Id primers and interchanging primers

Mandoair · October 8, 2021, 11:40 PM

Hope to find Help. I need lp primers I have lpm primers. Looking for advice do I use mag primers in med load 10mm or chicken out. ❓❓. Also have primers I can not id. Is there a way to id primers. ❓. All I have to go by is size Thanks

Shadow9mm · October 9, 2021, 03:48 AM

I have used small rifle in place of both small pistol and small pistol magnum. The 3 seem to be, generally interchangeable. However it is a must that you re-work the load from start with the new primer, just to verify its not acting oddly.

mehavey · October 9, 2021, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Also have primers I can not id...

^^^^ ??? ^^^^

**Unclenick** · October 9, 2021, 11:20 AM

Mandoair,

Are the ones you can't identify in packages that are unfamiliar or are they loose primers?

If you have unfamiliar packaging, see if you can post a link to a photo of the box on Imgur or another host site (you won't be able to post photos directly until you have more posts and have had your status change from junior member to senior member). We may be able to tell from the package.

If they are loose primers they are very hard to ID. Manufacturers change them from time to time. You can tell large pistol primers from large rifle primers. The rifle primers average about 0.009" taller. But you can't tell standard primers from magnum primers that way.

If I had a number of loose primers, I would group them by appearance and then weigh them. Higher weight will generally mean rifle primers or magnum primers due to the cups being thicker or the priming mix quantity being greater.

If I had just a few loose primers, I would take the approach that if they fit they are OK for light target loads and just load them that way for practice.

Mandoair · October 9, 2021, 02:29 PM

Thanks for the input. I did find SAAMI data on the size of primers very little help there. The primers I have are mixed. There aren’t very many of course there aren’t very many anywhere.

My biggest quandary is I have 1000 lpm primers (yes very glad to have them ) and I want to use them in 10 mm target loads. I don’t know what the differences is in primers are can only assume the magnums or a lot hotter The difference in size between the rifle and pistol primers is negligible they overlap except for the hight.
It’s a huge gray area best to be avoided but I don’t think I can avoid it. I’ve read about people using Lp primers in 44 magnum but not about using magnum in 10 mm. I wonder about safety of course and how much to load down for an experiment. And not to worry I will not hold anybody responsible for my idiocy. Thanks all input appreciated.

Shadow9mm · October 9, 2021, 09:38 PM

Don't use large rifle in large pistol. They are not the same size and it's asking for trouble.

All the smalls are the same size, although I wound not use a small magnum rifle in a pistol.

There are no specs for primers. Each company has its own compound mix, Cup thickness, Cup hardness, and compound quantities.

Magnum primers are intended to ignite hard to ignite powders, usually ball type. Powders burn at a consistent rate, some are just harder to start than others.

In my experience using small primers, using small pistol, small pistol magnum, and small rifle in 9mm, 38spl, and 357 mag, of cci and Winchester variety I have noted only small differences. Perhaps 10 to 20fps on a given load. Small rifle ignites full charges of powders recommended for magnum primers only without issue in my 357 mag.

I would not hesitate to use large pistol magnums. I would start at the recommended start load in your manual and work up like normal. If you want to be extra cautious, go 10% below start. But make sure the case is not too empty, that has its own problems, and the load may be too weak to cycle the gun.

Mandoair · October 10, 2021, 10:44 PM

Thanks I am encouraged to go ahead with some loads for the 10m with cci 350 primers and AA# 9 It Is the slowest I have. Maybe try AA #5 because I have more of it after my little #9 runs out. I did find some load data for cci 350’s and #9.

101combatvet · October 11, 2021, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

I have used small rifle in place of both small pistol and small pistol magnum. The 3 seem to be, generally interchangeable. However it is a must that you re-work the load from start with the new primer, just to verify its not acting oddly.

They are NOT interchangeable! If they were, then why are they package differently?

Shadow9mm · October 11, 2021, 11:43 AM

Actually, with 357 mag and AA#9 magnum primers are recommended. It supposedly one of the harder to ignite ball powders along with others.

I tired AA #7 in 9mm and found it was too slow for my 4in barrel. I tested for 7.8gr up to 8.6g in 0.2g increments with 115g fmj. there was no velocity increase after 8.0g. I need to re-test with the 124s I'm currently using, might get a better burn with the heavier bullets and lighter charge.

depending on barrel length, bullet weight, and charge weight AA #9 might work well for you.

Shadow9mm · October 11, 2021, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 101combatvet

They are NOT interchangeable! If they were, then why are they package differently?

