Would YOU Open Carry??? - Page 8

dm1333 · August 22, 2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Seems like most people, even on gun boards, that say they would open carry would only do so in certain circumstances...such as hiking, camping, etc. If you feel so threatened just going to town that you need to carry openly to warn off predators then you might want to see someone about that.

Quote:

If you feel so threatened just going to town that you need to carry concealed then you might want to see someone about that.

What is the difference between what you said and how I modified your statement? I (my opinion only) think most of us who choose to open carry do it because it is more convenient. If people open carry only do so because they want to look like a bad ass or be intimidating why are there those goofy looking concealed carry badges all over the place? Are you telling me that somebody who carries concealed and flashes a badge like that isn't going for the same effect?

Playboypenguin · August 22, 2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

What is the difference between what you said and how I modified your statement? I (my opinion only) think most of us who choose to open carry do it because it is more convenient. If people open carry only do so because they want to look like a bad ass or be intimidating why are there those goofy looking concealed carry badges all over the place? Are you telling me that somebody who carries concealed and flashes a badge like that isn't going for the same effect?

There is a huge psychological difference. Carrying concealed is not a display. Carrying openly is chest thumping. It is being so afraid that you are spurred in preventative measures before a threat even presents itself.

dm1333 · August 22, 2008, 01:25 PM

How can you say that when I open carry it is chest thumping? You are making a sweeping judgement.

Playboypenguin · August 22, 2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

How can you say that when I open carry it is chest thumping? You are making a sweeping judgement.

No, my original post clarified the circumstances. I clearly stated there are times and circumstances where it is justified...but daily activity in a metropolitan area is generally not going to fall into that category.

the_pragmaticist · August 22, 2008, 01:34 PM

I suppose I just can't see why it's not applicable to daily routines. We're largely of the opinion that possession of weapons is a good thing in this community, so why should they be hidden? Frankly, I don't mind the fact that a visible weapon has a chance to prevent an altercation before it even happens. Is that really paranoia? I'd really rather the pistol do its job from the holster than in my hand.

There are of course arguments from both sides of the fence as to whether a visible weapon has a better chance of causing or preventing issues across the board. When I try to think like a criminal though, and ask myself if a citizen who is comfortably wearing a pistol would make a -good- target or a -bad- target, I invariably come to the conclusion that at least someone who doesn't appear to be armed might not be.

Playboypenguin · August 22, 2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

I suppose I just can't see why it's not applicable to daily routines. We're largely of the opinion that possession of weapons is a good thing in this community, so why should they be hidden?

The true belief is that it is good to "be prepared to deal with possible threats." The opinion is not that it is "good to carry a gun." There is a very important distinction there.

People who open carry when the situation does not warrant it are missing that distinction. They are taking themselves from the position of passive preparedness to aggressive posturing.

the_pragmaticist · August 22, 2008, 01:48 PM

Well I'm not about to strap a can of OC to a tactical thigh rig! I see your point to a degree, I just don't take it to the extreme that the people around me can't handle the presence of someone openly armed, or that it's some sort of chest thumping. I just really like the idea of presenting myself as a very poor choice for a victim. There are other ways to do that as well - how you carry yourself, how you dress, how alert you are, etc as well as other weapons to have including batons, spray, tasers, what have you. The long and the short of it is that I'm no more or less dangerous while armed when my shirt is under or over my holster. The only rationale I can see for covering up is that it makes some people uncomfortable to see a weapon without a blue suit under it and I think (a little selfishly perhaps) that they should reevaluate, not me.

dm1333 · August 22, 2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

No, my original post clarified the circumstances. I clearly stated there are times and circumstances where it is justified...but daily activity in a metropolitan area is generally not going to fall into that category.

OK. I still don't agree with you though. To me the only difference between open carry and concealed carry is whether you can see my gun or not. Chest thumping has nothing to do with my choice on how to carry, and sometimes neither does the weather, my choice of clothing, activity, etc. Sometimes I just do it and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you saw my 12 year old truck, 20 year old motorcycle, 10 year old road bike, 9 year old mountain bike, etc. you would know that I am not a "show off".

Desertscout1 · August 22, 2008, 02:32 PM

I have posted this before on this site but I suppose I could post it again FWIW.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is not a shred of evidence or a case in the U.S. that anyone has ever been able to come up with that any credence whatsoever to the ASSumption that open-carry makes you a target. Out here in the west, there are thousands of us that carry openly everyday and I'm one of them. Why do I carry openly? Here's why...

