Can extra clip lead to trouble?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's the point - what's righteous?

1. You get into driving argument. You are a little guy - a big guy comes up to your car and punches the daylight out of you. You are seriously injured - so you shoot. Righteous or went to trial?

2. Someone is breaking into your car, you follow him on the advice of 9-11 dispatcher. The bad guy turns on you. You fire - righteous or went to trial?

3. You have an argument with your tenant. You go over to collect money or discuss the situation. He jumps you. You were OCing (your God given right). You fire twice, get knocked over and fire again. Righteous or premeditated murder?

4. You get out of your car to see a street sign because you are following a kid that you decide is funky. A negative interaction occurs, you claim you are being beaten. Righteous or you go to trial after much public uproar?

Righteous shoot - total BS as you cannot determine before what you will be in.

[Skans]

To me, carrying an extra loaded 8 round magazine is probably less of an issue than the following:

Expensive custom grips;
Lightened trigger;
Fancy engraving;
extended magazine
laser
compensator
anything gold plated
anything more powerful than .357 magnum

You get the drift - an extra loaded magazine can be explained a number of ways - now, if your extra magazine holds 20 rounds, that might be an issue, I don't know.

[Dan F]

Discussions like these are what convinced me to become a member of the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network.

Not only may you need a lawyer, regardless of how hard you try to be "righteous", but you may need expert witnesses, etc. And of course, $$ for it all. It just seemed reasonable to add the insurance to the "plan": tools, training, situational awareness, etc.

I keep thinking about the line from "True Grit" - "She draws [lawyer Daggett] like a gun!"

[jeager106]

Aw com' on now. Perhaps the best thing to do if you carry is to load only with factory full metal jackets, & NO spare ammo.
You could really be safe and carry just one bullet in your shirt pocket.
Never carry any firearm that has "magnum" as part of the caliber, might get you indicted for homocide you know.
Listen: I was a cop in a very, very, nasty, mid sized city that ranked (F.B.I. stats) in the top 10 violent crime cities in the State of Ohio every year.
I was injured 13 times that required med attention.
I was disabled with 22.5 yrs service. I don't remember ONE time in which a citizen shot anyone committing a crime, even when that someone SHOULD have!
I only was in 3 gunfights & never shot anyone, (thank gawd) tho my sgt. did and suffered awful for it tho it was a clean shoot. (the law suit)
We had plenty of shootings but all criminals against criminals or flat out murders.
Citizens shooting offenders is very, very, rare. Perhaps too rare.
The only cases I can remember that happend in other places in which a citizen was taken to task for the shoot it was a very questionable shoot indeed.
Like the Fish case I'm sure most here remember. Fish killed a metal patient for "shouting" and having barking dogs.
I followed that one closely.
The very real threat comes from a almost sure civil suit filed by some dead gobblins survivors. THAT is a problem.
I used to teach "surviving the aftermath" about what to do & say after a shoot.
I learned a lot from Ed Neuwikie (sp?) & Mass Ayoob about court room survival among other important tactical stuff back when tactical wasn't the over used term it is today.
I don't see enough aftermath survival being taught anymore unless some tactical training centers do it as part of the program.
If one is worried about the loads, the amount of ammo that can or should or should not be carried then perhaps not carrying is the best possible route?
Hey. I'm not trying to ruffle anyone feathers, or pee in someones Wheaties but some need to get realistic and look at the facts not the suppositions.
One could ask "what if I shoot a gobblin & it comes out I was using Cor-Bon ammo that is billed as "hi-powered" ammo?
What happens if I shoot a gobllin 2 X?
And on and on.
Boy I'm gonna catch it now ain't I?
Go ahead & speak your mind as I have a thick skin, I'm all grown up and can take whatever you want to dish out.

Dan F said this right, spot on!
"Discussions like these are what convinced me to become a member of the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network."

[Tom Servo]

Aw com' on now. Perhaps the best thing to do if you carry is to load only with factory full metal jackets, & NO spare ammo.

That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is this: if someone has to take a human life, there's a chance the investigating authority will find the motives or actions to be in doubt. If that's the case, it's possible that any aspect of the situation will come into question. That could include having the oh-so-trendy Punisher logo on the grips, using gimmicky ammunition, or having more than X number of rounds on hand.

