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June 17, 2014, 12:44 PM | #26 |
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So bottom line, you still CAN give a gift gun (using your money, not the recipient's money), or you canNOT do so? Or did this decision leave the answer to that question gray/unclear?
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June 17, 2014, 12:50 PM | #27 | ||
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As Tom Servo wrote:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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June 17, 2014, 12:54 PM | #28 |
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interesting discussion.
thankfully, it was a case centered around a statute, so if Congress wants to clean things up, it's a matter of passing a bill, not a matter of amending the Constitution. won't happen in the next 2 years, but it can be done. i suspect the ATF likes the uncertainty of what constitutes a straw (when was the check written, when did the parties decide what to do with the gun...), so if they want to make a case, they can do so. so.....who wants to give me a new gun? thanks for the PM Frank. |
June 17, 2014, 01:07 PM | #29 | |
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Quote:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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June 17, 2014, 01:08 PM | #30 |
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Thank you Frank, and Tom.
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June 17, 2014, 01:08 PM | #31 | |
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June 17, 2014, 01:31 PM | #32 |
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It has been mentioned that he had the uncle do a background check to receive the firearm. If so, the entire case hinges on when the check to Abrionski was written, not the final possessor of the firearm.
It sounds as though everything was done correctly as to the chain of possession; but he shouldn't have accepted the money for what would have qualified as a secondary sale in the absence of his accepting the check before he purchased the firearm. Purchasing a firearm for resale is not a violation as long as there is no pattern of doing so which would require a license.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
June 17, 2014, 01:39 PM | #33 | ||
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Quote:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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June 17, 2014, 01:41 PM | #34 | |
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June 17, 2014, 01:46 PM | #35 | |
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June 17, 2014, 01:47 PM | #36 | |||
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He wrote: But of course, it's not a question of when the principal gives the agent the money. It's a question of an agency relationship being formed ("you buy this gun for me, and I'll pay for it."). If that's the deal, it's a straw purchase whether the principal gives the agent the money ahead of time or the agent extends credit to the principal and collects when he transfers the gun to the principal.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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June 17, 2014, 01:52 PM | #37 | |
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Quote:
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I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
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June 17, 2014, 02:05 PM | #38 |
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If Abranski had purchased the firearm with his own money, and never received the check from the uncle, with the intention of selling the firearm in a secondary sale, regardless of to whom he sold it, the transaction would have been legal; would it have not?
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
June 17, 2014, 02:16 PM | #39 | |
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If he had intended to sell the gun but had not made prior arrangements with a "buyer" for the disposition of the gun, and thus assumed an entrepreneurial risk that he would be able to sell the gun on acceptable terms, and did not do that sort of thing with sufficient frequency to constitute being engaged in the business of a dealer in firearms without a license, and didn't know or have reason to believe that the transferee was a prohibited person, and if the transfer was done in accordance with applicable law, then the transaction would have been legal.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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June 18, 2014, 12:37 AM | #40 |
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A few aspects of the Abramski case are perplexing.
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June 18, 2014, 08:23 AM | #41 |
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Can we talk a bit about the dissenting opinion?
I'm no legal scholar, but to me, the clarifications in the instructions on the form 4473 are clear about who the actual purchaser is and who is not. During the trial(s) at the lower levels it can be argued (successfully or not) that the parties complied with the intent of the law, being that neither was a prohibited person. Maybe this was argued and maybe it wasn't, I don't know. And maybe a reasonable jury would've been allowed to find him not guilty. But once the case gets to the SCOTUS level, aren't we past that? Or can SCOTUS rule that the intent was followed even though it's clear on the 4473 what's allowed? If the law is clear (although a bit flawed), it is the law and SCOTUS is required to follow it unless it's been deemed unconstitutional...right? (Note: If I was on the jury at the lower level I'd have found him not guilty but I'm sure some judge would insist otherwise in his jury instructions.) |
June 18, 2014, 09:17 AM | #42 |
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I think they can find that sort of thing, but they won't/didn't. A final decision from the Supreme Court is pretty rare I think. Normally they rule on a point of law, and it goes back to the lower courts (or legislative body) to either continue, retry the case(rewrite the legislation), or drop it.
To the best of my layman's knowledge, the Supreme Court has only delivered a criminal court verdict once, and they tried the whole case as well. I know of it, but not as well as the people who study this stuff for a living. Some sort of homicide case a local CLEO (I think Sheriff but I'm not sure) and racial or labor union tensions. Edit to Add: Did some checking and found this page about the case I was talking about. The Shipp trial. Last edited by JimDandy; June 18, 2014 at 09:45 AM. |
June 18, 2014, 10:47 AM | #43 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
For a long time, the idea was that a straw purchase was one made on behalf of a disqualified individual. In 1992, they changed that [pdf] to include any purchase in which the person filling out the form was not the "actual buyer."
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June 20, 2014, 04:36 AM | #44 |
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The problem here was created by the fact that the "actual buyer" would not get a police discount if he actually bought his gun like a normal person.
I think uncle and nephew are wrong for fraudulently trying to confer a police benefit on a person who is not a cop. Last edited by Tom Servo; June 20, 2014 at 07:18 AM. |
June 21, 2014, 12:48 AM | #45 |
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Hadn't actually thought of it that way. It is a fraud.
If I did that where I work I would be fired as it is considered a fraud against my employer to use my discount for other than myself, wife, or children.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
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