There are a select few states that allow it's citizens to carry their weapons out in the open without asking permission from their government but there is a FEWER select few citizens that choose to exercise that right for fear of hurting someone's feelings.

There are quite a few establishments nowadays that choose to post signs that prohibit the carry of firearms, openly or concealed, within their walls. This is another of the many things that gives me deep and lasting indigestion. If you don't want to be robbed or have a disgruntled employee take out his frustration on your patrons, why do you create such a "hazard-free environment" for those that might perpetrate such a crime? Do you seriously think that a guy intent on robbing your store, or worse, is going to walk up to your door, see your "No Guns" sign and say, "Darn!, I sooooooo wanted to rob this place but the sign says I can't bring my gun in so I guess I'll just have to go somewhere else."? No, by posting that sign, you have pretty much assured the criminal that there is little, if any, chance that he will be confronted. When trained, credible, responsible citizens carry their weapons in your store and give you their business, you should be grateful that, at least for the time that they are present, your business is protected. At least from violent crime. Most of us will not shoot someone for stealing money as it is replaceable and probably insured. However, I have never met a legitimate gun-toter that would not intervene if someone were to threaten innocents or start shooting.

I think that many post those signs because of fear of the image that some of the patrons might get, not for liability reasons.

It is my opinion that if those who do carry regularly WOULD carry openly more often, it would help to de-sensitize those whom some people are afraid they are going to offend. Well, it offends ME when someone is offended by my carrying (which is RARELY an issue here in NM). I have my rights just like they have theirs. They have the right to get up and go eat somewhere else if they happen to come into a restaurant where I am eating. They have the right to run home screaming if they see me walking down the street and I am armed. I, on the other hand, have the right to do anything that they can do and their being there doesn't affect me one way or the other. The reason that gun rights are in the shape that they are in is because we gunowners continuously pander to "them" and try to compromise to a point that is OK with "them". We walk around and hide what we do or give certain rights away to retain others. That's not freedom to me.

I don't "flaunt" it as some have said. I think that if one is going to carry openly that they should dress neatly and wear your gear professionally and conservatively. I don't think that it's necessarily appropriate to wear a 7.5" Super Blackhawk downtown in cheap nylon Wal-Mart holster. Yes, occasionally when I come in from hunting or something and I'm carrying a .44, I may stop to get a Coke or gas or something but I'm not gonna take my gun off just because someone else may not approve of it but what I wear daily is a Glock 23 in a Blade Tech belt holster with my shirt tail tucked in. I dress neatly and there is nothing threatening about my appearance (unless you feel threatened by someone that 6"4", 250 pounds and wearing a gun ). Once in a while, I get a question or two but I have yet to experience the fear and panic that some claim is going to happen.

Occasionally, someone tells me how much that they value the 2nd amendment. Well, so do I...as it was written. Not as they would have me to accept it. Having said all that, I do believe that there are a very few places where it may not be appropriate to wear openly like church or some business meetings or picking the kids up at the Boys and Girls Club. In those few places, I do carry but it is concealed. If it's an impromptu occasion, I simply untuck my shirt and let it cover the gun. If it's planned, like church, I wear a Glock 27 in a Blade Tech IWB and a jacket or vest.

I don't "flaunt" it, make a big deal out of it or handle it in any manner when in public and I have NEVER had any problem.

I WILL NOT CRAWL AROUND AND EXERCISE MY GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS ONLY WHEN IT IS ACCEPTABLE WITH SOMEONE ELSE OR WHERE THEY CANNOT SEE!

There are those who will not stand up for a passing flag unless a few people around them do. Well I am the one around them that is usually first to stand. I could care less what everyone around me does. I have a man to face every day in the mirror and someone else to face when I leave this world. I plan to be able to walk uprightly before Him and say that I have done the best I could to uphold and exercise the rights and freedoms that I was blessed with at my birth.

"All those in favor of losing their rights, please do nothing!"

dm1333 · August 22, 2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

It is my opinion that if those who do carry regularly WOULD carry openly more often, it would help to de-sensitize those whom some people are afraid they are going to offend.

