SIG P365, is it ready?

[Fishbed77]

It has a good drop factor and SIG is a nice brand.

SIG may be a nice brand, but when considering a defensive pistol, I need a solid product, not a brand.

[davidsog]

My pockets are pocket sized. I found the 365 to be bigger and heavier than I prefer, since I primarily CCW IWB so I only want a pocket gun when I dont wear a belt, like in athletic shorts. So its gotta be small and light.

As for belt carry, a Glock 26 conceals perfectly in any outfit for me. There is no reason to go smaller, especially with a gun I shoot worse than said Glock.

I gave the Sig an honest chance, not for me.

No problem. Just seems weird because the P365 has smaller dimensions and is lighter than the Glock 26.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS2s9Dap6Z0

[davidsog]

That's a shame!

Poor guy. That is some real bad luck!

[PushPuller]

SIG may be a nice brand, but when considering a defensive pistol, I need a solid product, not a brand.

I can second this statement. I got a P238 because the rave amount of reviews, and it fit the bill for a good carry pistol for the fiancé or I. I haven't owned SIGs prior and feel like I may have fallen for the SIG fanboys praise a bit. Its been a headache at times, and it feels a little sloppier than the rest of my pistols. It does shoot very nice, and has a great trigger. Its a toy to keep, but not as a regular carry option for me, and definitely not the fiancé. But hey! I bought a nice brand at least.

[fl_rich]

I have a 365. July something 2018 is its made on date. Seems nice, just got a kydex holster for it. I have a Springfield XDS 45 that is my regular carry. Its been with me daily for almost four years. Its a good shooting gun and I'm comfortable with it. Had a hankering to buy something new. Went to the local gun show two Saturdays ago and saw the P360. I liked the ten +1 capacity and it's a whisker smaller and a scooch thinner. So I walked out with it (Yes I have a CCP and I had to pass the background test too- there is no gun show loophole)

I haven't had it to the range yet but I expect to send a few hundred rounds downrange this week. I like the sights, very bright small dots. I'll let you know how everything works out at the range. I'm expecting a smooth running compact pistol.

[davidsog]

SIG may be a nice brand, but when considering a defensive pistol, I need a solid product, not a brand.

Initially Glock renounced the issues with the firearm which surely lost them some lifetime customers. Finally they issued a recall which partially fixed the issues. While I am glad to see that Glock took responsibility for the problems, it does not excuse the poor design.

The sights are consistently the most criticized aspect of every Glock model.

If you drop your gun, there is a good chance your sights will be rendered worthless. In addition, these plastic sights can be worn down to a nub simply from the daily wear and tear of pulling it in and out of your holster. This is one of the biggest Glock 19 Gen 4 problem.

The next problem with the Glock 19 Gen 4 is the trigger. The pull weight is advertised at 5.5 pounds and has 5.5 pound connectors. However, these connectors actually create a six to eight pound pull. That is pretty hefty for a handgun. It has been proven over and over that heavy trigger pulls like this will ruin your accuracy and speed when it counts.

The primary issue is that the dual recoil spring was so powerful that it was causing jams. As stated above, Glock initially denied the issue saying that owners were using poor quality ammunition that caused the jams. However, roughly two years after the release of the Gen 4 Glock admitted that there was a problem and issued a recall on the recoil spring. This issue has been the primary complaint specific to the Glock 19 Gen 4.

Many users reported that the shells consistently kicked straight back at them. Getting a shell to the neck or down your shirt is annoying, but getting one in your face could kill you. If you are in the middle of defending yourself and get some hot brass in your eyes, it is going to distract you from your next shot. As far as I can tell there is no fix for this problem.

https://www.swggun.org/glock-19-gen-4-problems/

What manufacturer would you like to discuss??

It does shoot very nice, and has a great trigger.

It shoots like a much larger pistol.

[jr24]

Originally Posted by davidsog

No problem. Just seems weird because the P365 has smaller dimensions and is lighter than the Glock 26.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS2s9Dap6Z0

Yep, just too small for me.

[amd6547]

I really don't want to go smaller than my G26...and when you throw in G17 mag compatibility, it's a sure thing, for me.

[Fishbed77]

https://www.swggun.org/glock-19-gen-4-problems/

What manufacturer would you like to discuss??

You can roll you eyes all you want, but comparing introductory problems with a single product against multiple and repeated introductory problems across many product lines (1911GSR, P238, SIG556, SIG556xi, P320, P365) shows a lack of understanding of the issue at hand. What SIG Sauer US exhibits is a systemic problem rather than an isolated error.

Also, I never mentioned Glock, so not sure why that's your example. The 9mm Gen4 Glock introductory issues are well known, and looking at any of my posts on this site will show I'm not a Glock fanboy. I'm sorry you spent so much time copying and pasting irrelevant information.

