.28 Nosler vs. 7mm Rem Mag

[Bartholomew Roberts]

So what does .28 Nosler do that 7mm Rem Mag doesn't besides sell a bunch of reloading gear so that you can feed the rifle?

[black mamba]

With the extra case capacity you can shoot a higher BC bullet at higher velocity to give you a slightly flatter trajectory at long range. Here I compared the 7 mag with a Hornady 162 ELD X bullet at 2950 fps versus the 28 Nosler with a Berger 180 VLD at 3050 fps. Sighting is maximum point blank range with a 3" radius.

7 mag Hornady . . 28 Nosler Berger
300 yds. . . - 3" . . . . . . . - 2"
400 yds. . . -14 . . . . . . . -11
500 yds. . . -31 . . . . . . . -27
600 yds. . . -55 . . . . . . . -48

[FITASC]

Then what about the 7mm Weatherby, or the old STW?

[disseminator]

So what does .28 Nosler do that 7mm Rem Mag doesn't besides sell a bunch of reloading gear so that you can feed the rifle?

Burn the barrel throat even faster than a standard 7mmRM.

[std7mag]

Burn about 10gr. more powder for about 100fps.
I looked at the 28Nosler, STW, Dakota, Weatherby, Ultra Mag rounds. Wasn't worth the extra money spent in casings, dies and extra powder burnt to me.

[Scorch]

So what does .28 Nosler do that 7mm Rem Mag doesn't

Throws the same bullet 10% faster. Not that that matters to some people, but for some it does.

Oh, and it burns out barrels even faster. So, for a hunting rifle (20-25 rounds/year), it may only remain accurate for 20 years instead of 40.

[HiBC]

I actually preferred the idea of the 7x61 Sharpes and Hart for its lower case capacity.
The .280 AI shows up for business.

Others disagree,but imo when nearly all the max loads are in the less than 90 % range,I don't look for more case capacity.

I have not checked out the 28 Nosler.What brass does it use? If reloading brass is available at all in 20 years,7mm Rem will be available,as will loaded ammo.

I don't foresee the 28 Nosler becoming mainstream.

[Don Fischer]

You can get Winchester 7mm Rem Mag case's for a lot less than case's for that 28 Nosler. They both shoot the same bullet's and neither can kill an animal any deader than the other. That chart above that compares the Nosler against the Remington shows a 7" advantage for the Nosler. At 600 yds most people can't hold a 7" group so cancel that out! At 300yds there's only a 1" difference, that's no big thing!

But if you want the newest, the Nosler is it. And some of us do dwell on the newest, I had my turn and survived it! My though is that the only reason cartridge's like the 28 Nosler show up in the first place is because so many people thing they need a cartridge that is the fastest if even by only a little! My dog is better than your dog! I think lot's of people shoot and miss at longer ranges, even 300 yds is to much for them but, bring on the new super zapper and their cured of not being able to shoot 500 yds! All these magnum cartridges amaze me. They are not any better than standard cartridge's at ranges that game is normally shot at but everyone know's some day they will go out west and need that 500 yds cartridge, weather they can use it or not. Rant over! :-)

[Mobuck]

"Oh, and it burns out barrels even faster. So, for a hunting rifle (20-25 rounds/year), it may only remain accurate for 20 years instead of 40."

To actually utilize the extra range the 28 Nosler delivers, the user needs to shoot far more than 20-25 rounds per year.
I used to hunt game almost exclusively with a 7mmRM. I shot that rifle quite a lot at ranges well beyond the normal hunters' capabilities in order to make the extra recoil while hunting worthwhile. Sure, I shot some deer at close ranges (normal range for the average shooter) but I didn't hesitate on 400+ yards because I knew the trajectory at those ranges. Hunting with a long range capable rifle demands shooting it enough to understand the ballistics of the round.

[jmr40]

I'd have to be shooting a LOT farther than 400 yards to justify either round. I'd have zero reservations about most common non-magnum rounds capabilities out to 400-500 yards if the shooter is skilled enough to make hits.

I'm not anti-magnum at all. I've had a few and if a hunter has the skills to take advantage of them then they have a place. But they don't start to be an advantage until you get into ranges over 600 yards. If you either don't have the skills or desire to shoot at extreme ranges they are unnecessary. But if you do, then you pay the price of the negatives to get the performance. No matter how small.

The advancements in rifle cartridges, bullets, powder, rifles, and optics comes in small steps. Sometimes it is hard to understand the appeal of new stuff since the improvements are often so small. But after a series of small improvements you end up with enough to matter. If we never attempted to improve things we'd all still be hunting with spears.