I can personally vouch for this being effective. A woman who works at my apartment nearly dropped a box that the office was holding for me after I told her it was ammunition, not the weight set she was joking about. She also confessed to me that she was deathly afraid of guns. After a year of me coming in to pick up ammunition, carrying guns in and out of the building on my way to shoot or hunt, and carrying openly at times she has become very accustomed to me having guns. Now our gun conversations revolve around matches that I have entered, hunting seasons and the status of all my project guns. Had I hidden all evidence of my gun ownership this never would have happened.

JesseL · August 22, 2008, 03:07 PM

Everyone who conceals their firearm is either ashamed of themselves for feeling the need to carry a weapon and wants to give the public impression that they're tough enough not to need a gun, or they're secretly hoping to be attacked so that they'll have the opportunity to gun someone down.

Everyone who drives a sports car, luxury car, large truck, or SUV is trying to compensate for their lack of genital endowment.

Every woman who wears a short skirt and heels is a promiscuous tramp.

Everyone with a tattoo is either a lowlife or a sailor.

Everyone who rides a Harley is probably in an outlaw motorcycle gang.

Everyone with a Grateful Dead sticker on their vehicle is a hippie communist pot smoker.

Every homosexual is a child predator waiting to pounce.

...ad nauseum.

Nobody here knows the mind and motivations of anyone else based simply on when and where they choose not to conceal their sidearm. If you're sure that you do, you're wrong. Claiming to know someone better than they know themselves (especially based on internet postings) is arrogant, stupid, and offensive.

Playboypenguin · August 22, 2008, 03:12 PM

Congrats, you when the award for most baseless load of crap with that last post. The level of disconnect and false association in the post is astounding. Bravo.

Desertscout1,

A great deal of your post could been more easily summed up by wrapping yourself in a flag and thumping your chest while hooting.

What is the desired result of open carry? What is the benefit of it? Why would we even want to live in a community where people would feel the need or desire to open carry regularly?

JesseL · August 22, 2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playboypenguin

Congrats, you when the award for most baseless load of crap with that last post. The level of disconnect and false association in the post is astounding. Bravo.

If you think making snap judgments about why people do what they do based on small samples of superficial data is okay for open carriers, why shouldn't you do the same for anyone else? Why shouldn't anyone do it to you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playboypenguin

What is the desired result of open carry? What is the benefit of it? Why would we even want to live in a community where people would feel the need or desire to open carry regularly?

I can only speak for myself, but the desired result for me is to be armed in case of emergency.

The benefit is that I'm not at the mercy of anyone who threatens me or my family with violence.

I don't feel the need to open carry regularly, every evening I'm glad that there was yet again no need for my pistol.

Pretty much the same as why any citizen might carry a sidearm concealed.

You might ask, why would I choose not to conceal my pistol? Comfort is the big reason. I don't like having the grip chafing against my side and I don't like tiny guns. Other (much less significant) reasons include ease of draw, deterrence, and the fact that I don't want to lose my right to carry unconcealed.

There is no discernible social stigma associated with open carrying here, so why should I conceal?

Playboypenguin · August 22, 2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

I can only speak for myself, but the desired result for me is to be armed in case of emergency.

The benefit is that I'm not at the mercy of anyone who threatens me or my family with violence.

And CC does not accomplish this?

Quote:

Comfort is the big reason.

That is the single reason that I actually agree with when discussing open carry. If someone starts their response, when asked why they support open carry, with "it is so much more comfortable and easier" I can actually relate to them. If they start off thumping their chest and quoting the constitution while humming the battle hymn of the republic in their head I have heard enough before they even start.

the_pragmaticist · August 22, 2008, 03:38 PM

PBP - I think JesseL was being facetious / sarcastic and does not actually feel that way, though I could be wrong. I understood his post to be comparing your suggestion that everyone who carries openly being a chest thumper to some of his more extreme examples of assumption. I could be wrong.

From my point of view, here are some possible (though not inclusive) answers to your questions:

What is the desired result of open carry?

Preclusion of violence by demonstrating that the carrier is a hard target. Not necessarily a badass, not necessarily a braggard, but most definitely not a good target for crime.

What is the benefit of it?

One would hope that one benefit would be the above desired result. In addition to that, it quietly introduces everyone who notices it to the concept of an armed citizen. Let me emphasize that in my case at least, this is not the desired result or the purpose - it's just a benefit.

Why would we even want to live in a community where people would feel the need or desire to open carry regularly?

Why wouldn't you? How many old ladies would get mugged in the street if everyone in the area was armed? How many criminals would hold up stores or banks or <insert place of business> if the half of the customers were clearly armed? The answer probably isn't zero, but it's probably less than the existing number...

