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Old May 27, 2014, 11:08 AM   #1
Tinner666
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I Wonder ??? Ill Defined Law?

Instead of sidetracking another thread, http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=547165


I wonder at times. Wife and I both carry. What's mine is hers, what's hers is mine. I sometimes carry 'her' pistol, and vice versa.
At times over the years, one or the other of us started to buy a firearm, and was short of money, forgot to plan and bring money, left ID in car, or at home, and the dealer would sell to either of us, usually after comparing ID's for address purposes, carry permits, or whatever.
To be honest, no subterfuge intended and the dealers have always said it was legal, but I wonder if it crosses some ill defined line?

No firearm is actually 'registered' to either of us like they require in NY for example. And in the early days of CCW, we had to list our carry guns and our lists were identical since we just grabbed what we wanted that day.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; May 27, 2014 at 11:22 AM.
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Old May 28, 2014, 02:42 AM   #2
JimmyR
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Personally, I have never tried this.

I'm not an FFL holder, but I do have a state issues license (Licensed Social Worker), and know that I do everything I can NOT to put it at risk by following all local and Federal laws at close to the letter as possible. If an ID is required for a 4473, then it should be the ID of the person buying the gun, and not someone elses. End of story.
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Old May 28, 2014, 06:13 AM   #3
green_MTman
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a hunting rifle or shotgun maybe? BUT in the states of NY,conn or mass never play around with pistol carry laws.

as far as i know you must specifily get a carry permit that specify"s the actual gun your carrying.

example: when the chief of police, barack commanfer of state police or sherrif of your county gives you a permit to carry say a " S&W 45 ACP with a certain seriel #" the gun you carry must me that.you cant carry any gun you own if you feel like it.

i grew up in massachusetts and NY law may be different but mass and NY run pretty close on guns laws
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Old May 28, 2014, 10:45 AM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
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He's in Virginia, so NY and MA state laws are entirely irrelevent. The only laws that matters is VA and federal.

I'm quite certain that VA could care less how you do it.

I don't know that federal law or the 4473 address partially gifting, dual purchasing or co-ownership in any way shape or form.

The pertinent question is #11a, which states:

Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are Yes NO acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)


and the instructions read:

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are
the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or
otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from
pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raflle winner). You are also the
actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift
for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a.


I could theoretically forsee the ATF making an issue if one of you contributed money and the other filled out the form. Stupid, but I can see them doing it.

If only one of you pays for it, there's no issue. If it goes to the other person, it's a gift. If it remains property of the person on the form, there is no restriction on who can use/carry it. If it's personally (or even legally under VA law) considered "jointly held" property as very many married folks consider all their property, it's still essentially the property of the purchaser. How your personal beliefs consider the ownership isn't really valid. ATF doesn't really have any provision or rule for such things, as far as I've ever read/heard.

(I am not a lawyer)
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Old May 28, 2014, 01:33 PM   #5
green_MTman
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for some reason i thought the OP sais he was in New York.i apologize i mis read the post
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Old May 28, 2014, 07:20 PM   #6
Tinner666
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Just curious. For instance she picked one out, found she forgot her purse. I bought it and gifted it to her. Yes, our names are the same, unlike the example on the form, and our address is identical too. We have 'our' firearms, but often as not, I might be carrying 'hers' one day while she carries one of mine.

Quote:
example: when the chief of police, barack commanfer of state police or sherrif of your county gives you a permit to carry say a " S&W 45 ACP with a certain seriel #" the gun you carry must me that.you cant carry any gun you own if you feel like it.
Same here, but having more than one, they got the whole list, with required S#. Whatever they found on me would be on the list. Fact.
In practice, when 'made', I was asked if I had a permit and an affirative answer satisfied the officer. Only times I had to produce the permit were at shooting/crime scenes.
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Old May 28, 2014, 10:07 PM   #7
green_MTman
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@Tinner
yea if your state does it that way.in a place like Massachusetts if you LTC say "glock 9mm S#34561" then you can only carry that.but if you know the laws of your state then thats what matters.

in vermont you can have any gun anytime you like on your person as long as you dont conceal it.you can apply for a concealed weapons permit but no one does because open carry laws are so relaxed.in VT no one would think twice about a person walking down main st with a AK 47,its also legal to be naked in public as long as you dont touch yourself or make gestures.

in vermont most people are either hippies or rednecks so either way freedom is big and goverment is small.whether you like left wing freedoms or right wing freedoms Vermont is a place anyone can do what they want.not to mention in vermont most of the hippies have guns and most of the rednecks smoke pot so go figure.
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Old May 31, 2014, 03:54 AM   #8
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Here in Iowa you can carry what ever you want no matter if you have a CC. You can also with the permit have a loaded gun in your auto also.If you do not have a CC you can get a permit to buy a handgun that is good for a year.you can use it on any gun,but full auto.It is fed that you have a class 3 lic. for full auto.You also fill out the regular paper work to transfer the gun also unless it is just between 2 people with no one have a FFL .
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Old May 31, 2014, 07:08 AM   #9
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A Massachusetts LTC does not specify a particular gun. They've got some pretty draconian gun laws (spent too many years there), but they don't have that one. Yet.
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