 seconds is the maximum, less is better! With this reformed brass, I get as good accuracy from my M65 Winchester .25-20 as with original brass. I re-anneal every 5-7 reloads to prevent neck cracks. HtH's Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

July 19, 2019, 02:39 PM	#3
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	I’ve read about that, may have seen a video. Tried it with little success but maybe I gave up to quickly. I’ve still got a couple of hundred so no immediate need. I also wrote to Powder Valley, thought they may know something but no joy.

July 21, 2019, 04:58 PM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Rod, If starting with new Starline brass, the neck should be factory annealed. Have you really found it necessary to anneal beyond what the factory does to prevent loses? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 21, 2019, 08:23 PM	#8
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,624	Nick: That first anneal, before sizing, even with new brass, seems to cut down on losses during the first sizing operation. I hate to mention it, as I got thoroughly flamed previously...but you can get a good anneal, if you're a bullet caster, by dipping the case neck into molten bullet alloy for 5-7 seconds. 700 degrees is the temp, and a well used bore brush run through the inside of the neck keeps the lead from sticking....I use gloves and a full face mask for this operation and have never had a blow back ... but generally I prefer the torch method. For first sizing, I've also used a .270 sizing die to reduce the neck dia. prior to sizing with .25-20 dies. Normally, I use a .25-20 "Seating" die for initial sizing; it works as well as the .270, and you already have the die. I'll add that it's really important to get the .32-20 case mouth absolutely round and chamfered, before sizing down, otherwise, I get a neck that's folded longitudinally. I use a .32-20 sizing die for this operation but a .30 carbine would probably work, or maybe .30 Luger, .32 H&R etc. I made a point of mentioning that slowly pushing the case up into the die helps...so does slightly "bumping" it up into the die. I'm guessing it allows the brass to accomdate easier to the new size....with a very light film of lube, this works well and keeps the case neck from folding into a longitudinal crease. Lastly, I'll add that I use Imperial Sizing Wax, very sparingly, as most all .32-20 brass is really pretty thin and doesn't need much at all. Over use of sizing lube results in shoulder dimples...but in use, these are easily ironed out on initial firing and the shots from dimpled cases are still well within the overall group. They just look funny! HTH's Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. Last edited by rodfac; July 21, 2019 at 08:42 PM.

July 22, 2019, 01:25 PM	#10
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	According to Midway, Winchester makes it only when they feel like it. "Limited Production". They don't list ANY other brand. They do, however, list Remington loaded 86 grain SP ammo at $69.99 per 50. Ditto for Graf's. However, Graf's is listing something called "25-20 Single Shot"(dunno) made by Bertram(hence friggin' expensive) at $56.99 per 20 plus $9.95 shipping. They list the Remington ammo at $2 less as well. "..."Seasonal" probably means..." We've all been guessing about that for eons. It's the same season as when they both make .30-40 Krag ammo and brass. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 22, 2019, 01:56 PM	#11
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	25-20 single shot is a totally different caliber-kinda like a skunk vs mallard.