I am a big fan of deterrence. All other rationale and facts aside, if you want an honest answer, I'll tell you: I'm concerned that in a conflict, firearm and all, I will fail. I've got training and tools on my side, but there's always a chance that someone beats me to the punch. If that makes me less of a man, so be it. At the end of the day, I'd rather someone see an armed citizen and walk away than force my hand to see who's going to win in armed conflict when they weren't aware of the firearm.

CzCasull · August 22, 2008, 03:39 PM

I'm in the USA, of course I'd open carry

though, of course it's always good to conceal..

tedwhite · August 22, 2008, 03:54 PM

I just read your very thoughtful and well-reasoned post, and I pretty much agree with everything you said. When I posted earlier I made the mistake of implying that everyone who open carried was simply a show off. Obviously that's not the case at all, and I apologize for not thinking before writing.

I'm assuming that's your gun shop there in Farmington. I've actually visited there for a look around not so long ago on my way back to AZ. Nice store. And yes, I did notice that in your neck of the woods lots of folks OC. Oddly, not so much OC down here on the border where there are huge amounts of crime (primarily illegals crossing the border and being led by very unsavory coyotes and endless drug smuggling), but lots of CC. A gun shop opened here recently and its presence has contributed to the issuance of over 200 CCW permits in the this area during the last year. And no doubt to lots of new gun owners.

OC around here is mostly done by ranchers and others who live in remote areas hours from any law enforcement assistance.

Yellowfin · August 22, 2008, 04:06 PM

Something I don't think I've seen brought up yet but I could have merely missed it: revolvers, 4 or 6 inchers. Some people handle and shoot those more effectively than they would a more concealable sidearm, so OC is the way to go for them. I for one think they should be able to carry what they're most effective in using, and OC is pretty much it unless you've got a jacket on which simply isn't fitting for the weather or occasion a lot of the time in a lot of places.

Oh wait, there's no way for the skeptics to have a smartass comeback about chest beating Rambos, easy targets, etc. so that's why it wasn't mentioned...

As for myself, well, business attire is expected for my job so OC is definitely in my future, likely everywhere and every day as much as half the time when I move back to the free world. I like the secondary bonus of advocacy, but main purpose is not looking like a slob with my shirt untucked or needing something small in a shoulder holster and my jacket on the whole day--in July that just ain't cutting it.

mvpel · August 22, 2008, 04:18 PM

Regardless of how many insults certain folks can sling on this thread, the simple fact is that as firearms freedom expands across the country as a result of the Heller decision, it will expand principally in the area of open carry.

The Heller case makes this fact quite clear:

Quote:

Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. ...

... Aymette held that the state constitutional guarantee of the right to “bear” arms did not prohibit the banning of concealed weapons. ...

... In Nunn v. State, the Georgia Supreme Court struck down a prohibition
on carrying pistols openly (even though it upheld a prohibition on carrying concealed weapons). ...

So for those of you who can't seem to refrain from gravely insulting fellow gun owners who choose a different mode of carry than the one which you prefer, you're going to have a lot more people to insult as more and more gun laws are struck down across the country.

Wildalaska · August 22, 2008, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Preclusion of violence by demonstrating that the carrier is a hard target. Not necessarily a badass, not necessarily a braggard, but most definitely not a good target for crime.

Dunno, if I was a criminal in pre rob mode standing at the register in the line next to Mr Right to Bear Arms, I'd probably pop him first

WildstealthmodeAlaska ™

Playboypenguin · August 22, 2008, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Dunno, if I was a criminal in pre rob mode standing at the register in the line next to Mr Right to Bear Arms, I'd probably pop him first

And if I had no respect for the law and had been perpetrating my crimes with knives and clubs up until this point I might even target him as a means to increase my proficiency.

JesseL · August 22, 2008, 05:35 PM

Funny that those hypothetical situations never actually happen.

It seems to me that if someone is going to rob a place where an open carrier is shopping, odds are high that the criminal will never even notice the guy with the gun. If the criminal does notice the guy with the gun there's a good chance he'll just decide to come back later or try a different store.

The vast majority of the public doesn't ever notice an openly carried pistol. Throw in the adrenaline and target fixation that a robber is likely dealing with, and he'd probably never notice if you had two heads let alone a holstered pistol.