Frankly, I own and enjoy a few German-made SIGs and have never had a problem with them. But as mentioned above, there are real issues with how SIG Sauer US operates, and one has to think is is because they are too focused on the brand and not enough on the product.

[Model12Win]

Originally Posted by Fishbed77

You can roll you eyes all you want, but comparing introductory problems with a single product against multiple and repeated introductory problems across many product lines (1911GSR, P238, SIG556, SIG556xi, P320, P365) shows a lack of understanding of the issue at hand. What SIG Sauer US exhibits is a systemic problem rather than an isolated error.

Also, I never mentioned Glock, so not sure why that's your example. The 9mm Gen4 Glock introductory issues are well known, and looking at any of my posts on this site will show I'm not a Glock fanboy. I'm sorry you spent so much time copying and pasting irrelevant information.

Frankly, I own and enjoy a few German-made SIGs and have never had a problem with them. But as mentioned above, there are real issues with how SIG Sauer US operates, and one has to think is is because they are too focused on the brand and not enough on the product.

+1

I have a REAL GERMAN made SIG SAUER P220 .45 ACP automatic pistol in .45 Colt's and it is LEAPS AND BOUNDS above the U.S. guns, any that I've seen. The Teutonic craftsmanship is frankly breathtaking and awe inspiring.

The U.S. guns?

Trash comparatively speaking. The new P365 is a JOKE.

[davidsog]

Hello I just bought a glock 23 used, but looks darn near perfect. However I shot it for the first time yesterday, and even from initial dry-firing. The trigger is MUCH stiffer than I expected.

Well mine is a Gen3. The trigger got AWFUL, To the point where it would not break at all.

My Glock 26 trigger was not resetting properly. After a few minutes of troubleshooting, I suspected the striker spring was too weak. I bought a replacement and installed it during this video as well as explaining the problem in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EBuA6jw2nw

mod12Win says:
You can roll you eyes all you want, but comparing introductory problems with a single product against multiple and repeated introductory problems across many product lines

You will have to point that out as I cannot find anything outside of the P320 Military trials drop safe requirement. The US Military drop safety standards are higher than any civilian gun manufacturer has to meet.

The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI®), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies.

Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.

https://www.sigsauer.com/press-relea...e-p320-pistol/

SIG voluntarily redesigned the service P320's to eliminate that issue. The issue was caused by redesigns the US Military wanted for its service pistols and is not found in any civilian version of the P320.

Through additional testing above and beyond standard American National Standards Institute (ANSI)/Sporting Arms & Ammunition Institute (SAAMI), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), Department of Justice (DOJ), Massachusetts, California, and other global military and law enforcement protocols, we have confirmed that usually after multiple drops, at certain angles and conditions, a potential discharge of the firearm may result when dropped. Although it is a rare occurrence, with very specific conditions, SIG SAUER is offering an upgrade to all of its current P320 owners.

This is a voluntary service, as the P320 meets and exceeds all ANSI/SAAMI, NIJ, DOJ, California, Massachusetts, and safety standards. Sig Sauer welcomes all of its P320 owners to take advantage of this program.

https://www.sigsauer.com/support/p32...ntary-upgrade/

The Army’s new handgun meets “all safety and operational requirements,” officials said Wednesday, after a recently published report revealed several issues with the Sig Sauer-made weapon.

Early evaluations of the Army’s new handgun, the M17, last year showed test failures when the pistol was fired with the standard ball ammunition, stoppages, and double ejections.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...al-dod-report/



Guns are manufactured items and there will ALWAYS be lemons on ANY assembly line no matter who makes the "product".

[davidsog]

I have a REAL GERMAN made SIG SAUER

I agree the German SIG's are much nicer in fit and finish. All my H&K's are the same way. They just look really nice.

That is a great thing to have but in the scheme of things not very important in a "working" tool. I carried a 1911 in 1/75th that looked like it landed on Omaha Beach. It worked great, looked horrible, but who cares.

Never heard a bad guy get up and complain how the finish of my weapon looked in any of my tours.

It was more important that my weapon shot well and functioned when required...

[davidsog]

Since you brought it up, I went over my P365 with a critical eye.

Honestly cannot complain after a 1000 rounds and hundreds of times drawing my P365...

The finish still looks great. I would have thought it would look worse as it gets beat up as an everyday carry piece.

[TunnelRat]

SIG voluntarily redesigned the service P320's to eliminate that issue. The issue was caused by redesigns the US Military wanted for its service pistols and is not found in any civilian version of the P320.

The issue was found in civilian P320 pistols. The fix from SIG was to replace those parts with the same parts that were replaced in the SIG P320 entry for the MHS as part of a change request for those trials.

