The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 1, 2021, 12:43 PM   #1
WmMunny
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2021
Posts: 8
EDC Handgun Stick-outs

What’s with the push for stick-ons, stick-ups and stick-outs on concealed carry handguns?

Optical sights, red dots, green dots, lasers, flashlights, suppressors, extended base magazines…sheesh! The watch word for an EDC is concealable, guys. Not to mention that the extra cash would probably be better spent on extra ammo and range time.

How many technology gee-gaw add-ons does an experienced shooter need to end a threat at under seven yards?
WmMunny is offline  
Old December 1, 2021, 12:59 PM   #2
Moonglum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2015
Posts: 449
You do you?
__________________
:Skating On Thin Ice
Moonglum is offline  
Old December 1, 2021, 02:35 PM   #3
Doc Intrepid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 977
Have you shot handguns with 'stick-outs' recently?

Completely unscientific experienced-based testing by numerous shooters who HAVE fired 'stick-outs' led many to conclude that target acquisition is faster using red dot sights.

This goes in spades for encounters at night or in low ambient light environments.

Your question also suggests you may be a younger guy - shooters who are 60-somethings and beyond, and whose eyes do not work like they did as 20-somethings, also often note faster target acquisition using optics on pistols.

While your question referenced 'under 7 yards', longer shots during encounters when adversaries are moving are certainly plausible. Red dot sights also appear to increase the speed with which targets at longer ranges may rapidly be acquired and accurately hit.

So depending on your personal circumstances, your age, your specific environment(s), and other parameters, optical sights on pistols work much better for some shooters than conventional iron sights.

If you haven't shot different courses of fire using them, to compare for your own purposes, you might not pick up on that.

In gunfights only hits count. Red dots make hits far more likely for many shooters.

JMHO. You do you.
__________________
Treat everyone you meet with dignity and respect....but have a plan to kill them just in case.
Doc Intrepid is online now  
Old December 1, 2021, 05:34 PM   #4
BornFighting88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 259
Yeah and the vast majority of these “stick-outs” red dots etc…. They only improve the chance of ending the threat. Not having to fumble with sights, and just a dot on target and press the trigger?? Yes please, I’ll take that action.

I’m just in my mid 30’s and I’d consider one of those things. My problem is my loyalty to the 1911 platform, and that my EDC is an officer’s pistol. You can go through the process of getting one on there, but its not in the cards right now.

Like the others have been saying…. You do you.
BornFighting88 is offline  
Old December 1, 2021, 05:49 PM   #5
Forte S+W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 724
Unfortunately, point shooting is a lost art of almost legendary proportions which some believe is impossible, lining up sights quickly takes a lot of training not to mention a steady hand in stressful situations, and these days folks are often more concerned with what-if scenarios than practical effectiveness, so regardless of the fact that most armed confrontations take place at relatively close range, people like the idea that they theoretically could defend themselves at long distance with a handgun.

Personally, I think that Red Dots make a lot of sense on Full-Size Duty Pistols because they add only minimum size/weight to the package, but on a Micro Compact Concealed Carry piece... Meh, not for me... But a big part of being able to prevail in a gunfight is confidence, so if having a Red Dot Optic on a CCW adds significant confidence, then I say go for it. I don't feel convincec that they're anywhere near as necessary as advocates claim they are, but they do offer an advantage and don't have a significant downside, so whatever.
__________________
Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.
Forte S+W is offline  
Old December 1, 2021, 06:07 PM   #6
Rob228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2010
Location: Hampstead NC
Posts: 1,223
I can shoot my EDC with a red dot faster and more accurately than I can with my identical former EDC with no dot. It also doesn't add any significant bulk or weight to the package.

I've also decided that printing is not my problem, its only a problem for people who are bothered by it and I couldn't care less if they are.
Rob228 is offline  
Old December 1, 2021, 09:25 PM   #7
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,485
I've pointed out to people before that a Trijicon RMR red dot weighs all of 1.17 oz (with a battery). The fact that the red dots protrude from the pistol is a fact, however, I haven't found that it noticeably impacts concealment with a pistol at or behind the hip or in an appendix position. YMMV. For my eyesight with corrective lenses a red dot makes shooting dramatically easier as my prescription allows me to make a positive identification (with respect to if that assailant does or doesn't have a weapon in hand), but makes a front sight fuzzy. Now others get around this by modifying their prescriptions with their optometrist or having one lens for this or that, but I would rather just use my standard glasses at all times.