Playboypenguin · August 22, 2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Funny that those hypothetical situations never actually happen.

Are you saying noone has ever been targeted for their firearm? Either through theft or mugging? I can tell you from personal experience it happens in the gang world quite often. If someone displays their firearm on the street they risk making themselves a target.

My cousin-n-law used to be a prominent gang member and he knows better. He has said that the smart guys hide their guns. The guy you do not see a gun on is the one to watch the closest.

noelf2 · August 22, 2008, 05:47 PM

bunch of crap. that's the sort of things the hidden holster salesman at the guns shows say. bad guy would probably think mr. right to bear arms was a cop and would steer clear, not pop him first. all speculation. i open carry, and i hate capital letters.

Playboypenguin · August 22, 2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

i Open Carry, And I Hate Capital Letters.

We Can Tell.

View Poll Results: Would or Do you Open Carry in Public?
Yes	174	41.93%
No	114	27.47%
It depends	127	30.60%
Voters: 415. You may not vote on this poll

August 22, 2008, 02:32 PM	#184
Desertscout1 Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: NM Posts: 421	I have posted this before on this site but I suppose I could post it again FWIW. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There is not a shred of evidence or a case in the U.S. that anyone has ever been able to come up with that any credence whatsoever to the ASSumption that open-carry makes you a target. Out here in the west, there are thousands of us that carry openly everyday and I'm one of them. Why do I carry openly? Here's why... There are a select few states that allow it's citizens to carry their weapons out in the open without asking permission from their government but there is a FEWER select few citizens that choose to exercise that right for fear of hurting someone's feelings. There are quite a few establishments nowadays that choose to post signs that prohibit the carry of firearms, openly or concealed, within their walls. This is another of the many things that gives me deep and lasting indigestion. If you don't want to be robbed or have a disgruntled employee take out his frustration on your patrons, why do you create such a "hazard-free environment" for those that might perpetrate such a crime? Do you seriously think that a guy intent on robbing your store, or worse, is going to walk up to your door, see your "No Guns" sign and say, "Darn!, I sooooooo wanted to rob this place but the sign says I can't bring my gun in so I guess I'll just have to go somewhere else."? No, by posting that sign, you have pretty much assured the criminal that there is little, if any, chance that he will be confronted. When trained, credible, responsible citizens carry their weapons in your store and give you their business, you should be grateful that, at least for the time that they are present, your business is protected. At least from violent crime. Most of us will not shoot someone for stealing money as it is replaceable and probably insured. However, I have never met a legitimate gun-toter that would not intervene if someone were to threaten innocents or start shooting. I think that many post those signs because of fear of the image that some of the patrons might get, not for liability reasons. It is my opinion that if those who do carry regularly WOULD carry openly more often, it would help to de-sensitize those whom some people are afraid they are going to offend. Well, it offends ME when someone is offended by my carrying (which is RARELY an issue here in NM). I have my rights just like they have theirs. They have the right to get up and go eat somewhere else if they happen to come into a restaurant where I am eating. They have the right to run home screaming if they see me walking down the street and I am armed. I, on the other hand, have the right to do anything that they can do and their being there doesn't affect me one way or the other. The reason that gun rights are in the shape that they are in is because we gunowners continuously pander to "them" and try to compromise to a point that is OK with "them". We walk around and hide what we do or give certain rights away to retain others. That's not freedom to me. I don't "flaunt" it as some have said. I think that if one is going to carry openly that they should dress neatly and wear your gear professionally and conservatively. I don't think that it's necessarily appropriate to wear a 7.5" Super Blackhawk downtown in cheap nylon Wal-Mart holster. Yes, occasionally when I come in from hunting or something and I'm carrying a .44, I may stop to get a Coke or gas or something but I'm not gonna take my gun off just because someone else may not approve of it but what I wear daily is a Glock 23 in a Blade Tech belt holster with my shirt tail tucked in. I dress neatly and there is nothing threatening about my appearance (unless you feel threatened by someone that 6"4", 250 pounds and wearing a gun ). Once in a while, I get a question or two but I have yet to experience the fear and panic that some claim is going to happen. Occasionally, someone tells me how much that they value the 2nd amendment. Well, so do I...as it was written. Not as they would have me to accept it. Having said all that, I do believe that there are a very few places where it may not be appropriate to wear openly like church or some business meetings or picking the kids up at the Boys and Girls Club. In those few places, I do carry but it is concealed. If it's an impromptu occasion, I simply untuck my shirt and let it cover the gun. If it's planned, like church, I wear a Glock 27 in a Blade Tech IWB and a jacket or vest. I don't "flaunt" it, make a big deal out of it or handle it in any manner when in public and I have NEVER had any problem. I WILL NOT CRAWL AROUND AND EXERCISE MY GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS ONLY WHEN IT IS ACCEPTABLE WITH SOMEONE ELSE OR WHERE THEY CANNOT SEE! There are those who will not stand up for a passing flag unless a few people around them do. Well I am the one around them that is usually first to stand. I could care less what everyone around me does. I have a man to face every day in the mirror and someone else to face when I leave this world. I plan to be able to walk uprightly before Him and say that I have done the best I could to uphold and exercise the rights and freedoms that I was blessed with at my birth. "All those in favor of losing their rights, please do nothing!" __________________ Desertscout Southwest Shooting Authority Colts and Kimbers are what you show your friends. Glocks are what you show your enemies.