Omaha Outdoors was one of the driving forces behind those civilian tests last year, though you can see additional tests from thefirearmblog and other YouTube reviewers as well:
https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/s...ils-drop-test/

An interview with SIG detailing the plans for the fix that turned into the Voluntary Recall:
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/08...-p320-upgrade/

Detailing how the drop issue was found during the military trials:
https://sofrep.com/98976/dod-evaluat...iddled-issues/

Through subsequent testing it was found that the results were repeatable with new pistols out of the box. Whether it was a rash of lemons is hard to judge. It's important to remember that the P320 lacks a trigger "dingus" or blade that acts as an additional drop safety, such as on a Glock, or an articulating trigger like on an M&P or FNS. What's interesting is early literature for the pistol listed such a feature as a potential option back when the pistol was released. This is an image from that literature:
https://www.google.com/search?q=p320...0k0Ig29RTDe5M:
The P320 gets around the need for this by using a trigger bar that moves forward rather than rearward in combination with a light trigger itself. The premise was the trigger being driven rearward wouldn't have the momentum to overcome the momentum of the trigger bar being driven rearward. However, obviously the balance of the weights wasn't quite what was needed. The redesigned P320 trigger shoe is significantly lighter than the previous iteration and in addition to internal changes fixes this issue.

It's a good point that the SIG passed the "industry standard" pistol tests. I think it's also worth pointing out that at the time other pistols were put through the same test the P320 failed and passed without issue:
https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/s...-follow-video/
We had a discussion back then of if the industry standard tests should include a drop tests that did impact the rear of the slide. It's obviously practically impossible to test every potential drop configuration, but it does seem an impact on the rear of the slide is an important consideration.

It was more important that my weapon shot well and functioned when required...

I think there have been a number of threads with complaints along those lines. As you say though, no manufacturer is perfect.

[davidsog]

The issue was found in civilian P320 pistols.

Yeah, I could only find the P320 issues too.

And those were the result of the DoD testing and ONLY when EXCEEDING the safety standards ALL pistol manufacturers have to meet.

From the articles you posted:

The first drop test we engaged in with our assortment of four Sig P320 pistols was structured on the California DOJ drop test, conducted at one meter and one centimeter above a concrete pad with the pistol dropped precisely at six different angles, all of which require the bore to be parallel to or perpendicular to the ground. All of our P320 pistols passed this test, which matches neatly with statements from Sig on the matter.

However, I decided to continue testing using other protocols, which call for drops from 1.5 meters, or approximately 5 feet

https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/s...ils-drop-test/

So when you exceed the safety requirements, the pistol failed.

Since only DoD tested pistols had to meet these 150% higher requirements......I wonder how many other pistols out there from other manufacturers would FAIL? We will never know because the requirements are not that high.

Some people didn’t like that we were, in effect, dropping the guns “wrong” according to the established protocols.

, our tests show that the standards need to be updated

It is understandable people did not like when someone does a completely different test and then muddies the waters to conclude it is the same test. I definitely agree with with the second statement the standard do need to be updated.



https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/s...-follow-video/

All SIG pistols, including the P320 are tested to the following industry and government standards: ANSI/SAAMI, NIJ, FBI/DOJ, TOP, Massachusetts, and California DOJ as well as various others. They are very specific tests, most of which are conducted by outside labs.

The P320 has passed all of those tests. Unfortunately, they don’t test the pistol’s performance when dropped at a -30deg unto concrete. They could drop test a pistol in every conceivable combination of angles on three axes, but that’s 46,000,000 different ways. Consequently, manufacturers build to a standard.

When asked if the existing testing protocols were good enough, Tom Taylor, Executive Vice President of Commercial Sales replied, “not for us.”

Since it’s introduction in 2014, they’ve sold around 500,000 P320s. There are three recorded cases of unintended discharges in LE channels . There is one additional commercial incident which I am familiar with but was not formally reported to SIG. That’s four known incidents from 500,000 weapons, many of which are used on a daily basis.

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/08...-p320-upgrade/

So basically:

mod12Win says:
You can roll you eyes all you want, but comparing introductory problems with a single product against multiple and repeated introductory problems across many product lines (1911GSR, P238, SIG556, SIG556xi, P320, P365) shows a lack of understanding of the issue at hand. What SIG Sauer US exhibits is a systemic problem rather than an isolated error.

We can conclude your early statement is an exaggeration. Given the nature of the internet and the amount of false information/perception that float around it is an understandable exaggeration but a false perception none the less!

The only fact is there was problem with the P320 in meeting the DoD higher standards than the civilian.

[TunnelRat]

We can conclude your early statement is an exaggeration.

I'm not sure if you were referring to me (it's a bit confusing as obviously many of your responses are directed to me but you then quote someone that isn't me), but that wasn't my statement. I'm not mod12win (and actually it was Fishbed77 that said that).

