a modest proposal

TWB · September 22, 2007, 03:18 AM

Time and again on TFL, there is a wide divide on a single brand of firearm: Taurus. The promoters are cult-like in their devotion. The detractors are vociferous and unforgiving.

This brand of firearm seems to have a higher than usual polarization rate than any other brand, and invariably results in long, drawn-out arguments that produce much smoke and little light. The subject is notorious for producing "gig" posts, intent only on instigating another protracted love-hate fest, with name calling, rude commentary, and other degenerations.

To be sure there is the occasional post saying "I'll never buy another (S&W/H&K/SIG/etc.)" and delineates a problem with a single, specific gun, or "The service I got from (S&W/H&K/SIG/etc.) really sucked and I'll never buy anything from this company again." These usually result in a fair amount of pro/anti commentary, but usually there are quite a few "try this.." posts, and sometimes, something actually gets resolved. The level of interpersonal diatribe tends to less and shorter lived than Taurus posts. In short, the Taurus "debate" is constant, not occasional.

I would agree that it is operationally suicidal to have a different forum for every brand of gun, but, can we have a separate forum for this divisive and downright boring recurring nightmare?

twb

darrentxs · September 22, 2007, 04:06 AM

Here's what I learned from this forum: Taurus guns - some are good some stink. Taurus service - sometimes good, sometimes stinks. I now never need to read another Taurus thread. Thanks everybody!

TheBluesMan · September 22, 2007, 08:05 AM

I understand and appreciate your pain, TWB, as do many others here I'm sure. I don't think that a "Taurus" forum is the solution, nor do I think that a "Divisive and Downright Boring Recurring Nightmare" Forum would help.

The problem is that people have opinions; often strong ones founded in experience. We're not going to do anything to squelch the exchange of polite opinion on TFL - that's what we're here for.

Unfortunately, the only solution I can come up with is for you to skip reading these threads. I know that it's like looking at a grisly picture - you don't know you didn't want to see it until after you've looked.

Perhaps another member or staff member will have a better suggestion.

-Dave

**Mal H** · September 22, 2007, 09:51 AM

As Dave said above, we feel your pain - perhaps more than you do!

I agree with him that a separate forum would not solve the problem. In fact, it could conceivably make it worse. What would stop the detractors from visiting that forum? Having all the Taurus threads in one forum would make them an even easier target.

I do suggest that you and anyone else spotting the extremely devisive posts to notify us by pressing the "Report this post" button (

). That, of course, shouldn't be overused just because a discussion gets a little heated. It should be used when a member is obviously trolling for heat or takes the "discussion" to a personal level. And this advice pertains to all subjects, not just Taurus firearms.

Sarge · September 22, 2007, 10:24 AM

Brand haters and cheerleaders exist in significant numbers across the market spectrum, and it ain't just guns. You'll find the same thing whether you're discussing work trucks, chainsaws, etc.

Another useful solution to this problem is that whenever you see a post that offers nothing to the topic other than sensationalism or pot-stirring- add the author to your ignore list. I used to wait until I had seen 2-3 of these from one poster, until I found out I was wasting valuable time reading drivel. 'Drill 'em' on the first drivel and you'll find your 'quality of life' in these venues will improve significantly.

TWB · September 22, 2007, 10:37 AM

Oh, well, it was worth a try.

Mal H, I appreciate the offer to quell riots, but I've pretty much quit reading these things. I guess my chagrin is in coming and reading the list of new posts, anticipating something useful or novel or at least interesting, and finding the SOS. It's a letdown. I do admit to being part of the problem when I first arrived, so I cannot, in good conscience, be pushy about this in any way.

I guess there are a limited number of subjects on which to write posts, when your basic subject is a single entity such as firearms, but one can always hope. Even as good a forum as TFL needs a dustbin, though.

twb

TWB · September 22, 2007, 10:41 AM

invssgt, good idea. I hadn't considered this approach. Thanks..

twb

**Bud Helms** · September 22, 2007, 03:27 PM

Another point ... a Taurus forum, as an example, is nothing more than an attraction to those that would bash Taurus. Futility.