August 22, 2008, 03:12 PM	#187
Playboypenguin Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 11,515	JesseL Congrats, you when the award for most baseless load of crap with that last post. The level of disconnect and false association in the post is astounding. Bravo. Desertscout1, A great deal of your post could been more easily summed up by wrapping yourself in a flag and thumping your chest while hooting. What is the desired result of open carry? What is the benefit of it? Why would we even want to live in a community where people would feel the need or desire to open carry regularly?

August 22, 2008, 03:54 PM	#192
tedwhite Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2008 Location: Bisbee, Arizona Posts: 122	desertcout1 I just read your very thoughtful and well-reasoned post, and I pretty much agree with everything you said. When I posted earlier I made the mistake of implying that everyone who open carried was simply a show off. Obviously that's not the case at all, and I apologize for not thinking before writing. I'm assuming that's your gun shop there in Farmington. I've actually visited there for a look around not so long ago on my way back to AZ. Nice store. And yes, I did notice that in your neck of the woods lots of folks OC. Oddly, not so much OC down here on the border where there are huge amounts of crime (primarily illegals crossing the border and being led by very unsavory coyotes and endless drug smuggling), but lots of CC. A gun shop opened here recently and its presence has contributed to the issuance of over 200 CCW permits in the this area during the last year. And no doubt to lots of new gun owners. OC around here is mostly done by ranchers and others who live in remote areas hours from any law enforcement assistance.

August 22, 2008, 04:06 PM	#193
Yellowfin Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2007 Location: Lancaster Co, PA Posts: 2,311	Something I don't think I've seen brought up yet but I could have merely missed it: revolvers, 4 or 6 inchers. Some people handle and shoot those more effectively than they would a more concealable sidearm, so OC is the way to go for them. I for one think they should be able to carry what they're most effective in using, and OC is pretty much it unless you've got a jacket on which simply isn't fitting for the weather or occasion a lot of the time in a lot of places. Oh wait, there's no way for the skeptics to have a smartass comeback about chest beating Rambos, easy targets, etc. so that's why it wasn't mentioned... As for myself, well, business attire is expected for my job so OC is definitely in my future, likely everywhere and every day as much as half the time when I move back to the free world. I like the secondary bonus of advocacy, but main purpose is not looking like a slob with my shirt untucked or needing something small in a shoulder holster and my jacket on the whole day--in July that just ain't cutting it. __________________ Students for Concealed Carry on Campus http://www.concealedcampus.org "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" - Penn Jillette Last edited by Yellowfin; August 22, 2008 at 05:15 PM.

August 22, 2008, 01:25 PM	#178
dm1333 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2005 Posts: 401	How can you say that when I open carry it is chest thumping? You are making a sweeping judgement.

August 22, 2008, 01:34 PM	#180
the_pragmaticist Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2008 Posts: 201	I suppose I just can't see why it's not applicable to daily routines. We're largely of the opinion that possession of weapons is a good thing in this community, so why should they be hidden? Frankly, I don't mind the fact that a visible weapon has a chance to prevent an altercation before it even happens. Is that really paranoia? I'd really rather the pistol do its job from the holster than in my hand. There are of course arguments from both sides of the fence as to whether a visible weapon has a better chance of causing or preventing issues across the board. When I try to think like a criminal though, and ask myself if a citizen who is comfortably wearing a pistol would make a -good- target or a -bad- target, I invariably come to the conclusion that at least someone who doesn't appear to be armed might not be.