Since only DoD tested pistols had to meet these 150% higher requirements......I wonder how many other pistols out there from other manufacturers would FAIL? We will never know because the requirements are not that high.

One of the links I gave above goes into exactly that,
https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/s...-follow-video/

It is understandable people did not like when someone does a completely different test and then muddies the waters to conclude it is the same test.

Given that at multiple points they clarify that the specific tests they are conducting go outside of the scope of the typical tests, as you yourself quoted, I don't see this as muddying the waters. While it is a definite caveat, they freely admit that.

On the civilian side all of this concern started when Dallas PD pulled their P320s from service. This lead to rumor and then people conducting their own tests.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...till-repaired/

[jr24]

Was there not also a lawsuit from a Connecticut LEO?

I'm not sure if that went anywhere.

[TunnelRat]

I never heard if that was settled. Then there was another recently from an officer, but in all fairness this lawsuit doesn't seem credible, IMO,
https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/0...tal-discharge/

[davidsog]

I'm not sure if you were referring to me (it's a bit confusing as obviously many of your responses are directed to me but you then quote someone that isn't me), but that wasn't my statement. I'm not mod12win (and actually it was Fishbed77 that said that).

You are right it is not you that said it. My statement holds as I can find no facts to support the conclusion there is some systemic issue with SIG pistols.

Given that at multiple points they clarify that the specific tests they are conducting go outside of the scope of the typical tests, as you yourself quoted, I don't see this as muddying the waters.

It is muddying the waters in that the vast majority of people simply over look the fact their test was completely different and despite the fact they do mention it being completely different and therefore not applicable to the original test results, the average reader simply walks away with the impression this issue is only endemic to SIG designs.

Not the case or factual.

[davidsog]

Dallas Police Department’s suspension of use of the Sig Sauer P320 was based on a miscommunication of a non-existent defect.

There was never a “defect” with the P320. The confusion stemmed from an out-of-date manual that was given to the Dallas Police Department’s new lieutenant, according to Hunter.

Taking the necessary precautions with the older manual, the lieutenant temporarily suspended use of the P320 until Dallas PD could get in touch with Sig Sauer to clarify the issue.

A memo was issued to the Dallas Police Department detailing the temporary suspension, which someone leaked to another blog and the rumor mill began turning at a ferocious pace.

“The Dallas Police Department has not tested the P320 and has had no issue with the P320,”

https://www.tactical-life.com/news/s...320-dallas-pd/

[davidsog]

I never heard if that was settled. Then there was another recently from an officer, but in all fairness this lawsuit doesn't seem credible, IMO,

Yeah, it seems hokey. A negligent discharge from a holstered weapon has nothing to do with drop safety.

In accordance with academy policy, Deputy Vadnais began removing her firearm from her belt when she arrived.

According to the lawsuit, as she fed the belt through the holster’s first tooth, her SIG Sauer P320 somehow “fired one nine millimeter bullet, which hit her in the upper right thigh,” the Blast reported.

“At no time during this incident did she touch the trigger, which at all times was inside and covered by a SIG-manufactured holster,” the lawsuit read.

It looks to me like she accidentally squeezed the trigger trying to thread the belt into the holster.

Something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2cG4n7z0hA

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by davidsog

Yeah, it seems hokey. A negligent discharge from a holstered weapon has nothing to do with drop safety.



It looks to me like she accidentally squeezed the trigger trying to thread the belt into the holster.

Something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2cG4n7z0hA

Agreed.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Fishbed77]

Guns are manufactured items and there will ALWAYS be lemons on ANY assembly line no matter who makes the "product".

That is definitely true.

And there are definitely products that have design defects or QC fails across almost 100% of production. When that happens, you have recalls and redesigns. SIG Sauer US has certainly had their share of these products in the last 15 years.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by davidsog

It is muddying the waters in that the vast majority of people simply over look the fact their test was completely different and despite the fact they do mention it being completely different and therefore not applicable to the original test results, the average reader simply walks away with the impression this issue is only endemic to SIG designs.

Not the case or factual.

That people aren't willing to actually read the test isn't the fault of the people conducting the test. That's laziness on behalf of people. While that is often endemic today, I spend a good deal of my time doing research with very specific parameters. All I can do is clarify those parameters as much as possible. I can't control willful ignorance, nor can the authors there. Again I would point out that the other pistols they subjected to the same test, of various brands, did not encounter the same issue. Not using a bladed trigger, which is frankly the simplest solution to this potential problem, was IMO a mistake. None of this matters though as the problem is by all accounts behind them, I just think SIG could have made their lives easier.

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[davidsog]

SIG Sauer US has certainly had their share of these products in the last 15 years.

What is their share? Can you post a link of something outside of the P320? Not finding anything else from SIG.