To the comment about point shooting, point shooting and red dots are not mutually exclusive. There are absolutely times when given proximity to an attacker I would point shoot. And then there are times I wouldn't. I took a two day course solely on reflexive (point) shooting. We literally taped over the sights on our pistols for the majority of the course so that we couldn't use them if we wanted to (consciously or not). The final drill of that course was a walk back drill to see where the wheels started to fall off. By 7 yards the time it took most of us to acquire our sights was offset by the accuracy we gained from using our sights as opposed to point shooting. That's the distance across many of the rooms in my home, it's not particularly long range. This was at the end of two days of 500 rd a day (pre-pandemic ammo prices) when all of us were at our A game.

We often see the "rule of 3s" repeated, that being "most shootings" occur within 3 yd, involve 3 shots, and take 3 seconds or less. But I have never seen someone provide evidence to back up this claim. More so, there have been many shootings that are well outside of that. Shootings are also dynamic, in that people don't generally want to stand still and get shot. An altercation might start close and then the distances increase as people try to get away or move to cover. Sighted fire starts becoming more appealing at distance. As opposed to iron sights an advantage with red dots is you can stay target focused the entire time as you're merely superimposing a dot on a target, not lining up sights and then lining up those sights on the target.

At the end of the day the overwhelming majority of us will never have to use our firearms to defend ourselves. We're all of us taking precautions against something that is statistically unlikely, but we've decided that some level of preparation is still warranted. If someone wants a red dot, light, or laser because they have decided it is beneficial and they don't find using it impacts their likelihood to carry that firearm then more power to them. By the same token if someone doesn't want those items, then more power to them.

In all my years on this forum one of the most prevailing attitudes seems to be to validate our own choices by dismissing the choices of others. It's not needed. I had an instructor that would say, "I won't be in your gunfight". Do what works for you.
__________________
Know the status of your weapon
Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture
Maintain situational awareness
TunnelRat is online now  
Old December 1, 2021, 10:33 PM   #8
Mike38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Location: North Central Illinois
Posts: 2,584
But what if the red dot sight fails? You have to resort to point shooting. The transition from finding out your sight has failed you, then deciding you are forced to point shoot...you just lost valuable time. I'm 62 years old, just found out today from my eye doctor I have the early stages of cataracts. Fixed open sights on my EDC pistol, and it will stay that way.

Over the years I've had red dot sights fail me twice in competitions. While it's frustrating, it didn't cost me my life.
Mike38 is offline  
Old December 1, 2021, 10:56 PM   #9
DT Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 901
Most folks running optical sights on carry guns have co-witnessed irons as back-up.


Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is offline  
Old December 1, 2021, 11:33 PM   #10
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,485
EDC Handgun Stick-outs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike38
Over the years I've had red dot sights fail me twice in competitions. While it's frustrating, it didn't cost me my life.

At this point I have multiple red dots on pistols that have been shot for a little over 2,000 rounds each with timeframes approaching two years on some of those. None of them have failed. Can they fail? Yes, just like a firearm can malfunction. Similar to practicing clearing malfunctions, you should also practice using the cowitness iron sights on your pistol. Now I agree there is a moment of recognition associated with all of this, but so is there in realizing you had a failure to fire and need to perform a tap and rack. Certain red dot optics are incredibly reliable and durable. There are a number of budget options that are not as much. You have to make a call if the risk of failure is worth it for you in the first place, and then how much you want to spend on the red dot.

An RMR at 20,000 rounds, including 40 shoulder height drop tests and the optic used against barricades to clear malfunctions dozens of times. Now in fairness to your point the poster, Aaron Coawn, admits nothing is infallible. But it is an interesting data point of how durable and reliable a red dot on a pistol can be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yzpJBrLU5U

Last edited by TunnelRat; December 3, 2021 at 05:25 PM.
TunnelRat is online now  
Old December 2, 2021, 08:47 AM   #11
Schlitz 45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 282
My carry pistols all have iron sites & flush magazines. I have a 365X slide from SIG with a Romeo Zero that I swap onto my 365 & trained with but never carried it-I do much better/faster/accurate with iron sites. My times were close with the red dot but most times doing draw & fire drills I found myself hesitating for a split second as my eyes searched to pick up the red dot. Love the Holosuns on my AR & CZ TSO on the range & as much as I wanted to love the red dot for SD it's not the best for me.
Schlitz 45 is online now  
Old December 2, 2021, 09:04 AM   #12
WmMunny
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2021
Posts: 8
OP here.