August 22, 2008, 01:48 PM	#182
the_pragmaticist Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2008 Posts: 201	Well I'm not about to strap a can of OC to a tactical thigh rig! I see your point to a degree, I just don't take it to the extreme that the people around me can't handle the presence of someone openly armed, or that it's some sort of chest thumping. I just really like the idea of presenting myself as a very poor choice for a victim. There are other ways to do that as well - how you carry yourself, how you dress, how alert you are, etc as well as other weapons to have including batons, spray, tasers, what have you. The long and the short of it is that I'm no more or less dangerous while armed when my shirt is under or over my holster. The only rationale I can see for covering up is that it makes some people uncomfortable to see a weapon without a blue suit under it and I think (a little selfishly perhaps) that they should reevaluate, not me.

August 22, 2008, 03:07 PM	#186
JesseL Member Join Date: May 22, 2006 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 17	Everyone who conceals their firearm is either ashamed of themselves for feeling the need to carry a weapon and wants to give the public impression that they're tough enough not to need a gun, or they're secretly hoping to be attacked so that they'll have the opportunity to gun someone down. Everyone who drives a sports car, luxury car, large truck, or SUV is trying to compensate for their lack of genital endowment. Every woman who wears a short skirt and heels is a promiscuous tramp. Everyone with a tattoo is either a lowlife or a sailor. Everyone who rides a Harley is probably in an outlaw motorcycle gang. Everyone with a Grateful Dead sticker on their vehicle is a hippie communist pot smoker. Every homosexual is a child predator waiting to pounce. ...ad nauseum. Nobody here knows the mind and motivations of anyone else based simply on when and where they choose not to conceal their sidearm. If you're sure that you do, you're wrong. Claiming to know someone better than they know themselves (especially based on internet postings) is arrogant, stupid, and offensive.

August 22, 2008, 03:38 PM	#190
the_pragmaticist Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2008 Posts: 201	PBP - I think JesseL was being facetious / sarcastic and does not actually feel that way, though I could be wrong. I understood his post to be comparing your suggestion that everyone who carries openly being a chest thumper to some of his more extreme examples of assumption. I could be wrong. From my point of view, here are some possible (though not inclusive) answers to your questions: What is the desired result of open carry? Preclusion of violence by demonstrating that the carrier is a hard target. Not necessarily a badass, not necessarily a braggard, but most definitely not a good target for crime. What is the benefit of it? One would hope that one benefit would be the above desired result. In addition to that, it quietly introduces everyone who notices it to the concept of an armed citizen. Let me emphasize that in my case at least, this is not the desired result or the purpose - it's just a benefit. Why would we even want to live in a community where people would feel the need or desire to open carry regularly? Why wouldn't you? How many old ladies would get mugged in the street if everyone in the area was armed? How many criminals would hold up stores or banks or <insert place of business> if the half of the customers were clearly armed? The answer probably isn't zero, but it's probably less than the existing number... I am a big fan of deterrence. All other rationale and facts aside, if you want an honest answer, I'll tell you: I'm concerned that in a conflict, firearm and all, I will fail. I've got training and tools on my side, but there's always a chance that someone beats me to the punch. If that makes me less of a man, so be it. At the end of the day, I'd rather someone see an armed citizen and walk away than force my hand to see who's going to win in armed conflict when they weren't aware of the firearm.

August 22, 2008, 03:39 PM	#191
CzCasull Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2008 Posts: 414	I'm in the USA, of course I'd open carry though, of course it's always good to conceal..

August 22, 2008, 05:35 PM	#197
JesseL Member Join Date: May 22, 2006 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 17	Funny that those hypothetical situations never actually happen. It seems to me that if someone is going to rob a place where an open carrier is shopping, odds are high that the criminal will never even notice the guy with the gun. If the criminal does notice the guy with the gun there's a good chance he'll just decide to come back later or try a different store. The vast majority of the public doesn't ever notice an openly carried pistol. Throw in the adrenaline and target fixation that a robber is likely dealing with, and he'd probably never notice if you had two heads let alone a holstered pistol.

August 22, 2008, 05:47 PM	#199
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	bunch of crap. that's the sort of things the hidden holster salesman at the guns shows say. bad guy would probably think mr. right to bear arms was a cop and would steer clear, not pop him first. all speculation. i open carry, and i hate capital letters.