I said generally interchangeable. here is a video from a ammo remanufacturing company with 9mm pressure testing comparing the 3. I have personally found more variation when switching brands than between types within the same manufacturer. I work each load up from start just like changing brand, and I recommend everyone else do the same. But in my testing and experience the difference is minimal if any.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGVRGsoOr6k

**44 AMP** · October 11, 2021, 12:20 PM

Small pistol, small pistol magnum, small rifle and small rifle magnum are all interchangeable IN THE SENSE THAT THEY WILL ALL FIT IN THE SAME SPACE.

Other than that, they have differences and are NOT identical, other than in physical size.

None of which is relevant to the OP which asks about LARGE PISTOL magnum primers.

Large pistol magnum primers will work in any case that uses large pistol primers. They will raise pressures a bit, how much, no one can say with certainty, without testing specific combinations. Will they raise pressure to dangerous levels?? Very unlikely. Could they raise pressure to unsuitable levels? Possibly, depending on the specifics involved.

Personally, with the current shortages, I would not WASTE large pistol magnums on regular loads where they are not needed.

I realize they're all you've got at thge moment, and you want to use them to shoot your gun, and you can, BUT, consider this, somewhere out there is somebody in your exact situation, reversed. They have standard primers and want/need magnums.

Rather than waste the magnums just so you can shoot NOW, I'd curb my immediate desires and look to trade the magnums for standard primers. Doing that benefits both parties, and costs very little other than time.

Consider also posting the trade opportunity on paper at your local range, or shooting club and any other suitable places, as there are people with stashes of stuff that aren't on the Internet.

101combatvet · October 11, 2021, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

I said generally interchangeable. here is a video from a ammo remanufacturing company with 9mm pressure testing comparing the 3. I have personally found more variation when switching brands than between types within the same manufacturer. I work each load up from start just like changing brand, and I recommend everyone else do the same. But in my testing and experience the difference is minimal if any.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGVRGsoOr6k

Funny that you never answered the question.

Shadow9mm · October 11, 2021, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 101combatvet

Funny that you never answered the question.

Marketing and cost savings, does that satisfy you?

Winchester large pistol primers are now marked " Large Pistol, for standard or magnum pistol loads"

101combatvet · October 12, 2021, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

Marketing and cost savings, does that satisfy you?

Winchester large pistol primers are now marked " Large Pistol, for standard or magnum pistol loads"

No, that makes zero sense. If primers were interchangeable they would all be in the same boxes just labeled large and small.

Shadow9mm · October 12, 2021, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 101combatvet

No, that makes zero sense. If primers were interchangeable they would all be in the same boxes just labeled large and small.

No, it makes perfect sense. Think about them like car tires. All season, winter, sport. You can drive your car on all of them, they are all within the tolerance window. Some are just better suited to specific use, but all will let you drive your car.

101combatvet · October 12, 2021, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

No, it makes perfect sense. Think about them like car tires. All season, winter, sport. You can drive your car on all of them, they are all within the tolerance window. Some are just better suited to specific use, but all will let you drive your car.

Tires are NOT interchangeable. My God, man!

**Unclenick** · October 12, 2021, 12:05 PM

101combatvet,

It can happen. Back around 2005 or so I called CCI and the lady who answered the phone back then before the big conglomerate bought them assured me that a lot of their employees bought the CCI 400 and used it both for rifle and magnum handgun loads. She even looked on their database and told me the cups were the same and anvils were the same and the amount of priming mix (same mix used in both) was the same. Just different box labels.

Since then, the formulations have changed a little. If you call CCI today, they will tell you they are not the same and not to interchange them. The test Shadow9mm refers to is this one. But that's in a pistol cartridge. In another video, the CCI rifle and magnum pistol primers are interchanged in a rifle, and the rifle primers produce more velocity. In this video a rifle starts making loose primer pockets when the primer brand and type is changed.

A couple of comments related to the thread in general are in order:

According to Allan Jones, who worked on this stuff for CCI at one time, primer compositions and formulations change more often than people realize and the changes are not announced. Naturally, the primer maker want to avoid making past recipes obsolete, so the performance change is generally not dramatic, but there can be a bit, which is why we set out loads back and work up with a primer change) and check to see if we have to adjust our powder charge to hit a given velocity.