There are a lot of folks out there who think they can shoot if this condition or that are met, and that's the end of the story. In practice, that could very well not be the case. Folks can do as they like in terms of hardware and loadout, but to say it absolutely, positively won't affect the outcome is foolish.

[Spats McGee]

My line of thought: Prepare for the legal fight the same way you would for a gunfight. Take as many variables out of the equation* as you can, and never, ever spot your opponent any points.

Extra magazine? Reasonable and easily explained.
Night sights? Reasonable and easily explained.
Beavertail safety? Reasonable and easily explained.
Death's Head engraved on the slide? Not so much.

* = There are a LOT of variables, and only so many for which one can control. Sometimes, you just have to balance risk vs. reward.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Spats McGee

My line of thought: Prepare for the legal fight the same way you would for a gunfight. Take as many variables out of the equation* as you can, and never, ever spot your opponent any points....

I agree. And another dimension is to consider what advantage something give you and balance that against the risks.

Training, good sights, quality JHP ammunition, an extra magazine all can be of real help in a violent encounter. Punisher grips or other similar embellishments won't help you one bit on the street.

[jtmckinney]

So you have to defend yourself and use a firearm that is stock with none of the accessories like the punisher grips or death logo on the frame but you have a firearm or two in your inventory that you only use at the range with your buddies that does have some of these features or extended mags or whatever.

Could just having firearms with these features come into play?

Thanks in advance.
James

[Skans]

.... but you have a firearm or two in your inventory that you only use at the range with your buddies that does have some of these features or extended mags or whatever.

Could just having firearms with these features come into play?

Any such firearms, if I had them, would be locked up in a safe. No one is getting into that safe without a break order from the court and a knock-down-drag-out fight from my attorney. And, I would never give anyone any reason to validate getting a break order to open my safe in the first place. However, even if some lunatic judge signed off on a break order, there is nothing in my safe that is illegal, and thus couldn't be used in any trial against me. Dragging in evidence about "death-head" grips locked away in a safe has about as much relevance to a shooting as dragging in your 2nd Grade classmate that says you punched him first for cutting in line. In other words, generally speaking the prosecutor can huff and puff all he wants, but he ain't going to be able to use legally owned stuff locked away somewhere in your house against you. Now, if the person you shot was a Hindu and you have a bunch of anti-Hindu flags tucked away that ties you to a terrorist group that targets Hindus for harm, then you might be toast.

[44 AMP]

If it comes down to it where the prosecutor is trying to prove what kind of person you are (and have been), then anything you own, and anything you have said, or done, ever, is grist for their mill.

Now, how much traction a specific piece of "evidence" gets depends on a lot of things, including how well your lawyer can/will debunk the implied character assault.

Lets say you have an interest in historically important documents, and have copies of the US Constitution, the Magna Carta, Mao's Little red book, Mein Kampf, the Bible, the Koran, and the Torah in your collection.

Which ONE of those do you think the prosecutor will focus on, if they are trying to paint you as an extremist of some stripe?

What simply may be gallows humor to some folks is clear evidence of a disturbed mind to others.

As someone once observed (Mark Twain, I think) "a jury is twelve people chosen to decide which side has the better liar.."

[JimDandy]

Which ONE of those do you think the prosecutor will focus on, if they are trying to paint you as an extremist of some stripe?

Sadly, in this day and age, it's least likely to be Mein Kampf or Mao's Little Red Book.

Another aspect we're glossing over, is what's easily explained here, isn't easily explained there. Having a Stars And Bars motif license plate holder in Mississippi probably is easily explained, as its a significant portion of their state flag. That same Mississippi resident in New York City, even explaining it's the State Flag would likely find it much harder to easily explain it.

Heck there are places where hollow point ammunition isn't easily explained even though most of the people who know what's what wouldn't blink an eye at the explanation on why it's better in self defense as regards over-penetration, and so on.

[Skans]

If it comes down to it where the prosecutor is trying to prove what kind of person you are (and have been), then anything you own... is grist for their mill.

