Bullets from brass?

Marco Califo · February 19, 2013, 01:18 AM

I am sure some has thought of and maybe done this:
Can you melt brass, like a hand full of 9mm, and cast them into useable bullets with standard steel molds?

snuffy · February 19, 2013, 12:22 PM

NO!

First problem would be that yellow brass melts @ 1710 degrees F. IF you have access to some type of furnace capable of that temp, and well above, then possibly.

Now for the mold. I doubt even an iron or steel mold will withstand those kind of temps. Aluminum most certainly would not, neither would brass molds. The sprue would also be very difficult to cut.

Most brass casting is done in sand molds. They're not very accurate, and finishing would be a requirement.

Most important question is WHY?

alex0535 · February 19, 2013, 01:01 PM

You need a good forge, experience using the forge and the knowledge that comes with melting metals.

You would have more success taking the route of a using a lathe on some brass bar stock and turning bullets out of it.

It is possible to copper plate cast lead bullets. There might be some other way of doing it, but be warned that the method I know of doing it includes the use of a solvent such as acetone, sulfuric acid, and a bath of vinegar and cooper sulphate to run a very low voltage through. The idea is to electroplate lead with copper.

Don't attempt this if you do not know enough about safely working with volatile solvents, strong acids, or electricity. All the reactions are pretty slow, but there are just some people that should be discouraged from playing with battery acid.

FrankenMauser · February 19, 2013, 05:15 PM

The best use of cartridge brass for making other projectiles, is as a jacket for swaged bullets.

For handgun projectiles:
-.380 Auto and .223 Rem make great .35 and .38 caliber jackets
-9mm and 9mm Makarov make perfect .40 caliber and decent .41 caliber jackets
-.40 S&W makes great .44 caliber jackets and acceptable .45 caliber jackets
-.45 Auto makes decent .50 caliber jackets
-If you have a supply of fired copper or brass shotgun primers on hand (rare today), they make great .25 caliber jackets

For rifle projectiles:
-.22 (heeled) rimfire makes great .22 through .25 caliber varmint/target jackets
-.22/.17 magnum rimfire make great .24 through .26 caliber varmint/target jackets
-The coming release of .17 WSM will provide a source for good .27 caliber, possibly to .30 caliber, varmint/target jackets
-5.7x28mm FN makes fantastic .30 and .34 (.338) caliber jackets
-.223 Rem makes good .35 caliber, decent .38 caliber, and very tough .30-.34 caliber jackets
-9mm makes extremely tough .30 caliber jackets
-And the list goes on...

Many of those combinations (such as 9mm for .30 caliber jackets) require quite a few dies to draw the case down to the desired size, but some require very little equipment and monetary investment.

Turning 9mm into .40 caliber bullet, for example, can be done in a single operation. CH4D and "BT Sniper" make 'one step' dies that form a lead-core hollow point bullet with a single stroke of the press handle. (Also available for .40 S&W to .44 caliber bullet, or .40 S&W to .45 caliber bullet.)

And, there are some people out there (like myself

) that re-purpose other reloading tools to get the job done "the redneck way".
I swage soft point .44 caliber bullets from .40 S&W cases, using a 7x57mm Mauser sizing die and the bottom punch from a Lee bullet sizer.
You can see/read more here: Something new to play with
I use the bullets in several .44 Mag revolvers, as well as a .444 Marlin rifle.
Performance is equal to any other standard-construction jacketed bullet out there, if not better (the .40 S&W case provides a very tough base).
On page three of that thread, there are close-up images of one I recovered from the neck of an Elk.

Empty brass = bullet jackets

James K · February 19, 2013, 05:59 PM

IIRC, RCBS got their start making tools to form .22 caliber bullet jackets out of fired .22 LR cases, a fairly common practice in the post WWII period.