I don't have any desire to own either; something in the 7-08 class of cartridges meets my needs. But I'm glad someone is making them for those who do.

[Deaf Smith]

I just use a 24 inch barrel 7mm-08. If I wanted to shoot further I'd just get a laser range finder and make up a shooting table so I knew just how much hold over I needed.

Deaf

[T. O'Heir]

.28 Nosler is one of No$ler's many answers to unasked questions. It doesn't compare to the over priced, excessively recoiling, overrated 7mm Rem Mag though. Sort of. The .28 drives a 175 grain bullet at around 3,000 FPS. A 175 grain 7mm runs about 2800 FPS.
Supposedly runs 30.6 ft-lbs. of recoil out of a 9 pound rifle. Compared to 21.7 ft-lbs. for a 175 grain 7mm Mag.
"...What brass does it use?..." .26 No$ler that started out as a RUM.

[Wyosmith]

As with all the new Nosler cartridges, it's severely over rated and being sold to us by those paid to write about it.

No man is a good long range shooter unless he shoots a lot.
Shooting a lot with rounds that burn out throats in 600 round is very poor economy.
In my opinion the 3 rounds to look at if you want a 7MM are the 7X57, the 280 and the 7-08. None of the 7MM "magnums" I have seen or used do anything in the game field better than a 280. Faster is not always better.

Super long target bullets don't kill well as compared to good well build hunting bullets, so the arguments that come in like an avalanche about
BCs and wind drift, trajectories and so on all have merit ONLY against paper targets. For shooting hunting bullets, a 280, 7X57 or 7-08 will all do fine well past the ability of most hunters. If you want to not be "most hunters" and learn to shoot long distances, you need to shoot a LOT (usually over 2000 rounds and 6000 is better) and the super mags work against you in doing that.
If I were to be told I could not sell it, I would not accept a super 7 in any form as a gift, let alone pay for one. I would take a 7-08 in a flash however.

I am on my 3rd barrel in one of my 270s. I have killed a LOT of game with that gun since I made it when I was a teenager. I have been using that rifle now for 46 years. I know how many rounds I can get from a 270 barrel.
And one 308 too.
And a 375H&H too.

I know what I can get from a rifle as a rule. These barrels I just mentioned were all shot out by me.

I do re-barreling for dozens of customers who also shoot out their throats now and then.

As a full time gunsmith I find myself re-barreling some STWs, Ultra mags and so on fairly often. Several each year, and one man who lives in a town north of me has had me do his 300 Ultra 4 times now in 3 years. He is now talking about a custom rifle in............... (drum roll please).......................... Wait for it..........................

30-06.

He learned slowly, but he's learned.

In politics, engineering, history, math, electronics, building, plumbing or guns...........if theory and facts don't line up......guess which one is wrong.
Buying "new and improved" WILL NOT MAKE YOU A BETTER MARKSMAN AT ANY RANGE.
But shooting a lot with correct form, will. At every range

[Rifletom]

Don Fischer[post #8] and Wyosmith[post #13] said it perfectly. Thank you two!
I went thru a very slight "magnum craze" about 20 years ago. All gone. Two .30-06's, a .270 Win and a mod 94. All I'll ever need.
Shotgun's for the upland stuff.

[Mobuck]

"I just use a 24 inch barrel 7mm-08. If I wanted to shoot further I'd just get a laser range finder and make up a shooting table so I knew just how much hold over I needed."

Off the line a bit BUT. Just "making a shooting table" doesn't account for the biggest IF in long range shooting-- W I N D. The magnum's velocity gains more than just reduced bullet drop, it also cuts the wind drift.

[muzzleblast...]

I've spent some coin on barrels chambered for over bore capacity cartridges... .220 Swift, .25-06AI, .264 Win. Mag., 7mm STW, etc. Maximum muzzle velocity combined with acceptable accuracy was the ultimate objective. The combination was illusive, and once found, proved temporary. ...What I can say, is a bore scope will be a long appreciated and valued initial investment...

[HiBC]

Off the line a bit BUT. Just "making a shooting table" doesn't account for the biggest IF in long range shooting-- W I N D. The magnum's velocity gains more than just reduced bullet drop, it also cuts the wind drift.

I just went to the Hornady site.
Based on their 7mm 162gr SST with a G1 of .550
I ran wind drift at 2900 fps at 1000 yds as 74.6 in
I ran wind drift at 3100 fps at 1000 yds as 67.4 in

wind 10 mph 90 deg.

