Triple 7 FFFG vs pyro des P vs GOEX FFFg

[DavidB2]

Just curious at to whether Triiple 7 FFFg is more efficient than Pyrodex P since GOEX black powder is so hard to find? I have heard that Triple 7 is more powerful than either Pyrodex or black powder.

[Doc Hoy]

I made a mistake of loading some .45 Long Colt rounds with a boat load of Triple 7.

I think I recall chronying these rounds up toward 900 FPS in a five and a half inch barrel revolver. 230 Grain cast bullet at a BHN of somewhere around 13.

Kicks like a mule. Pistol gets hot real quick. I did not notice any over-pressure signs on the spent brass.

This is bad practice. The cannisters of Triple Seven used to be marked with a caution not to use it in BP cartridges. I did not know that when I loaded those rounds. I pulled about 400 rounds apart because I felt they were too hot to shoot in revolvers. I just shot up the last of them today in a 73 Winchester. They are very consistent rounds and I am ready to declare that under different circumstances it is a sweet load. Some bullets in the same hole at 25 yards. Last shot was a bottle cap at 12 yards. But it is more dangerous than I am prepared to tolerate. I think they are safe in the Winchester clones that I have (66, 73, and 92). They would probably be okay in a Taylor's Spencer (a rifle I don't own but would be happy if someone cared to donate one to my poverty stricken cause.)

The cannister of T7 that I used was not marked with the caution but the words of other more seasoned shooters in this forum convinced me to take action to reduce the danger. I used the Triple 7 thus provided (from the dismantled ammunition) to reload a more reasonable combination with some cornmeal on top.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

When in doubt, it is always a good idea to see what the manufacturer has to say. Note the statement about 15% more powerful, and note that Hodgdon does not recommend FFFg in cartridges, only FFg.

https://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

[Chowmif16]

when I was active duty Air Force I used to struggle to find black powder every 3 years when I moved to another city. I have recently found that you can buy it in bulk online. I bought 25 pounds a few years ago and still have quite a bit left.
I will confess that the snobbery comes in when I think of substitute powders such as pyrodex and triple 7 etc. I have had less than satisfactory experiences with them in muzzleloaders when I thought that I could not get real BP.
With the advent of online ordering of real BP, I refuse to go back to the substitutes. Part of it is historical accuracy for me, and part of it is a result of past experience with the poor ignition quality of substitutes. No doubt that several posters will disagree with me on that opinion. I happen to think that if you are going to shoot muzzleloaders or BP cartridge, then you ought to go whole hog and use real black powder. Again, you might not get it from your local gun store, but TOTW sells it along with several other places online.
The point of my post is that black powder is indeed available, and I find it to give me the best results in everything from my flintlock to my .45 Colt revolvers and lever guns.
This ends my rant about fake black powder, thank you

[Doc Hoy]

Your post is well placed.

I was looking through my staff and found that I have a little GOEX left from previous loadings. About half a pound.

I vow I will not start making home brew BP.

[rodwhaincamo]

Let's take a close look at exactly what Hodgdon's says about their product as there has been misinformation spouted for quite some time as people have apparently read into what they've stated.

Let's start with the need to reduce the load by 15%. Many claim this is for safety as it would be dangerous to load with max charges. Here is what they say:

"Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%."

Where does it say "dangerous?" Does it not say they are offering hunters a higher energy product when used in the SAME volume as BP? Does it not say the reason to reduce the load is to achieve the ballistics of BP and not because it is dangerous? And then to really throw things what of it co pared to Swiss or Olde E? T7 gives similar velocities with the same volume. Does that then mean Swiss and Olde E loads should be reduced too as they certainly leave Goex and the others far behind. Nowhere does it say reduce the loads for safety.

Here's a fellow who researched Civil War paper cartridges. Guess what Hazard's Pistol Powders used? Granulation a of 4F with the power level of Swiss. He gave permission to pass his research on so I downloaded it. I'll happily email it to anyone curious.

The other bit of misinformation I've often seen has to do with compression. This is what they say:

"Triple Seven In Cartridges: Use data specifically developed for Triple Seven FFG only. Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this pamphlet. You may safely use a card or polyethylene wad up to .030" in thickness to protect the base of the bullet. Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder. Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property. Do not create loads for cartridges not listed. Contact Hodgdon Powder Company for recommendations concerning other loads."

Note this is for cartridges. This is what they have to say about any other use:

"Seat the projectile firmly against the powder . Make sure that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile."

Notice how it went from minor compression to firmly seated? I've emailed them a few times asking for clarification, but they never responded. But "firmly" is obviously more than the minimal compression used in cartridge loading. They certainly made it clear heavy compression in a cartridge could be dangerous, but said nothing about the rest. They wouldn't only cover just one butt cheek, right?

I compress my T7 loads fairly heavy as I do with my Olde E. I use the same volume and get the same groups and POI with both. Some say they notice erratic shots and pressure spikes. I'm curious how they measured these pressure spikes. My groups don't reflect this as pressures alter velocity which alters groups. Maybe they have Hulk Hogan seating their projectiles.