Jim

Boomer58cal · February 24, 2013, 07:07 PM

Funny. My Dad told me story of him and grandpa making .22 jackets out of rimfire cases and half jackets for 30-06 and 30-30's out of penny's(when they were copper)in WWII. They would put the penny's on a railroad track to flatten them.

jaguarxk120 · February 24, 2013, 07:24 PM

If you look back into the history of some of our loading tool manufacture's you will find that some started out as bullet swaging die makers. The one that come up front is RCBS (Rock Chuck Bullet Swage).

ronz · February 26, 2013, 09:41 PM

is it possible to start swagging for a reasonable amount of money
lets say somthing like 224 55g out of 22lr

Brian Pfleuger · February 26, 2013, 09:42 PM

$1500 would get you started... Maybe $1000

FrankenMauser · February 26, 2013, 11:56 PM

Dr. Blackmon's equipment is the cheapest to get started with, but there's a minimum 6+ month wait. You'd be into the gear about $750.

BT Sniper (castboolits forum) can get you started for about $875, with a 2-6 month wait (depending on what he has available and what has to be machined, when the order is placed).

Beyond those two options, the cost climbs quickly to $1,200+ for "basic" Corbin dies (RCE or Corbins), or $2,000+ for EDM cut dies (such as Detsch).

ronz · February 28, 2013, 11:42 AM

its definitely out of my price range
unless run across some at a flee market

FrankenMauser · February 28, 2013, 03:41 PM

Swaging dies and tools show up at estate sales, on occasion. That's about the only chance you've got at obtaining the stuff at a discount. However... it's likely to be for some oddball bullet, in an odd diameter. (Like a 250 gr semi-elliptical 'spitzer' with body diameter tapering from .329" to .325".)

The general 'used' market for swaging tools sees prices running only about 10-25% below original cost (maybe 40% for low quality items from manufacturers that are no longer in business).

dahermit · February 28, 2013, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Can you melt brass, like a hand full of 9mm, and cast them into useable bullets with standard steel molds?

Not likely. The steel mold may take the heat, but it would not be practical. The brass has too high of a melting temperature. You would have to wait a long time for the mold to cool before opening it.
Also, you would have to have some kind of crucible to get the brass hot enough to melt. No home casting outfit intended for lead alloys is ever going to get hot enough to do that; you would need something with a blower on it, fire clay, fire brick lined. The only reason we can use lead for casting is because of its low melting point and its high freezing point...they have to be fairly close to one another to be practical for steel/Iron/brass/aluminum mold casting.

February 19, 2013, 01:18 AM	#1
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Bullets from brass? I am sure some has thought of and maybe done this: Can you melt brass, like a hand full of 9mm, and cast them into useable bullets with standard steel molds? __________________ ............

February 19, 2013, 12:22 PM	#2
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	NO! First problem would be that yellow brass melts @ 1710 degrees F. IF you have access to some type of furnace capable of that temp, and well above, then possibly. Now for the mold. I doubt even an iron or steel mold will withstand those kind of temps. Aluminum most certainly would not, neither would brass molds. The sprue would also be very difficult to cut. Most brass casting is done in sand molds. They're not very accurate, and finishing would be a requirement. Most important question is WHY? __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

February 19, 2013, 01:01 PM	#3
alex0535 Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 908	You need a good forge, experience using the forge and the knowledge that comes with melting metals. You would have more success taking the route of a using a lathe on some brass bar stock and turning bullets out of it. It is possible to copper plate cast lead bullets. There might be some other way of doing it, but be warned that the method I know of doing it includes the use of a solvent such as acetone, sulfuric acid, and a bath of vinegar and cooper sulphate to run a very low voltage through. The idea is to electroplate lead with copper. Don't attempt this if you do not know enough about safely working with volatile solvents, strong acids, or electricity. All the reactions are pretty slow, but there are just some people that should be discouraged from playing with battery acid. Last edited by alex0535; February 19, 2013 at 01:24 PM.