**JohnKSa** · September 22, 2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Time and again on TFL, there is a wide divide on a single brand of firearm: Taurus. The promoters are cult-like in their devotion. The detractors are vociferous and unforgiving.

And Hi-Point. And Glock. And Ruger. And the 1911. And... (You get the picture.)

It's not an issue with a brand, it's an issue with people. There are WAY too many who think only in the following terms:

I have or have shot or have read about a gun like that--it works and/or I like it so all guns like this are great and anyone who doesn't like them is an idiot.

I have or have shot or have read about a gun like that--it doesn't work and/or I don't like it so all guns like this are crap and anyone who likes them is an idiot.

And there are also WAY too many people who can't understand that all criticism and praise does NOT come from people who think as above.

What we need is a sub-forum for people who can't get beyond their emotions and their own limited personal experience to understand that what they feel and experience doesn't apply universally to the other few billion people on the planet. Then they could stay in their sub-forum and argue heatedly about Coke vs Pepsi and Less Filling vs Tastes Great 'til their keyboards wear out and leave the rational folks to enjoy the rest of the forum.

THAT would fix things.

TheBluesMan · September 22, 2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

What we need is a sub-forum for people who can't get beyond their emotions and their own limited personal experience to understand that what they feel and experience doesn't apply universally to the other few billion people on the planet. Then they could stay in their sub-forum and argue heatedly about Coke vs Pepsi and Less Filling vs Tastes Great 'til their keyboards wear out and leave the rational folks to enjoy the rest of the forum.

THAT would fix things.

+1

TWB · September 22, 2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

And Hi-Point. And Glock. And Ruger. And the 1911. And... (You get the picture.)

Reread the third paragraph of my original post. There have been heated and inappropriate "discussions" about other brands, but these are far fewer in number than with Taurus. Many are as I described in my original post. I have a theory on why this divide occurs, but it involves a concept with which one of the groups in the argument would take umbrage.

Quote:

What we need is a sub-forum for people who can't get beyond their emotions and their own limited personal experience to understand that what they feel and experience doesn't apply universally to the other few billion people on the planet. Then they could stay in their sub-forum and argue heatedly about Coke vs Pepsi and Less Filling vs Tastes Great 'til their keyboards wear out and leave the rational folks to enjoy the rest of the forum.

THAT would fix things.

This is pretty much what I had in mind: a quarantine zone. I picked on Taurus based on sheer numbers. You base your idea on total numbers and the entire array of problematic subjects. I bow to your broader view, and superior concept. This would leave room for the folks that are here to learn, pass on skills and ideas, and for the folks who express a noncombative, reasoned opinion.

I believe you have offered an appropriate and well reasoned solution.

twb

Don H · September 22, 2007, 11:07 PM

Even better if the posts in the sub-forum were automatically deleted in, say, 20 minutes. That would allow the poster to bask in his vituperative glory for a moment yet not unduly burden the membership with sophomoric rantings.

**Mal H** · September 23, 2007, 12:08 AM

You do realize that John was talking about the "new" forum somewhat tongue-in-cheek, right? It's not going to actually be added.

Wildalaska · September 23, 2007, 12:53 AM

A forum about Taurus just wont work, it would be cheaply done and the mods wont be able to fix anything for weeks on end

You could have subforums about MIM and I bet a guy from the Brazil Police would show up...once

WildyouknowsomeonenamelyIwouldsaythathuhAlaska TM

Don H · September 23, 2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

You do realize that John was talking about the "new" forum somewhat tongue-in-cheek, right? It's not going to actually be added.

Of course. I was merely indulging a whimsical fantasy.

TWB · September 23, 2007, 01:36 PM

Mal H, did JohnKSa consult with you on this?

