Weapon Capacity for CQB

Nightcrawler · January 25, 2002, 01:52 AM

Now, obviously, more ammo is always better. But is it necessary?

Many will tell you that a 30 round AR or other rifle, or a 30 round submachine gun is necessary, and anything less is asking for trouble.

Many of those same folks turn around and would do building sweeps with a 14" barreled Remington 870 with total of 5 round capacity (Law Enforcement folks).

The nature of the shotgun, and 12 guage shells, makes the tubular magazine ideal for reliability, but unfortunately limits capacity to 9 or 10 at most.

So. For most SWAT-type CQB scenarios, how imporant is capacity, really? Is 20 or 30 rounds necessary, or can you do the job just as well with 10? Especially with the quick reload afforded by a detachable box magazine?

I think that with a rifle or shotgun, more than 5 or 6 shots become less important, as they're both more likely to put a target down with one shot than a pistol caliber submachine gun.

So, whaddaya say? How many rounds in a long gun is really necessary for the bulk of typical entry or building sweep situations? (assuming well-trained operators who make their shots count and don't spray one badguy with six or eight rounds every time.)

Nightcrawler · January 25, 2002, 02:30 AM

Another question: Weapon Length. I, for one, fail to believe that a 16" barreled AR-15 is some how magically more manuverable than one with 4" more barrel. Sure, there are situations where you might need that 4" extra clearance, but then, there are situations where a 10" barrel would be better.

On the other hand, in the upstairs hallway of my house, you couldn't hold an MP5K at the shoulder and rotate 180* without the muzzle hitting something.

On the...um...third...hand, inside of a big shopping mall, with wide hallways, open areas, and long concourses, the overall length of the weapon probably wouldn't matter much at all.

I, for one, practiced room sweeps with my 22" barreled Winchester pump shotgun. Not ideal, but I could do it if I had to.

In World War II, many GIs did vicious house to house and indoor fighting with full length M1 Garands. The M1 is, of course, about as far from being "tactical" as you can get, and no one would say it's the ideal CQB weapon. But somehow, they managed, even facing German soldiers sporting MP-40s and the like.

Do you think YOU could do CQB type building clearing with a Garand (or some other weapon that's far from being ideally suited to the task) if you had to? If so, what special tactics could you use to help wth the weapon's long length in confined spaces? I think shot placement could make up for lower capacity, as seen in Garands and the bulk of shotguns out there.

SKN · January 25, 2002, 04:47 AM

For pre-planned actions mission objective(s) and intell on target loc and adversaries will almost always determine equipment load out. For extraordinary interventions you go with what you've got.

BillX · January 26, 2002, 06:46 PM

Actually, in WWII, house clearing was most usually done with grenades.

C.R.Sam · January 26, 2002, 09:52 PM

BILLX beat me to it.
Grenades often first choice, even today.
Most of the people usin em are clearing other people"s houses tho and don't have to worry bout lighting fires in carpet, furnature, curtains etc etc.

Lot of difference tween clearin your own house, somebody else's house or a mall. Day n night difference.

Sam

Jeff White · January 27, 2002, 12:00 AM

Nightcrawler,

If you are a patrol officer and you have to clear a building after the burglar alarm sounds and all you've got is the Remington 870 when you find the open door you use that.

If you are a soldier and you have to clear a village of enemy soldiers you grab all the loaded magazines, grenades and demo you can carry. If the rules of engagement allow, you don't use doors, you blow mouseholes with demo and enter through them. You use whatever service rifle you are issued. And carry as many loaded rounds or clips as you can. And fill your pockets with grenades. If you know the bad guys are in the building, you isolate it (by fire preferably), supress any fire coming from it. The assault squad blows a hole in the wall, a frag goes in the hole (after cooking it off), then a couple of bursts are fired in, then the room is entered, the entry team shooting anyone left standing. This process is repeated till the building is clear.

The procedure is very different if the ROE is different. But it's the procedure and the people who do it that makes the difference. The tools are secondary. I think we tend to forget that sometimes. It's the man much more then it is the equipment. Given a squad who knows the M1 and how to clear a building and a squad with the latest CQB version of the M4A1 and no knowledge of what they are doing and give them the same mission, who do you think would be successful?

Jeff

Mannlicher · January 27, 2002, 01:42 PM

I often keep my old short barreled 16 ga double by the bed, with 6 extra #4 buck in a stock sleeve. I don't feel undergunned.

Mustang6 · January 31, 2002, 07:46 PM

I have a nice M590 Pump with 8+1 by my bed..and knowing that the chambering of a round will probably send anyone in their right mind running I dont worry about 20+. Use what feels right..a shotgun however is the best weapon for house clearing.

Semper Fi

yorec · February 1, 2002, 01:11 AM

I had a class on longarm building clearance last year. Spent two days practicing clearing an old highschool. We had folks carrying ARs (20, 16 and 11.5" barrels), HK MP9s, shotguns of varying makes and lengths, and four guys whose SO had sent them with M14s. Here's just a couple things that became apparent.