Pistols cartridges are not rifle cartridges. The powder space is small. One result is that more powerful primers can sometimes start unseating a bullet before the powder's pressure builds enough to do it, and this increases the powder's starting burn space. A magnum primer's primary function is to make a greater quantity of initiating gas than a standard primer does, and an ironic result that can sometimes be observed is a magnum primer can actually reduce velocity and pressure because of that effect. But is isn't guaranteed, so don't assume it will happen. Just assume you will have to reduce powder and work a load back up with a change in primer.

Don't extrapolate from what happens with one brand to another. CCI 550 and 400 primers may be fine in the 9 mm, but I would not assume from that I can do the same with other brands. There are several tests of primer effect on muzzle velocity you can find online. Sometimes it is what you'd expect, and sometimes it isn't. So always back down and work up.

HiBC · October 12, 2021, 03:31 PM

The greatest concern I have about this post is primers not in original packaging.

The little trays that keep primers separated are there for safety reasons.
I do not know how your unknown primers are packaged, but if.for example,they are in a small glass jar, it may become an exploding fragmentation grenade if you drop it.

October 8, 2021, 11:40 PM	#1
Mandoair Junior Member Join Date: March 5, 2021 Location: Kenai Alaska Posts: 8	Id primers and interchanging primers Hope to find Help. I need lp primers I have lpm primers. Looking for advice do I use mag primers in med load 10mm or chicken out. ❓❓. Also have primers I can not id. Is there a way to id primers. ❓. All I have to go by is size Thanks Last edited by Mandoair; October 9, 2021 at 01:25 AM. Reason: Spelling

October 9, 2021, 03:48 AM	#2
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,966	I have used small rifle in place of both small pistol and small pistol magnum. The 3 seem to be, generally interchangeable. However it is a must that you re-work the load from start with the new primer, just to verify its not acting oddly. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

October 9, 2021, 11:20 AM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Mandoair, Are the ones you can't identify in packages that are unfamiliar or are they loose primers? If you have unfamiliar packaging, see if you can post a link to a photo of the box on Imgur or another host site (you won't be able to post photos directly until you have more posts and have had your status change from junior member to senior member). We may be able to tell from the package. If they are loose primers they are very hard to ID. Manufacturers change them from time to time. You can tell large pistol primers from large rifle primers. The rifle primers average about 0.009" taller. But you can't tell standard primers from magnum primers that way. If I had a number of loose primers, I would group them by appearance and then weigh them. Higher weight will generally mean rifle primers or magnum primers due to the cups being thicker or the priming mix quantity being greater. If I had just a few loose primers, I would take the approach that if they fit they are OK for light target loads and just load them that way for practice. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 9, 2021, 09:38 PM	#6
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,966	Don't use large rifle in large pistol. They are not the same size and it's asking for trouble. All the smalls are the same size, although I wound not use a small magnum rifle in a pistol. There are no specs for primers. Each company has its own compound mix, Cup thickness, Cup hardness, and compound quantities. Magnum primers are intended to ignite hard to ignite powders, usually ball type. Powders burn at a consistent rate, some are just harder to start than others. In my experience using small primers, using small pistol, small pistol magnum, and small rifle in 9mm, 38spl, and 357 mag, of cci and Winchester variety I have noted only small differences. Perhaps 10 to 20fps on a given load. Small rifle ignites full charges of powders recommended for magnum primers only without issue in my 357 mag. I would not hesitate to use large pistol magnums. I would start at the recommended start load in your manual and work up like normal. If you want to be extra cautious, go 10% below start. But make sure the case is not too empty, that has its own problems, and the load may be too weak to cycle the gun. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