[kwhi43]

I agree with Chowmif16

[45 Dragoon]

Well, if you're going to handgun hunt, trip 7 is probably the best powder to use.
I know a fellow that hunts with a Walker and I think you should use the best equipment possible if you are going to harvest an animal humanely. Especially if you are using a Blk Powder revolver.
I set this Walker up to take full house trip 7 loads and as far as this guy is concerned, its meat in the freezer. He's not target practicing.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[g.willikers]

I switched to Triple Seven due to the lack of BP around here and to get away from the smell and dirty looks from the smokeless crowd.
It's by far the cleanest burning and gun cleaning can wait until I get home.
It works so well that it's all I use now.
Thanks Hodgdon.

[Fingers McGee]

FFG T7 seems to be a favorite door prize at many Cowboy action matches. In the last few years at major matches I have managed to acquire around 10 lbs of it. I use it in 44-40 cartridges fro my '66 and '73 rifles, as well as in my .38 conversion pistols. Following Hodgdon's instructions, I fill the cases to a point here the bullet I am using just rests on the powder. Works great and is easy to clean.

[Doc Hoy]

Rod's comments on the stuff on Hodgdon's website were very useful and without trying to put words in his mouth, it appears he and I both were suffering from the same minor lack of understanding because of some ambiguities.

When I loaded those .45 LC rounds with what was 35 grains of Triple 7 FFFg, I came back from the range with some fairly stunning results which I mentioned on the forum at the time (Probly 18 months ago.)

Several forum members cautioned me that the rounds were likely unsafe because they had the potential to develop too much pressure. They spoke of warning on the label of the canister which addressed Triple 7 FFFg in cartridges being dangerous because of the over pressure potential. I looked at my canister (which I no longer have). It stated that FFFg was not intended for use in cartridges but it did not say anything about over pressure, or danger, or the end of the world as we know it.

I took the guys at their word and downloaded most of the FFFg cartridges. But at the same time I put a call in to the Hodgdon Tech support folks. I got hold of a guy who appeared to be a little under-briefed on black powder and subs but he did confirm that the reason to avoid FFFg in cartridges had to do with over pressure and the creation of a dangerous situation.

Rod gave us the caution from the Hodgdon site which I was unable to find 18 months ago but see it very clearly now. I read it. It created some questions and so I called Hodgdon again. This time I spoke with a guy whl also needed a little help with BP and subs but he was at least willing to own what he said.

His words:

Triple 7 FFFg is never to be used in cartridges because of the danger created by the over pressure situation.

Hodgdon recommends against granular fillers of any kind because of the possibility that the filler will settle (remember, Hodgdon recommend only light compression) leaving an air gap.

The Hodgdon caution says

Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this pamphlet. You may safely use a card or polyethylene wad up to .030" in thickness to protect the base of the bullet. Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100"

To me this means that you can't change the load of Triple 7 FFg in a cartridge. I asked that question to the Tech guy and he confirmed that you should not lighten the load because there is no way to fill the gap between the top of the powder and the bottom of the bullet.
(Maximum .03 wad, maximum .1 inch compression.) Only way to reduce the powder charge is to use a longer bullet or reduce COAL. So even my 28 grain .45LCs with filler should be pulled apart.

I went on to ask the guy about compression. He confirmed that the best performance of Triple 7 FFg or FFFg is when the pullet just rests on top of the powder so as to avoid an air gap. He recommended a maximum compression of .1 inch.

He said Pyrodex should not be compressed more than 1/8th inch with best being 1/16th.

Pyrodex can be loaded at less than full capacity as long as the air gap is not filled with granular filler. Has to be a solid wad.

This information was retrieved from the Tech Service number at Hodgdon from a guy named Mike at 11:20 today.

[g.willikers]

What does that mean for cap and ball revolvers?
It's pretty hard to avoid compressing the powder when the ball is being seated with muscle power, directly into the cylinder chambers.
The only precaution maybe is to be conservative with the amount of powder.

[Doc Hoy]

That discourages Triple 7 in cap and ball revolvers. FFg or FFFg

[g.willikers]

That's all I use in my trusty Remington.
Usually FF because that's mostly what the stores stock.
But not so much of it.
25 grains, and so far there's been no problem, even though at least some of those loads had to be compressed quite a bit.
About the only way to avoid it maybe would be to use an out of the gun loader with calibrations on it, to know how far to be able to consistently load the balls.
But I ain't got one.

[foolzrushn]

Well, I think that I see a problem with trying to eliminate 'ball jump', and yet using a reduced load for best accuracy with Pyrodex or T7. I wonder if 'no granular fillers wouldn't apply to BP as well...had the tech been asked? Is this one of those blanket lawyer statements? It seems to me that both techs just read the 'company line' without much new. Understandable. Maybe this is something that some will choose to ignore.

With cap and ball, usually, you load shortly before firing. With a cartridge I could see possibly more handling causing the filler to settle more.