I came here with a well reasoned and earnest suggestion, ignored the obviously flawed logic of some replies, including yours, in order to maintain a decent decorum, and now, you tell me that in

Suggestions, Questions and Tech Support
Want to offer your suggestions to improve The Firing Line? Need Tech Support on posting, email, etc.? Post your
comments or questions about TFL here.

staff members are here simply to shine folks on and jerk their chains? Surely, you jest. I have never had any reason to doubt the veracity of any member of the staff and management of TFL. Are you saying the spam commentary of Kimberpro was true? Nah, I trust JohnKSa to be a straight dealer. I cannot conceive of facing a problem such as has been delineated here, which is so pervasive and divisive, and then making no effort to resolve the problem. If you fear the problem more than the solution, of what value is this element of TFL, and its staff? I trust JohnKSa to be a man of his word and purge this forum of its resident evils and weak sisters in management. Blood may have to flow and heads may have to roll, but that is the price of liberty from the tyranny of ... you know what I mean.

At this juncture I must say: made ya squeamish, didn't I? And thanks to JohnKSa for fixing the Kimberpro spam problem.

twb

fisherman66 · September 23, 2007, 01:41 PM

I clicked on this thread hoping to get a new recipe. Come on TWB, yer "swifter" than this. Put the jerks on ignore and enjoy this place.

TWB · September 23, 2007, 01:59 PM

Whoa, guy, did that last post not soak in to you as rather absurd? When it comes to being a Jedi smartass, I can hold my own.

For those that missed the final real post of mine, look back to "oh well, it was worth a try." Personally, I have no idea what a subforum is, but it struck me as the same thing as had already been suggested and rejected. The offer was made and seconded, I simply said yes.

Now I'm paranoid that the staff folks will take this nutcake commentary as you did.

HEY FOLKS...THIS THREAD WAS DEAD A HALF DOZEN POSTS AGO. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN HAVING FUN WITH IT EVER SINCE THEN.

sheesh

twb

fisherman66 · September 23, 2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

nutcake

Does it have any bizarre protein in it? My wife has two cats that would go great wrapped in bacon.

I can't figger out why you come off so defensive. Must be the Taurus.

Quote:

Reason: hoping to end this thread

I just don't believe you.

TWB · September 23, 2007, 02:26 PM

Ya know, you're right. Nutcake has bizarre protein and apparently, a dash of heavily unreasoned paranoia. Believe me, I did not intend to offend.

twb

**JohnKSa** · September 23, 2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Now I'm paranoid that the staff folks will take this nutcake commentary as you did.

All I caught was the part about Resident Evil. Milla... (Don't we have a drooling smiley?)

TheBluesMan · September 23, 2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWB

I did not intend to offend.

Don't worry about it TWB. I believe everyone is just having a little fun with this thread. You certainly have a good sense of humor about all of it. I almost took your last post seriously for a while.

fisherman66 · September 23, 2007, 05:18 PM

I'm glad we've got that Tauri thing behind us. I've never had a bad thing to say about Taurus. Now, Rossi....Sux!

**Mal H** · September 23, 2007, 08:17 PM

Don't worry TWB, I knew where you were coming from.

When you said, "... the obviously flawed logic of some replies, including yours ...", I then knew you were joshing with us because everyone knows I am renowned for my impeccable logic.

On a more serious note, and I don't want to put words in fisherman66's mouth, but when he said, "Put the jerks on ignore ...", I'm pretty sure he was talking about the Taurus detractors, not the moderators or other contributors to this thread.