Well. from the tone of most of the comments, it seems I pretty much had it wrong about add-ons for EDC handguns. That...or maybe the firearms and accessories companies' Vice Presidents of Marketing and their gun-writer buddies are really earning their keep ;-)
WmMunny is offline  
Old December 2, 2021, 12:23 PM   #13
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,485
EDC Handgun Stick-outs

These are things that, imo, are worth trying for yourself. Maybe we’re all brainwashed shills, or maybe some of us actually tried them and found a benefit for ourselves. They’re also things that can take quite some time to get used to. It took me months of shooting pistols with red dots before I was no longer searching for the dot, but rather my presentation was such that the red dot was just “there” when I brought the pistol up. Until I got to that point I was faster with iron sights.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old December 2, 2021, 12:40 PM   #14
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,290
I don't have a handgun with a RMR whatever; I'm afraid if I got use to it that would negatively impact my ability with handguns that didn't have one.

For people that use them and shoot better, can't fault that.
__________________
Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is offline  
Old December 3, 2021, 06:39 PM   #15
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 4,959
WmMunny---an interesting topic. Everybody's entitled to their own opinions. On this site I am constantly made happy by the fact that overwhelmingly folks are polite in their postings.

P.S. And if folk didn't post opinions what in the world would we have to talk about?
DaleA is offline  
Old December 3, 2021, 08:16 PM   #16
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 14,829
Quote:
The watch word for an EDC is concealable, guys. Not to mention that the extra cash would probably be better spent on extra ammo and range time.
For years, literally years, I have been telling people don't hang a laser on your carry gun, don't hang a red dot on your carry, don't put night sights on your carry, don't put a light on your carry gun. Why? Because as civilians our guns are powder burn distance weapons, no red dot/laser/flashlight/tritium sights needed. Besides, those things get in the way when you're carrying, and (more importantly) when you're trying to deploy it. But people see this cool stuff on TV shows and decide it's time to dress up their "adult Barbie dolls" (Ooooooh! Laser dots!). Different strokes, I guess. As for me, if I ever have to fish out my go-bang in a hurry I don't want anything grabbing on my clothes.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Scorch is offline  
Old December 3, 2021, 08:30 PM   #17
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorch
Because as civilians our guns are powder burn distance weapons, no red dot/laser/flashlight/tritium sights needed.
Except there are numerous counter examples to this (unless your handgun causes powder burns at impressive distances). For that matter in my own home the distances generally aren't powder burn distances. When I come home while carrying I keep the same pistol on me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorch
But people see this cool stuff on TV shows and decide it's time to dress up their "adult Barbie dolls" (Ooooooh! Laser dots!).
This is what I was referring to when I said this above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat
In all my years on this forum one of the most prevailing attitudes seems to be to validate our own choices by dismissing the choices of others.
__________________
Know the status of your weapon
Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture
Maintain situational awareness
TunnelRat is online now  
Old December 5, 2021, 11:51 AM   #18
NeverEnough
member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: PA
Posts: 25
My Hellcat with RMR conceals just fine w/the RMR on it.

God forbid I ever need it, the red dot is easier to find vs lining up sights
NeverEnough is offline  
Old December 5, 2021, 07:12 PM   #19
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,204
Not all shootings happen at 7yds or less. not all incidents where a firearm is used but not discharges happen at 7yds or less.

Lasers, have come a long way and there are lots of great low profile setups.

lights, I am a huge fan of. Its dark half of any given day. Seeing your target can be the difference between a good and bad shoot. Yes there are pros and cons to weapon mounted lights vs hand held. however operating a firearm with a light on it is much easier than holding one at the same time.

sights, red dots can be a great tool. They can increase accuracy at range with compact guns. I have not been able to try one yet, but I am looking to get a full sized gun with try one with in the not too distant future.

suppressors, are super cool but not terrible practical IMHO, and I don't think they are applicable for concealed carry guns... your stretching it a bit there.

compensators is what you might be thinking of. peopel carry full sized guns. if someone wants to carry a compact or sub compact with one for quicker follow up shots, its not different than a ported gun to me.

extended base plates, can be an excellent tool. Generally they are not intended to be carried in an edc gun, but as the backup mag with the flush mag in the gun.