So which settles less, Cream of Wheat or cornmeal?

[rodwhaincamo]

I've not heard that filler wasn't safe in a cap n ball, but if it's a potential problem in a cartridge it may not be a good idea. But then my understanding about cartridges and compression is due to the crimp, but I can't say I know this.

I've considered a wad as filler of some sort, though it may not actually bring it up to the mouth unless 2 or 3 were used. I do punch my own so they aren't expensive...

[Chowmif16]

Rhowdwhaincamo,
Just to be clear, the discussion about fillers is related to Triple7 and not necessarily black powder. You may have figured that out, but I just thought I would clarify.
Real BP loves a bit of compression, and rule #1 is no air gap. Most of the fillers people use in cartridge or cap n ball will compress and prevent any airspace, although they might not contribute to powder compression. As an example, I used to use cornmeal as a filler in my cap and ball revolvers. I never really cared how much I used because it was so compressible. Don't know how much it then created powder compression. I now use homemade lubed wads which I am very happy with. There is also the question of how much compression they impart on the powder column. However, I think that the results are more consistent because I use the same wads and the same powder charge every time. The variable is the force I use on the seating lever of the gun.
Anyway, this all leads me back to my original assertion that real BP is the way to go, and that it is not as hard to find as many would think. The only inhibitor to using real BP is the initial financial outlay, as most places will only ship it in bulk. If you are an avid shooter, this is not a problem over time.
My other reason, is that for other than cartridge reloading, I have found all of the substitutes to have ignition problems in anything but cartridges. Since I shoot both cap and ball and .45 Colt in BP, I have simplified things by only using BP. I realize that this may come across as snobbery, but for me it is a simple matter of what works best in all I do combined with a desire to experience what the folks did in the 1800's. For me, that is worth the price of the real stuff.
Respectfully, Chowmi

[Doc Hoy]

1. Doesn't some of this fly in the face of a lot of contemporary wisdom?

People have been using cornmeal fillers since kitty was a cat. This is the first time I am reading about it in cartridges as a bad thing.

2. Just what is the pressure?

While I am not smart enough to dispute the claim of over pressure, I haven't seen or read any actual pressure values. Hodgdon doesn't have them.

3. And how about the logic of the actual pressures?

If T7 is 15% more potent than Goex, does that 15% logically convert to more pressure but not to over pressure? (I do acknowledge there is more to the physics than just the 15% additional power.)

I don't want to leave anyone with the impression that I intend to start using T7 FFFg in cartridges with reckless abandon. And I am the last person in the world who would recommend it to others.

But is it possible that the cautions that Hodgdon is publishing have less to do with actual danger and more to do with their general council?

Has anyone seen or read any actual pressure numbers that exceed safe limits of a good condition .45LC revolver? (The first time I spoke to Hodgdon 18 months ago the guy said that pressure was a problem only in large caliber cartridges when fired in revolvers. I specifically mentioned .45LC and .44 Magnum because those are the two large calibers I shoot. He said it was okay in .38/357 rounds.)

Is there any evidence whatsoever of an instance of a pistol failing because of over pressure from the use of T7 FFFg? Has anyone seen it happen? Has anyone read of it happening in a credible article? Has anyone heard a credible live witness account?

Please understand....I am not saying we are being sold a bill of goods.

[Chowmif16]

Excellent question Doc.
I wonder if there might be loading tables with the CUP pressure for cartridges with triple7 as you would normally see with other powders. Of course, they would not include reduced loads with filler because no company ever publishes that sort of data.

[Chowmif16]

Just realized, you asked the same question as me.
RTFQ.....

[Doc Hoy]

...I never read other posts.

I just run off at the mouth (fingertips)

.

.... ;o)

[rodwhaincamo]

My filler comment was concerning the use of T7.

[g.willikers]

Toilet paper for filler?
That's all I used in small loads for big cases to keep the powder from wandering around, which supposedly can cause odd happenings.
It always seemed to work well.

Black powder might be authentic, but it smells awful and is filthy as compared to 777.
Betcha' if the old timers had the choice in the olden days, they just might have gotten real fond of that new fangled stuff, too.

[Chowmif16]

I fear I might get a reputation for the less than occasional rant here, but this topic has just got me going lately....
G Willikers, I hear your point about the smelly black powder and the "what if they had triple7 available" etc. but it is not a logical argument.
first off, strangely, I love the smell of black powder so that isn't a minus for me.
Second, if you want to argue that they would have used substitute powders if they were available, then you might as well carry that forward and say that they also would have used a Colt model 1911 or even further that they would have used a Glock.
We are not in the single action hobby for it's ease and point and shoot. We are in it because it is wonderful to do a bit of living history and it is a challenge.
At least, that's why I do it.
End of second rant.

P.S.
I love the idea of toilet roll as a filler. Might have to try it.
Might make the missus wonder where all the TP has gone...

[foolzrushn]

I don't think I like the smell of sulfur.....makes me think of where I might be going!