February 19, 2013, 05:15 PM	#4
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	The best use of cartridge brass for making other projectiles, is as a jacket for swaged bullets. For handgun projectiles: -.380 Auto and .223 Rem make great .35 and .38 caliber jackets -9mm and 9mm Makarov make perfect .40 caliber and decent .41 caliber jackets -.40 S&W makes great .44 caliber jackets and acceptable .45 caliber jackets -.45 Auto makes decent .50 caliber jackets -If you have a supply of fired copper or brass shotgun primers on hand (rare today), they make great .25 caliber jackets For rifle projectiles: -.22 (heeled) rimfire makes great .22 through .25 caliber varmint/target jackets -.22/.17 magnum rimfire make great .24 through .26 caliber varmint/target jackets -The coming release of .17 WSM will provide a source for good .27 caliber, possibly to .30 caliber, varmint/target jackets -5.7x28mm FN makes fantastic .30 and .34 (.338) caliber jackets -.223 Rem makes good .35 caliber, decent .38 caliber, and very tough .30-.34 caliber jackets -9mm makes extremely tough .30 caliber jackets -And the list goes on... Many of those combinations (such as 9mm for .30 caliber jackets) require quite a few dies to draw the case down to the desired size, but some require very little equipment and monetary investment. Turning 9mm into .40 caliber bullet, for example, can be done in a single operation. CH4D and "BT Sniper" make 'one step' dies that form a lead-core hollow point bullet with a single stroke of the press handle. (Also available for .40 S&W to .44 caliber bullet, or .40 S&W to .45 caliber bullet.) And, there are some people out there (like myself ) that re-purpose other reloading tools to get the job done "the redneck way". I swage soft point .44 caliber bullets from .40 S&W cases, using a 7x57mm Mauser sizing die and the bottom punch from a Lee bullet sizer. You can see/read more here: Something new to play with I use the bullets in several .44 Mag revolvers, as well as a .444 Marlin rifle. Performance is equal to any other standard-construction jacketed bullet out there, if not better (the .40 S&W case provides a very tough base). On page three of that thread, there are close-up images of one I recovered from the neck of an Elk. Empty brass = bullet jackets __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 26, 2013, 09:42 PM	#9
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Bullets from brass? $1500 would get you started... Maybe $1000

February 19, 2013, 05:59 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	IIRC, RCBS got their start making tools to form .22 caliber bullet jackets out of fired .22 LR cases, a fairly common practice in the post WWII period. Jim

February 24, 2013, 07:07 PM	#6
Boomer58cal Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2013 Location: closer than you think Posts: 967	Funny. My Dad told me story of him and grandpa making .22 jackets out of rimfire cases and half jackets for 30-06 and 30-30's out of penny's(when they were copper)in WWII. They would put the penny's on a railroad track to flatten them.

February 24, 2013, 07:24 PM	#7
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,619	If you look back into the history of some of our loading tool manufacture's you will find that some started out as bullet swaging die makers. The one that come up front is RCBS (Rock Chuck Bullet Swage).

February 26, 2013, 09:41 PM	#8
ronz Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2012 Location: milwaukee wi Posts: 220	is it possible to start swagging for a reasonable amount of money lets say somthing like 224 55g out of 22lr

February 26, 2013, 11:56 PM	#10
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Dr. Blackmon's equipment is the cheapest to get started with, but there's a minimum 6+ month wait. You'd be into the gear about $750. BT Sniper (castboolits forum) can get you started for about $875, with a 2-6 month wait (depending on what he has available and what has to be machined, when the order is placed). Beyond those two options, the cost climbs quickly to $1,200+ for "basic" Corbin dies (RCE or Corbins), or $2,000+ for EDM cut dies (such as Detsch). __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 28, 2013, 11:42 AM	#11
ronz Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2012 Location: milwaukee wi Posts: 220	its definitely out of my price range unless run across some at a flee market

February 28, 2013, 03:41 PM	#12
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Swaging dies and tools show up at estate sales, on occasion. That's about the only chance you've got at obtaining the stuff at a discount. However... it's likely to be for some oddball bullet, in an odd diameter. (Like a 250 gr semi-elliptical 'spitzer' with body diameter tapering from .329" to .325".) The general 'used' market for swaging tools sees prices running only about 10-25% below original cost (maybe 40% for low quality items from manufacturers that are no longer in business). __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.