So ,yes. 2900 fps gives approx. 10% less windage at 1000 yds I agree.

Who can estimate wind to less than 10% at 1000 yds?

We are talking 7 inches total. Hunting conditions. Assuming you have the ranging and ballistic tools and experience to take a game shot at 1000 yds (I do not) how much does that 7 in make? Its 3/4 MOA. Assume 3 clicks.

You still make the same calculation .You still count clicks

You do pay considerably for that 200 fps

[disseminator]

I just went to the Hornady site.
Based on their 7mm 162gr SST with a G1 of .550
I ran wind drift at 2900 fps at 1000 yds as 74.6 in
I ran wind drift at 3100 fps at 1000 yds as 67.4 in

wind 10 mph 90 deg.

So ,yes. 2900 fps gives approx. 10% less windage at 1000 yds I agree.

Who can estimate wind to less than 10% at 1000 yds?

We are talking 7 inches total. Hunting conditions. Assuming you have the ranging and ballistic tools and experience to take a game shot at 1000 yds (I do not) how much does that 7 in make? Its 3/4 MOA. Assume 3 clicks.

You still make the same calculation .You still count clicks

You do pay considerably for that 200 fps

First, your not gonna get 2900 fps from a 7mm08 with a 24" barrel, I know that as I shoot a 7mm08 with max loads a 160 AccuBond will get around 2780 in my 25" Shilen barreled 700.

That same bullet leaves my 26" Model 70 (7mmRM) at 3200 feet per second.

That is more than 200 feet if my math is right.

Whether or not a person NEEDS a magnum is debatable but let's not act like there's no difference here.

[truck driver]

Interesting debate. I do own 2 magnum rifles a 7mmRem and a 338Wm. Both of which I bought used and on the cheap side ($350), plastic factory stocks and all. I then placed them in good carbon based synthetic stocks too get the most of the accuracy out of them they could produce for less money then buying the high end new factory models that I would still have to tweak to get what I want out of them.
Both were bought for a purpose and that was to hunt Elk. Yes I could have done it with my 30-06 but I wanted an edge and a little more horse power. I have never had to track a White tail deer after being shot with my 30-06 but then a Elk isn't a deer either.
Funny how I sort of lost some respect for the 7mmRem after I started shooting it and reloading for it. It is a nice accurate rifle but all the hype just isn't there that has been written about it. The 338Wm that's a different horse all together pushing bigger bullets at a acceptable velocity but not over powering.
I also have a 35Whelen/AI that is impressive but I found a problem with it and don't trust it to take on a expensive hunting trip.
Out of a whim I had J.E.S. rebore and chamber a M70 and have found chips out of the bore or pits in the barrel and wondering if the barrel has some manufacturing flaws. This barrel will shoot 3/4" groups at 100yds with 225gr Nosler Partitions and under 1/2" with 200gr Nosler ABs with less recoil then the 338Wm and only a little slower.
Now to get back on the subject of the Big 7mms I was originally looking for a 280 Rem and will more then likely send the 7mm Rem packing when I find what I want or have a new bolt fitted to the 7mmRem and a new barrel since I like my M70 actions which are push feed and have it chambered for the 280/AI which delivers both velocity and accuracy for what I want to do.

[HiBC]

Diseminator:

First, your not gonna get 2900 fps from a 7mm08 with a 24" barrel, I know that as I shoot a 7mm08 with max loads a 160 AccuBond will get around 2780 in my 25" Shilen barreled 700.

That same bullet leaves my 26" Model 70 (7mmRM) at 3200 feet per second.

That is more than 200 feet if my math is right

My sincere apologies for not knowing what my post was supposed to be about! Silly me! I started with the OP,7mm Rem vs 28 Nos. And,I succumbed to general comments about a 200 fps difference.

I did not know I was supposed to be writing about the 7mm-08. Now,I'm not getting paid for my time,and I want to compare apples to apples.I assume everybody knows more bbl length = more vel. But have you heard of "isolate one variable"? Its a science thing.All my data is for 24 in bbl.

I went to Hogdons site.I chose the 162 gr bullet for all cartridges.

I selected the highest vel max load for all cartridges.

I know YOUR m-70 with the 26 in bbl 7mm mag is special and it shoots 160 gr bullets at 3200 fps. Got it. No doubt in my mind.