October 11, 2021, 12:20 PM	#11
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,803	Small pistol, small pistol magnum, small rifle and small rifle magnum are all interchangeable IN THE SENSE THAT THEY WILL ALL FIT IN THE SAME SPACE. Other than that, they have differences and are NOT identical, other than in physical size. None of which is relevant to the OP which asks about LARGE PISTOL magnum primers. Large pistol magnum primers will work in any case that uses large pistol primers. They will raise pressures a bit, how much, no one can say with certainty, without testing specific combinations. Will they raise pressure to dangerous levels?? Very unlikely. Could they raise pressure to unsuitable levels? Possibly, depending on the specifics involved. Personally, with the current shortages, I would not WASTE large pistol magnums on regular loads where they are not needed. I realize they're all you've got at thge moment, and you want to use them to shoot your gun, and you can, BUT, consider this, somewhere out there is somebody in your exact situation, reversed. They have standard primers and want/need magnums. Rather than waste the magnums just so you can shoot NOW, I'd curb my immediate desires and look to trade the magnums for standard primers. Doing that benefits both parties, and costs very little other than time. Consider also posting the trade opportunity on paper at your local range, or shooting club and any other suitable places, as there are people with stashes of stuff that aren't on the Internet. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 9, 2021, 02:29 PM	#5
Mandoair Junior Member Join Date: March 5, 2021 Location: Kenai Alaska Posts: 8	Thanks Thanks for the input. I did find SAAMI data on the size of primers very little help there. The primers I have are mixed. There aren’t very many of course there aren’t very many anywhere. My biggest quandary is I have 1000 lpm primers (yes very glad to have them ) and I want to use them in 10 mm target loads. I don’t know what the differences is in primers are can only assume the magnums or a lot hotter The difference in size between the rifle and pistol primers is negligible they overlap except for the hight. It’s a huge gray area best to be avoided but I don’t think I can avoid it. I’ve read about people using Lp primers in 44 magnum but not about using magnum in 10 mm. I wonder about safety of course and how much to load down for an experiment. And not to worry I will not hold anybody responsible for my idiocy. Thanks all input appreciated.

October 10, 2021, 10:44 PM	#7
Mandoair Junior Member Join Date: March 5, 2021 Location: Kenai Alaska Posts: 8	Thanks I am encouraged to go ahead with some loads for the 10m with cci 350 primers and AA# 9 It Is the slowest I have. Maybe try AA #5 because I have more of it after my little #9 runs out. I did find some load data for cci 350’s and #9. Last edited by Mandoair; October 10, 2021 at 11:17 PM. Reason: Add

October 11, 2021, 11:43 AM	#9
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,966	Actually, with 357 mag and AA#9 magnum primers are recommended. It supposedly one of the harder to ignite ball powders along with others. I tired AA #7 in 9mm and found it was too slow for my 4in barrel. I tested for 7.8gr up to 8.6g in 0.2g increments with 115g fmj. there was no velocity increase after 8.0g. I need to re-test with the 124s I'm currently using, might get a better burn with the heavier bullets and lighter charge. depending on barrel length, bullet weight, and charge weight AA #9 might work well for you. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload. Last edited by Shadow9mm; October 11, 2021 at 11:54 AM.

October 12, 2021, 12:05 PM	#17
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	101combatvet, It can happen. Back around 2005 or so I called CCI and the lady who answered the phone back then before the big conglomerate bought them assured me that a lot of their employees bought the CCI 400 and used it both for rifle and magnum handgun loads. She even looked on their database and told me the cups were the same and anvils were the same and the amount of priming mix (same mix used in both) was the same. Just different box labels. Since then, the formulations have changed a little. If you call CCI today, they will tell you they are not the same and not to interchange them. The test Shadow9mm refers to is this one. But that's in a pistol cartridge. In another video, the CCI rifle and magnum pistol primers are interchanged in a rifle, and the rifle primers produce more velocity. In this video a rifle starts making loose primer pockets when the primer brand and type is changed. A couple of comments related to the thread in general are in order: According to Allan Jones, who worked on this stuff for CCI at one time, primer compositions and formulations change more often than people realize and the changes are not announced. Naturally, the primer maker want to avoid making past recipes obsolete, so the performance change is generally not dramatic, but there can be a bit, which is why we set out loads back and work up with a primer change) and check to see if we have to adjust our powder charge to hit a given velocity. Pistols cartridges are not rifle cartridges. The powder space is small. One result is that more powerful primers can sometimes start unseating a bullet before the powder's pressure builds enough to do it, and this increases the powder's starting burn space. A magnum primer's primary function is to make a greater quantity of initiating gas than a standard primer does, and an ironic result that can sometimes be observed is a magnum primer can actually reduce velocity and pressure because of that effect. But is isn't guaranteed, so don't assume it will happen. Just assume you will have to reduce powder and work a load back up with a change in primer. Don't extrapolate from what happens with one brand to another. CCI 550 and 400 primers may be fine in the 9 mm, but I would not assume from that I can do the same with other brands. There are several tests of primer effect on muzzle velocity you can find online. Sometimes it is what you'd expect, and sometimes it isn't. So always back down and work up. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 12, 2021, 03:31 PM	#18
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	The greatest concern I have about this post is primers not in original packaging. The little trays that keep primers separated are there for safety reasons. I do not know how your unknown primers are packaged, but if.for example,they are in a small glass jar, it may become an exploding fragmentation grenade if you drop it.

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