The M14 is a great rifle for felony car stops, long range engagements and such, but it's just too heavy to clear buildings with. The M-1 Garand falls into the same category. The other longarms suffered to a lesser extent directly proportionate to the length of thier barrels. (An 18 inch shotgun, which I carried, was preferable to a 20 inch, which a coworker carried, and yes we could tell the difference - sometimes instantly!)

When clearing a building for an unknown or hidden threat the longarm is held "at the ready" with cheek weld in place for fastest possible firing time. This must be held nearly from start to finish and the M-14 guys were cussing those big heavy, though wonderful in other ways, battle rifles. The clearance can take several minutes or maybe even hours, depending on the building size and/or obstacles encountered. Highschools, even small town ones, are pretty large and we spent an hour per floor on this one. Other places are much bigger, taking proportionatly longer. This is why I don't hink you'll see any modern agency employ a building clearance crew with anything heavier than the lightest longarm they issue. In WWII the Garand might have been it, but a clearance crew devoid of explosives would have been wishing for a M-1 Carbine or Thompson subgun not long after entering. In fact I'll bet they opted for a sidearm if they had 'em.

Another thing I learned is that shotguns do make excellent tools for the clearance crew - they are capable of much more than simply mowing down armed threats. They can even be used as breeching tools with some doors and walls when firing buckshot. But at least some of the crew should be armed with rifles as they have greater range and accuracy which might be important at even "just down the hallway" distances. (The distance across the gymnasium floor at our local highschool is 40 yards - "Waddya mean you only brought three slugs?!?!") So a clearance crew (notice I don't feel like calling 'em a team today- wonder why?) should be made up of both center fire longarm and shotgun weilders.

One last thing that this class really brought out - it's not neccessarily the weapon used in building clearances, it's the weapon light and it's discipline and use that might mean the difference between life and death! That's a whole different ball o' wax.

Dave3006 · February 3, 2002, 10:45 PM

Here is why I take a semi auto shotgun. When you are clearing houses, you and your opponent will, most likely, stumble on each other in one 2-3 second period of sheer panic and terror. The one that wins will be the one that puts the other guy down the fastest. Speed of incapacitation is the key issue for CQB. Even if he dies seconds after you drill him with a fancy .223 space gun, he lives long enough to shoot you back. The shotgun with 00 buck is not perfect. However, it puts people down fast. Secondly, the minute both of you make contact, both of you will start moving. Shotguns have been used to hit moving targets far more often than rifles.

CQB - two people at arms distance scared as hell moving like crazy pulling the trigger as fast as they can. This is real life.

January 25, 2002, 01:52 AM	#1
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	Weapon Capacity for CQB Now, obviously, more ammo is always better. But is it necessary? Many will tell you that a 30 round AR or other rifle, or a 30 round submachine gun is necessary, and anything less is asking for trouble. Many of those same folks turn around and would do building sweeps with a 14" barreled Remington 870 with total of 5 round capacity (Law Enforcement folks). The nature of the shotgun, and 12 guage shells, makes the tubular magazine ideal for reliability, but unfortunately limits capacity to 9 or 10 at most. So. For most SWAT-type CQB scenarios, how imporant is capacity, really? Is 20 or 30 rounds necessary, or can you do the job just as well with 10? Especially with the quick reload afforded by a detachable box magazine? I think that with a rifle or shotgun, more than 5 or 6 shots become less important, as they're both more likely to put a target down with one shot than a pistol caliber submachine gun. So, whaddaya say? How many rounds in a long gun is really necessary for the bulk of typical entry or building sweep situations? (assuming well-trained operators who make their shots count and don't spray one badguy with six or eight rounds every time.) __________________ Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus

January 25, 2002, 02:30 AM	#2
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	Another question: Weapon Length. I, for one, fail to believe that a 16" barreled AR-15 is some how magically more manuverable than one with 4" more barrel. Sure, there are situations where you might need that 4" extra clearance, but then, there are situations where a 10" barrel would be better. On the other hand, in the upstairs hallway of my house, you couldn't hold an MP5K at the shoulder and rotate 180* without the muzzle hitting something. On the...um...third...hand, inside of a big shopping mall, with wide hallways, open areas, and long concourses, the overall length of the weapon probably wouldn't matter much at all. I, for one, practiced room sweeps with my 22" barreled Winchester pump shotgun. Not ideal, but I could do it if I had to. In World War II, many GIs did vicious house to house and indoor fighting with full length M1 Garands. The M1 is, of course, about as far from being "tactical" as you can get, and no one would say it's the ideal CQB weapon. But somehow, they managed, even facing German soldiers sporting MP-40s and the like. Do you think YOU could do CQB type building clearing with a Garand (or some other weapon that's far from being ideally suited to the task) if you had to? If so, what special tactics could you use to help wth the weapon's long length in confined spaces? I think shot placement could make up for lower capacity, as seen in Garands and the bulk of shotguns out there. __________________ Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus

January 27, 2002, 12:00 AM	#6
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	You use what you've got...... Nightcrawler, If you are a patrol officer and you have to clear a building after the burglar alarm sounds and all you've got is the Remington 870 when you find the open door you use that. If you are a soldier and you have to clear a village of enemy soldiers you grab all the loaded magazines, grenades and demo you can carry. If the rules of engagement allow, you don't use doors, you blow mouseholes with demo and enter through them. You use whatever service rifle you are issued. And carry as many loaded rounds or clips as you can. And fill your pockets with grenades. If you know the bad guys are in the building, you isolate it (by fire preferably), supress any fire coming from it. The assault squad blows a hole in the wall, a frag goes in the hole (after cooking it off), then a couple of bursts are fired in, then the room is entered, the entry team shooting anyone left standing. This process is repeated till the building is clear. The procedure is very different if the ROE is different. But it's the procedure and the people who do it that makes the difference. The tools are secondary. I think we tend to forget that sometimes. It's the man much more then it is the equipment. Given a squad who knows the M1 and how to clear a building and a squad with the latest CQB version of the M4A1 and no knowledge of what they are doing and give them the same mission, who do you think would be successful? Jeff

January 27, 2002, 01:42 PM	#7
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	I often keep my old short barreled 16 ga double by the bed, with 6 extra #4 buck in a stock sleeve. I don't feel undergunned. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

January 31, 2002, 07:46 PM	#8
Mustang6 Member Join Date: January 28, 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 71	Go with what works I have a nice M590 Pump with 8+1 by my bed..and knowing that the chambering of a round will probably send anyone in their right mind running I dont worry about 20+. Use what feels right..a shotgun however is the best weapon for house clearing. Semper Fi

January 25, 2002, 04:47 AM	#3
SKN Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 1998 Location: Oregon Posts: 264	For pre-planned actions mission objective(s) and intell on target loc and adversaries will almost always determine equipment load out. For extraordinary interventions you go with what you've got.

January 26, 2002, 06:46 PM	#4
BillX Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2000 Location: Boilermaker Country, Indiana Posts: 131	Actually, in WWII, house clearing was most usually done with grenades. __________________ "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken

January 26, 2002, 09:52 PM	#5
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	BILLX beat me to it. Grenades often first choice, even today. Most of the people usin em are clearing other people"s houses tho and don't have to worry bout lighting fires in carpet, furnature, curtains etc etc. Lot of difference tween clearin your own house, somebody else's house or a mall. Day n night difference. Sam

February 1, 2002, 01:11 AM	#9
yorec Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,328	I had a class on longarm building clearance last year. Spent two days practicing clearing an old highschool. We had folks carrying ARs (20, 16 and 11.5" barrels), HK MP9s, shotguns of varying makes and lengths, and four guys whose SO had sent them with M14s. Here's just a couple things that became apparent. The M14 is a great rifle for felony car stops, long range engagements and such, but it's just too heavy to clear buildings with. The M-1 Garand falls into the same category. The other longarms suffered to a lesser extent directly proportionate to the length of thier barrels. (An 18 inch shotgun, which I carried, was preferable to a 20 inch, which a coworker carried, and yes we could tell the difference - sometimes instantly!) When clearing a building for an unknown or hidden threat the longarm is held "at the ready" with cheek weld in place for fastest possible firing time. This must be held nearly from start to finish and the M-14 guys were cussing those big heavy, though wonderful in other ways, battle rifles. The clearance can take several minutes or maybe even hours, depending on the building size and/or obstacles encountered. Highschools, even small town ones, are pretty large and we spent an hour per floor on this one. Other places are much bigger, taking proportionatly longer. This is why I don't hink you'll see any modern agency employ a building clearance crew with anything heavier than the lightest longarm they issue. In WWII the Garand might have been it, but a clearance crew devoid of explosives would have been wishing for a M-1 Carbine or Thompson subgun not long after entering. In fact I'll bet they opted for a sidearm if they had 'em. Another thing I learned is that shotguns do make excellent tools for the clearance crew - they are capable of much more than simply mowing down armed threats. They can even be used as breeching tools with some doors and walls when firing buckshot. But at least some of the crew should be armed with rifles as they have greater range and accuracy which might be important at even "just down the hallway" distances. (The distance across the gymnasium floor at our local highschool is 40 yards - "Waddya mean you only brought three slugs?!?!") So a clearance crew (notice I don't feel like calling 'em a team today- wonder why?) should be made up of both center fire longarm and shotgun weilders. One last thing that this class really brought out - it's not neccessarily the weapon used in building clearances, it's the weapon light and it's discipline and use that might mean the difference between life and death! That's a whole different ball o' wax. __________________ What part of "... shall not be infringed..." don't you understand?

February 3, 2002, 10:45 PM	#10
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	Here is why I take a semi auto shotgun. When you are clearing houses, you and your opponent will, most likely, stumble on each other in one 2-3 second period of sheer panic and terror. The one that wins will be the one that puts the other guy down the fastest. Speed of incapacitation is the key issue for CQB. Even if he dies seconds after you drill him with a fancy .223 space gun, he lives long enough to shoot you back. The shotgun with 00 buck is not perfect. However, it puts people down fast. Secondly, the minute both of you make contact, both of you will start moving. Shotguns have been used to hit moving targets far more often than rifles. CQB - two people at arms distance scared as hell moving like crazy pulling the trigger as fast as they can. This is real life.