The best those donkeys (and the lawyers) at Hogdon could do with a7mm Rem and a 162 gr bullet is 2953 fps! To be fair,they only got 2725 with the 7mm-08,and 3195 with the 28 Nos

So I ran the 10 mph 1000 yd wind numbers

7mm-08 : 82 in drift,7.8 MOA

7mm Rem Mag:72.5 in drift,6.9 MOA

28 Nos 64.4 in drift,6.1 MOA

So,at 1000 yds,7-08 vs 7mm Rem mag, drift is approx 7 ft vs 6 feet. OK. Got it. 7-08 vs 28 Nos,its (drumroll) a foot and a half. At 1000 yds.

I still have to estimate the wind. I make no claim I can estimate wind to + or - 15 % at 1000 yds. (the difference in drift is about 15%)
Once I make my estimate,for 1000 yd shooting,I assume we adjust sights vs Kentucky. Assuming 1/4 minute clicks,7mm Rem Mag vs 7mm-08 amounts to counting 4 clicks. if we are only considering wind and leveling the playing field with barrel lengths and published max loads.

I do not deny there is a difference. Get real with the numbers,and I have to look at return on investment. A 7mm-08 will be a lighter,handier hunting rifle. That makes me a more mobile,effective hunter.I can get closer.BONUS!! I don't need an astronomical scope.

My ammo is cheaper,my barrel lasts longer. I can shoot more. I'm a better shot.

Less recoil,I'm a better shot.

But I DO have a 7mm Rem Mag Win M-70 Laredo. Coyote rifle.

Never used it on a deer,elk,or hunting antelope. I have used my fake 1903A-4 with a 2.5 x scope. Takes antelope just fine at my hunting ranges.

[truck driver]

What was the load that produced 3200fps from a 26" barrel M70 with the 160gr AB in a 7mm Rem? I have a 26" barreled M70 7mm Rem and would like to try and duplicate that same load in my rifle. So far the most velocity I can get is 3100fps.

[HiBC]

I can't tell you because I don't get that velocity with my rifle. I settle for 3050.
Its a 26 in bbl.

[disseminator]

HiBC: My comments weren't meant to be snarky or argumentative, apologies if it seemed as such.

My impression of your comment was that you believe there is little or no difference between the 7mmRM and the smaller 7mm-08. Admittedly the conversation has drifted a little off topic so sorry for the confusion.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

My load for the 160 Accubond is as follows, please keep in mind that it's not a book load and my Model 70 has a fairly large chamber. I use Norma Brass and after fireforming it measures 88.2 grains of H20. That is about six grains more than stock so take heed to make a note of it!

I seat the bullet to 3.36" COAL which is .020" off the lands as recommended by Nosler in their manual. I have reached 3200 with two powders: vvN570 and RETUMBO.

The vvN570 is a bit too slow for a 160 I think, near to 3200 I got splattered primers so 86 that one. The RETUMBO works better and no pressure signs as of yet. YMMV.

I am loading to 79.6g at this time. Powder lots vary so all caution etc....

[truck driver]

Originally Posted by disseminator

HiBC: My comments weren't meant to be snarky or argumentative, apologies if it seemed as such.

My impression of your comment was that you believe there is little or no difference between the 7mmRM and the smaller 7mm-08. Admittedly the conversation has drifted a little off topic so sorry for the confusion.



My load for the 160 Accubond is as follows, please keep in mind that it's not a book load and my Model 70 has a fairly large chamber. I use Norma Brass and after fireforming it measures 88.2 grains of H20. That is about six grains more than stock so take heed to make a note of it!

I seat the bullet to 3.36" COAL which is .020" off the lands as recommended by Nosler in their manual. I have reached 3200 with two powders: vvN570 and RETUMBO.

The vvN570 is a bit too slow for a 160 I think, near to 3200 I got splattered primers so 86 that one. The RETUMBO works better and no pressure signs as of yet. YMMV.

I am loading to 79.6g at this time. Powder lots vary so all caution etc....

That is more then I want to try out of mine.

[old roper]

disseminator,

I have some new Norma 7mag brass and H20 capacity is 85.5gr. Nosler max load for 7mag with 160gr AB is 3077fps. Nosler manual 7/8 used same tested O.A.C.L @ 3.290" for the 160gr AB in 7mag.

Your COAL @ 3.360" is same as Nosler data for 7 WbyMag and Retumbo max load for 160gr AB is 79.5gr Retumbo @ 3189fps. I know the Wby has lot of freebore but your case capacity is close to the Wby, almost sounds like you to have Wby without the freebore.