I do not believe that would past muster as far as what the rules of evidence says a prosecutor can and cannot present as character evidence. Using some legally owned object locked away in your home that has nothing to do with a shooting, (such as punisher grips on the 1911 in your safe) will be completely out of bounds. You might as well try to hang someone for a shooting because they own a red sports car, an antique dagger, or a mechanical adding machine.

[Spats McGee]

Originally Posted by Skans

. . . .Dragging in evidence about "death-head" grips locked away in a safe has about as much relevance to a shooting as dragging in your 2nd Grade classmate that says you punched him first for cutting in line. . . .

On the death's head grips on a pistol in your safe, I would (mostly) agree. If they're on your carry weapon, that's a different story.

Let's also bear in mind that it's not just about what the prosecutor says at trial. If your carry weapon has death's head grips, or is engraved with "watch for flash" around the barrel, or some such, then you can reasonably expect pictures of same to be displayed to the jury. Even if the prosecutor never says a word about it, it's there for the jury to see, and may affect the jury's perception of the shooter.

[Oruglock]

If it comes down to it where the prosecutor is trying to prove what kind of person you are (and have been), then anything you own, and anything you have said, or done, ever, is grist for their mill.

Quite.

Recently someone came NGF on to say they'd had their first handgun purchase delayed, and did any of us think they might be refused? In the same post they admitted to having a DUI charge against them within the last year.

I pointed out this might be a problem, and was called judgemental.

If you haven't lived a completely upright and honest life (i.e. have never been in trouble with the Police), you should expect it to come back and bite you in the behind sooner or later. That's the way the world works, judgemental or not.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Skans

I do not believe that would past muster as far as what the rules of evidence says a prosecutor can and cannot present as character evidence. Using some legally owned object locked away in your home that has nothing to do with a shooting, (such as punisher grips on the 1911 in your safe) will be completely out of bounds....

While that might very possibly be the case, these sort of categorical statements simply are not absolutely true.

If you wind up in court, everything in your world is potentially evidence (including your posts on Internet forums and in other social media). Whether something is actual, admissible evidence, and what it can be used as evidence of, will depend on the circumstances. Unless you're clairvoyant, you just can't know for sure.

Consider that if you're on trial in connection with your use of force, and you are claiming self defense, your state of mind, perception and character could be issues. And you will have the burden of producing evidence to support your claim of justification. Whatever evidence you put on in support of your claim opens the door to the prosecution to put on evidence rebutting your claim.

How far the prosecutor can go in that regard depends on the how you make your case. But one can't a priori rule anything completely out.

[44 AMP]

Of course, its judgmental, that's what courts do.

They are going to make a judgment on you, and your actions, the law, and how they all relate together. They are going to be told one story by the prosecution, another by the defense, and rendering a verdict. That is a judgment, plain and simple.

If they are convinced that you are a loathsome individual, there is a strong tendency to believe you did commit the criminal act in question. It may not be true, you may be innocent, but if you "look" guilty, to the jury, often they will find you so.

Self defense is a much different situation than most criminal matters. In most criminal matters, the defense is "my client didn't do it, and here's why"...

In Self Defense matters, the defense is "my client did it, and it's justified because...."

Quite different.

[Aguila Blanca]

I would cite the mall shooting in Salt lake CitY (?), Utah a few years ago. Shooter was initially engaged and pinned down by an off-duty police officer from another jurisdiction, who just happened to be there shopping with his wife.

The officer commented afterward that he was sorry his Kimber only held 7 rounds and that he didn't have a spare magazine. The majority of self defense encounters may be resolved with five or fewer rounds fired, but we can't rely on that.

[JimDandy]

I gather that that Ayoob fellow can be controversial on some of these boards, but what he's said has often made sense to me.

Hand a LEO that pulls you over your license, and your carry permit if you're carrying. Don't ever say "gun" out loud.

If someone knocks on your door late at night, don't open it, answer from a distance and move around between answers so they can't locate you by your voice.

Find out what the local LEO's carry and emulate them.

[jimbob86]

That depends on those 'peers' in that jury. Any prosecutor worth anything would do exactly this (frame the carrier of an extra magazine as "looking for trouble".

That depends upon the locale, does it not?

If our County Attourney did that to someone generally viewed as an upstanding citizen defending himself, he'd lose his job come the next election, if not sooner .....