All in all, options are good. Just because they are options does not mean you have to use all of them, or any of them. Use what suits your needs. let other use what suits theirs.

EDC stands for every day carry, no where in there is it stated or implied that is must be compact or concealable. I have infrequently open carried. I have also conceal carried 1911s and g17s with minimal issues and could have put a light, laser, compensator, and red dot on them and still conceal carried them if need be. There are other ways to carry things than IWB or pocket. And I have co workers who have compact guns with lights and red dots that they carry IWB without issue.
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old December 5, 2021, 07:36 PM   #20
Rob228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2010
Location: Hampstead NC
Posts: 1,223
I had been very opposed to a larger magazine well on my EDC, until I discovered that it locks my firing hand in the same place every time on the draw. I don't typically carry a spare magazine so I am definitely not using it for ints intended purpose but my group sizes and timer don't lie and I go with what it tells me.
Rob228 is offline  
Old December 6, 2021, 10:46 AM   #21
jmhyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2012
Location: MS - USA
Posts: 876
To emphasize/reiterate Shadow's point...
Many of us cut our teeth on conceal-carrying guns the size of 1911s and G17s. It was what we had. To have all these "add-ons" with microcompact handguns doesn't make them any more wieldy that we are accustomed to. I absolutely love my P365XL with red dot. It's still smaller and lighter than many of my previous options and my aging eyes are happy, too.
jmhyer is offline  
Old December 6, 2021, 12:51 PM   #22
totaldla
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2009
Posts: 1,073
The stick outs are a marketing gimmick that sells pistols. Didn't you ever wonder how anyone would buy the Taurus Judge or SW Governor pistols? Obviously there is a very strong market for stuff people want as opposed to what people need.

What they need is a giant pile of ammo and a place to shoot. What they want is to play fantasy dress up.

I've been carrying concealed for 25+ years and the last thing I want is more bulk in my carry piece.

There millions of new shooters out there who are just beginning to try stuff. They've got some free money from Uncle Sam and manufacturers have put lots of shiney bobbles in front of them.

IMHO of course.
totaldla is offline  
Old December 6, 2021, 01:00 PM   #23
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,485
EDC Handgun Stick-outs

I’ve been carrying concealed for as long as I’ve been on this forum. I have a place to shoot and about more ammo than I’ve ever had in years par (having kids now I find getting the time to shoot is harder than having ammunition to shoot). I’m not interested in playing fantasy dress up. I am interested in devices that make a meaningful impact on my shooting. The “free money” I got from Uncle Sam (which was my own tax money given back to me) I put in an account for my kids’ education.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by TunnelRat; December 6, 2021 at 01:12 PM.
TunnelRat is online now  
Old December 6, 2021, 03:30 PM   #24
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,513
Quote:
Yes there are pros and cons to weapon mounted lights vs hand held. however operating a firearm with a light on it is much easier than holding one at the same time.
Which is a pro and a con at the same time. We've had this discussion here many times, and it always comes down to personal choice. Personally, I think a light on a defensive weapon is a poor idea. A light and a defensive weapon is a better idea.

Isn't the point of a concealed weapon that it doesn't have "stick outs" that could interfere with drawing from concealment??

And also, isn't the point of a compact firearm to be a compact firearm, and everything you add to it that increases its bulk detracts from that?

How much that matters is an individual thing, so, its up to you to decide what is, and isn't for you.


I have some scoped handguns, I have a red dot sight on one of my handguns. But its a 14" Contender in .45-70. Not what most would consider for a concealed or EDC gun.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 7, 2021, 02:33 AM   #25
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,078
I never even got around to putting the night sights on my EDC. I do practice with it as often as I can. I can say one thing I always have with me, and it has come in handy a LOT, is my Surefire G2 flashlight in a Surefire hard carrier. However, I am not an "operator" in any way shape or sense of the word, just another fat old man. I HAVE a pistol that has the removable plate for a red dot, maybe some day I'll put one on, and it probably won't bulk up anything much, since it lies in the same plane as the flat of the gun, up against the body. Anything else, no, not rally interested, but it certainly doesn't mean anyone is wrong for doing it, as long as they practice with the equipment regularly.
armoredman is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06748 seconds with 10 queries