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Old October 18, 2017, 09:56 AM   #76
Nanuk
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It is all made irrelevant by the professional, brutal predator who only telegraphs his intent when he strikes from ambush. The Tueller drill is a decent training tool, but if you know what is coming what benefit are you getting from it? Keep it in the context that it was originally developed for, giving you an articulable basis for action with a displayed weapon.

A lot of LE training is designed around the need to be able to articulate why you did this or that in response to a given stimulus.
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Old October 18, 2017, 10:48 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
It is all made irrelevant by the professional, brutal predator who only telegraphs his intent when he strikes from ambush. The Tueller drill is a decent training tool, but if you know what is coming what benefit are you getting from it? Keep it in the context that it was originally developed for, giving you an articulable basis for action with a displayed weapon.

A lot of LE training is designed around the need to be able to articulate why you did this or that in response to a given stimulus.
Well you can't go around with your pistol drawn and pointing at everyone. It tends to be frowned upon in polite society.
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Old October 18, 2017, 01:45 PM   #78
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Less attention on how a "drill" can be configured to fool people in a training environment ...

... and perhaps more thought to how we might be less susceptible to being caught by surprise to the extent that we may never recover enough to catch up in identifying the nature of our attacker, and the actual manner & extent of the "threat", and where our "attacker" is in his own OODA Loop.

It's not just "draw speed" that matters (and it's actually a much less important criteria outside the classroom, and off the gaming range, than some folks might like to think).

Our first "reaction" is being sufficiently aware to be able to Observe & Orient, and then our training (including both knowledge and skillset) can help with the Decide part of things ... and then the circumstances involved, and our sustained skillset development, might help with the Act.

It's not just a matter of 'slapping leather' (or plastic), even though many folks who own shot timers might like to lean that way.

The speed at which someone can "cock" and prepare to initiate a punch, and the speed of the punch, itself, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be effective.

Gear possession is good. Familiarity and the ability to use the gear is better. Relying solely on the gear an using it, under optimal training and practice conditions, is perhaps less of a "predictor" of potential successful application than we might wish ... even if it makes us feel good about ourselves and having the gear.

Big picture, folks.
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Old October 18, 2017, 06:01 PM   #79
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Ranger Rich,

That was a very interesting video. Thanks for sharing. I think the first part was pretty implausible. He knew an attacker was running up on him from behind and was prepared to react as soon as he heard a noise. In the real world, it could just be a jogger running in your direction. You have to really assess the situation before you draw a gun and shoot someone. On the flip side, failure to react could quickly could mean you attacker would be on top of you before you could get a weapon out. The whole draw and shoot behind your back is pure fantasy for 99% of us.

Real world requires assessment time, especially if the noise is coming from behind. Based on the time to turn and draw, even a highly trained person (as shown in the video) would have a very hard time to draw from concealment and bring the gun into play. Even when he did, the momentum of the attacker could still mean he gets cut or stabbed. This is where having some martial arts training could give you some options. If the attacker has a short contact weapon like a knife, a well placed kick could stop him or slow him down enough to get a gun into play. I'm not saying I want to go hand to hand against someone with a knife, but it has already been shown that assessing, reacting, then drawing from concealment is darn near impossible. If all you have is a hammer, you're only looking for nails.

As for the drop to your back or the roll, I really like how it creates space and forces a change of direction for the attacker. We had better practice the roll extensively if we hope to have a chance in hell of pulling it off in a real attack.
Actually what we learned in that class was that we had to get off the X immediately. Kicking a charging attacker in the gut/chest/head looks great on TV or in the movies, but in real life it's pretty hard to do. Also, it really doesn't work well against attackers that are significantly larger than yourself. Simply put, their momentum magnifies a person's size/weight advantage, so a 150 lb. man collides with you with the energy of much larger man if he's running 10-15 mph at you. So even if you get a good kick in, their momentum might carry them through/on top of you anyway.

Anyway, the most important thing I/we learned was to get off the X quickly, though not necessarily immediately. That might give them time to adjust their line of attack and you're back where you started so to speak. But dropping back, rolling, even spinning or a headshake to one side-lunge the other way could create enough distance to either go for your gun/knife or even escape.

Another important lesson I learned from the exercise was that even in a drill situation, reacting quickly to a perceived attack is very difficult. The time lag between seeing a potential threat (odd-looking guy over there) to understanding that you are being attacked (guy charges at you drawing a knife/club/gun) and must defend yourself is longer than most people might imagine. Add in the time it takes to draw, and . . .

However, the Tueller drill as I understand it is supposed to only give us a baseline for minimum distance/time reaction to an attack. For myself, now that I'm almost 50, I find 21 ft. cutting it pretty darn fine.
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Old Yesterday, 11:21 AM   #80
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Rangerrich99,

I am in agreement with pretty much everything you said, but waiting to "get off the X" is also dangerous since you do not know your attackers reflexes or agility. While I am no longer in my prime, I trained for years in Tae Kwon Do and am a first degree black belt. That was my basis for saying anyone who is physically capable should learn some form of self defense.

A well placed powerful side kick or turning back kick will take most people off their feet, especially when combined with the additional momentum from the attacker. Legs are longer and more powerful than arm, giving you a reach advantage. Also with a well executed side kick, you lean away from the kick to counter balance, putting your torso away from the contact weapon. Martial arts is just another tool in the bag that gives you additional options. Just like shooting, it is a skill that needs to be practiced and constantly honed.

I just want to be clear that I am not saying it is a great idea to go hand to hand against an armed attacker. It may be the fastest option that buys you time to get your weapon into play. If you're not physically capable or willing to put in the time and energy to become competent with martial arts, stick with your strongest skills.
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM   #81
Bartholomew Roberts
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The time lag between seeing a potential threat (odd-looking guy over there) to understanding that you are being attacked (guy charges at you drawing a knife/club/gun) and must defend yourself is longer than most people might imagine. Add in the time it takes to draw, and . . .
Yes! This thread concentrates on the "A" of the OODA loop; but even if you are slothlike, that is what? Four seconds max? So, if by diligent preparation you become the next Jelly Bryce, you can cycle through your OODA loop 3.74 seconds faster after spending a lifetime perfecting your draw. Spend a few hours working on boring non-gun skills that help speed your observation, orientation and decision making and you'll save a lot more time than 4 seconds with less effort.
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Old Yesterday, 01:07 PM   #82
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...reacting quickly to a perceived attack is very difficult. The time lag between seeing a potential threat (odd-looking guy over there) to understanding that you are being attacked (guy charges at you drawing a knife/club/gun) and must defend yourself is longer than most people might imagine. Add in the time it takes to draw, and . . .
Perhaps this was implied, but there is also the time that elapses before "seeing a potential threat".

If one has not yet noticed that "odd looking guy over there" when he (and perhaps his accomplices) starts moving into position, that much more of the fuse has burned down,

No one has eyes in the back of one's head, and likely no one with the gift of sight will employ Braille in doing things to help keep the eyes focussed on threat detection.

One needs to know and notice as much as possible about what is going on in the general area.

Bart has it right: concentrating solely on that segment of the timeline measured by draw speed only addresses a small part of the self defense process.
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