fisherman66 · September 23, 2007, 08:40 PM

Roger that Mal

September 22, 2007, 03:18 AM	#1
TWB Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2007 Posts: 145	a modest proposal Time and again on TFL, there is a wide divide on a single brand of firearm: Taurus. The promoters are cult-like in their devotion. The detractors are vociferous and unforgiving. This brand of firearm seems to have a higher than usual polarization rate than any other brand, and invariably results in long, drawn-out arguments that produce much smoke and little light. The subject is notorious for producing "gig" posts, intent only on instigating another protracted love-hate fest, with name calling, rude commentary, and other degenerations. To be sure there is the occasional post saying "I'll never buy another (S&W/H&K/SIG/etc.)" and delineates a problem with a single, specific gun, or "The service I got from (S&W/H&K/SIG/etc.) really sucked and I'll never buy anything from this company again." These usually result in a fair amount of pro/anti commentary, but usually there are quite a few "try this.." posts, and sometimes, something actually gets resolved. The level of interpersonal diatribe tends to less and shorter lived than Taurus posts. In short, the Taurus "debate" is constant, not occasional. I would agree that it is operationally suicidal to have a different forum for every brand of gun, but, can we have a separate forum for this divisive and downright boring recurring nightmare? twb

September 22, 2007, 04:06 AM	#2
darrentxs Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2007 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 401	Here's what I learned from this forum: Taurus guns - some are good some stink. Taurus service - sometimes good, sometimes stinks. I now never need to read another Taurus thread. Thanks everybody! __________________ Happy Trails to You

September 22, 2007, 08:05 AM	#3
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	I understand and appreciate your pain, TWB, as do many others here I'm sure. I don't think that a "Taurus" forum is the solution, nor do I think that a "Divisive and Downright Boring Recurring Nightmare" Forum would help. The problem is that people have opinions; often strong ones founded in experience. We're not going to do anything to squelch the exchange of polite opinion on TFL - that's what we're here for. Unfortunately, the only solution I can come up with is for you to skip reading these threads. I know that it's like looking at a grisly picture - you don't know you didn't want to see it until after you've looked. Perhaps another member or staff member will have a better suggestion. -Dave __________________ -Dave Miller ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection. Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10

September 22, 2007, 10:24 AM	#5
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Brand haters and cheerleaders exist in significant numbers across the market spectrum, and it ain't just guns. You'll find the same thing whether you're discussing work trucks, chainsaws, etc. Another useful solution to this problem is that whenever you see a post that offers nothing to the topic other than sensationalism or pot-stirring- add the author to your ignore list. I used to wait until I had seen 2-3 of these from one poster, until I found out I was wasting valuable time reading drivel. 'Drill 'em' on the first drivel and you'll find your 'quality of life' in these venues will improve significantly. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

September 23, 2007, 01:41 PM	#17
fisherman66 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2005 Location: The Woodlands TX Posts: 4,679	I clicked on this thread hoping to get a new recipe. Come on TWB, yer "swifter" than this. Put the jerks on ignore and enjoy this place. __________________ la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!

September 22, 2007, 09:51 AM	#4
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	As Dave said above, we feel your pain - perhaps more than you do! I agree with him that a separate forum would not solve the problem. In fact, it could conceivably make it worse. What would stop the detractors from visiting that forum? Having all the Taurus threads in one forum would make them an even easier target. I do suggest that you and anyone else spotting the extremely devisive posts to notify us by pressing the "Report this post" button ( ). That, of course, shouldn't be overused just because a discussion gets a little heated. It should be used when a member is obviously trolling for heat or takes the "discussion" to a personal level. And this advice pertains to all subjects, not just Taurus firearms.

September 22, 2007, 10:37 AM	#6
TWB Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2007 Posts: 145	Oh, well, it was worth a try. Mal H, I appreciate the offer to quell riots, but I've pretty much quit reading these things. I guess my chagrin is in coming and reading the list of new posts, anticipating something useful or novel or at least interesting, and finding the SOS. It's a letdown. I do admit to being part of the problem when I first arrived, so I cannot, in good conscience, be pushy about this in any way. I guess there are a limited number of subjects on which to write posts, when your basic subject is a single entity such as firearms, but one can always hope. Even as good a forum as TFL needs a dustbin, though. twb

September 22, 2007, 10:41 AM	#7
TWB Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2007 Posts: 145	invssgt, good idea. I hadn't considered this approach. Thanks.. twb

September 22, 2007, 03:27 PM	#8
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Another point ... a Taurus forum, as an example, is nothing more than an attraction to those that would bash Taurus. Futility.

September 22, 2007, 11:07 PM	#12
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	Even better if the posts in the sub-forum were automatically deleted in, say, 20 minutes. That would allow the poster to bask in his vituperative glory for a moment yet not unduly burden the membership with sophomoric rantings.

September 23, 2007, 12:08 AM	#13
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	You do realize that John was talking about the "new" forum somewhat tongue-in-cheek, right? It's not going to actually be added.

September 23, 2007, 12:53 AM	#14
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	A forum about Taurus just wont work, it would be cheaply done and the mods wont be able to fix anything for weeks on end You could have subforums about MIM and I bet a guy from the Brazil Police would show up...once WildyouknowsomeonenamelyIwouldsaythathuhAlaska TM

September 23, 2007, 01:36 PM	#16
TWB Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2007 Posts: 145	Mal H, did JohnKSa consult with you on this? I came here with a well reasoned and earnest suggestion, ignored the obviously flawed logic of some replies, including yours, in order to maintain a decent decorum, and now, you tell me that in Suggestions, Questions and Tech Support Want to offer your suggestions to improve The Firing Line? Need Tech Support on posting, email, etc.? Post your comments or questions about TFL here. staff members are here simply to shine folks on and jerk their chains? Surely, you jest. I have never had any reason to doubt the veracity of any member of the staff and management of TFL. Are you saying the spam commentary of Kimberpro was true? Nah, I trust JohnKSa to be a straight dealer. I cannot conceive of facing a problem such as has been delineated here, which is so pervasive and divisive, and then making no effort to resolve the problem. If you fear the problem more than the solution, of what value is this element of TFL, and its staff? I trust JohnKSa to be a man of his word and purge this forum of its resident evils and weak sisters in management. Blood may have to flow and heads may have to roll, but that is the price of liberty from the tyranny of ... you know what I mean. At this juncture I must say: made ya squeamish, didn't I? And thanks to JohnKSa for fixing the Kimberpro spam problem. twb

September 23, 2007, 01:59 PM	#18
TWB Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2007 Posts: 145	Whoa, guy, did that last post not soak in to you as rather absurd? When it comes to being a Jedi smartass, I can hold my own. For those that missed the final real post of mine, look back to "oh well, it was worth a try." Personally, I have no idea what a subforum is, but it struck me as the same thing as had already been suggested and rejected. The offer was made and seconded, I simply said yes. Now I'm paranoid that the staff folks will take this nutcake commentary as you did. HEY FOLKS...THIS THREAD WAS DEAD A HALF DOZEN POSTS AGO. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN HAVING FUN WITH IT EVER SINCE THEN. sheesh twb Last edited by TWB; September 23, 2007 at 02:07 PM. Reason: hoping to end this thread

September 23, 2007, 02:26 PM	#20
TWB Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2007 Posts: 145	Ya know, you're right. Nutcake has bizarre protein and apparently, a dash of heavily unreasoned paranoia. Believe me, I did not intend to offend. twb Last edited by TWB; September 23, 2007 at 02:27 PM. Reason: spelling error....yeah, still that compulsive

September 23, 2007, 05:18 PM	#23
fisherman66 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2005 Location: The Woodlands TX Posts: 4,679	I'm glad we've got that Tauri thing behind us. I've never had a bad thing to say about Taurus. Now, Rossi....Sux! __________________ la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!

September 23, 2007, 08:17 PM	#24
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Don't worry TWB, I knew where you were coming from. When you said, "... the obviously flawed logic of some replies, including yours ...", I then knew you were joshing with us because everyone knows I am renowned for my impeccable logic. On a more serious note, and I don't want to put words in fisherman66's mouth, but when he said, "Put the jerks on ignore ...", I'm pretty sure he was talking about the Taurus detractors, not the moderators or other contributors to this thread.

September 23, 2007, 08:40 PM	#25
fisherman66 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2005 Location: The Woodlands TX Posts: 4,679	Roger that Mal __________________ la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!