Controlling Neck Tension

Crazywader · July 20, 2013, 08:05 PM

Started preparing some new brass for .223 WSSM. After FL resizing, I checked the neck inside diameter - consistently measuring 0.218" - or 0.006 less than the bullet I'll be seating (0.224"). The expander ball that originally shipped with the die (RCBS standard FL die) measured exactly .218.

Called RCBS and explained that I thought 0.006 was more than what I wanted (would prefer .002-.003 of tension). They sent me a new expander ball that measured 0.224. I believe brass will flex back after the expander ball passes through it so I expect to see an inside diameter of about .222 or slight less. I double checked to ensure when I pulled the expander ball through the neck it was AFTER the brass had already been sized by the die. Checked the inside diameter and it was still exactly .218.

I understand that the die is supposed to control the tension (hence buying a set of bushings) however, I don't understand why - if the expander ball is the last thing to touch the neck - why isn't the inside diameter wider than .218? I can't believe that the brass is flexing back that much - I haven't turned them yet. Should I?

I'm thinking of ordering a Reading or Foster die that I can change the bushings. But, I prefer to understand what's going on first. Should I send the die back to RCBS?

Thanks,

Crazywader

Jimro · July 21, 2013, 01:56 AM

Before you get all crazy with the neck tension, load up a few and shoot them.

You don't measure tension in fractions of an inch, you measure tension with some form of energy such as "foot pounds" and right now you don't know how much tension you actually have. What you do know is that you have more than enough dimensional difference to keep your bullets in place.

The other thing you can do to preven brass spring back is to anneal your necks.

Jimro

603Country · July 21, 2013, 12:10 PM

You could just order the Lee Collet Die. It's not expensive and it sure made a believer out of me. I've got all sorts of 223 dies (RCBS - std and neck, Redding - bushing and not) and I get best groups with the Lee Collet Die.

243winxb · July 21, 2013, 07:04 PM

FL size a case using the expander. Measure the outside diameter of the neck. Seat a bullet and measure the neck again. The neck should expand .002" or slightly more for good neck tension. If expanding a lot more, than i would go to bushing dies. I know in other cartridges i checked, the FL die always over sizes the necks. But i cant see you getting more than .001" brass spring back.

F. Guffey · July 22, 2013, 07:58 AM

I never got into ‘neck tension’, all I have managed to accomplish in my efforts is to cause rleoaders to find another word that comes close to describing bullet hold with out calling ‘it’ bullet hold. I can measure bullet hold in pounds, neck tension is measured in tension, I have strain gages, deflection gages etc., no tension gages, unless we are talking about tension as in a cable, I have one of those, works on air craft control cables, big musical instrument strings etc..

Bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get. Loose bullets in the neck of a case as in ‘not much bullet hold’ is a problem for reloaders that do not know the difference between the diameter of the neck in the chamber and the outside diameter of the case neck.

I know, bench resters, it is suggested all reloaders should do it like bench resters. Not easy to take the short cut, load like a bench rester with out a bench type rifle.

F. Guffey

243winxb · July 23, 2013, 09:10 AM

Crazywader Last Activity: July 20, 2013 09:07 PM He spent 2 minutes on site and never came back.

reynolds357 · July 23, 2013, 11:09 AM

Crazy Wader, I have never known anyone to use an expander ball with bushing dies. None of my bushing dies have an expander.
When using bushing dies, to have any real consistency, you will have to turn the necks. Sometimes you can get by without having to turn Norma and Lapua, but everything else is about 100% guaranteed to have to be turned.

old roper · July 23, 2013, 03:38 PM

Reynolds357, Guess you don't own any Redding bushing dies as they come with a choice this is clip from Redding

Type S – Neck Bushing Die
The Type S - Bushing Style Dies, Competition Seating and Neck Sizing Dies, Body Dies and our New Competition Shellholders are all products of Benchrest and 1000 yard Competition.

The new Type S - Bushing Style Neck Sizing Die provides reloaders with a simple means to precisely control case neck size and tension.

Uses interchangeable sizing bushings available in .001" increments.
The adjustable decapping rod allows positioning the bushing to resize only a portion of the neck length if desired.
Concentricity is enhanced by the ability of the resizing bushing to selfcenter
on the case neck.
The decapping rod is supplied with a standard size button. This is especially useful for reloaders who are using commercial brass as is.
A decapping pin retainer is also supplied with most Type S - Bushing Dies except 17 and 20 Cal. This enables neck sizing without the use of the size button for those who sort and/or turn case necks for uniformity.

reynolds357 · July 23, 2013, 08:23 PM

Old Roper, I guess I need to call Redding and tell them they left the expander ball out of the 8 sets of their bushing dies I own.

Maybe they are shipping them with the ball now, but none of mine have it. They have a threaded rod, but no button. They did not even come with a bushing.

old roper · July 24, 2013, 03:36 AM

Reynolds357, All the bushing dies from Redding I got came with expander and you had to change out to the retainer pin. Our local Sportmans Warehouse would tape the bushing die set from Redding so customers couldn't open them.

reynolds357 · July 24, 2013, 10:22 AM

I got all mine from from the B.R. gun builder I use. Maybe he's robbing them out because they are the wrong size for his chambers.

Any way, I have never gotten either in a set and always had an item on the bill for the correct sized bushing.

F. Guffey · July 24, 2013, 10:33 AM

243winxb,

A Quote from Crazywader:

“I don't understand why - if the expander ball is the last thing to touch the neck - why isn't the inside diameter wider than .218? I can't believe that the brass is flexing back that much - I haven't turned them yet. Should I?

I'm thinking of ordering a Reading or Foster die that I can change the bushings. But, I prefer to understand what's going on first. Should I send the die back to RCBS?” The end of the quote from Crazywader.

Someone should inform Crazywader RCBS sells Competition and Gold medal dies, the Competition die sold by RCBS uses the same bushings used by Redding. I do not know how many more dies CrazyWader will purchase before he finds ‘THE DIE’, I do not know if CrazyWader has an agenda, he could favor Redding and or Foster, matters not, to me, I do not know if he owns the dies he claims he owns.

“I prefer to understand what's going on first” "(read the quote again)/ Jump back, snap back, recovery and memory then there is spring back, back to the ‘I prefer’ as to imply no one else understands? I would suggest a reloader try and think, the case is manufactured and is considered new/unfired, when sizing that is as good as it gets, after that it is down hill.

Making this stuff up as in ‘a case is not fully grown until it has been fired at least 4 times’ or ‘fire form the case and then neck size it 4 times, then full length size it to start over’, now we throw in the ‘I prefer to understand’, spring back, jump back, snap back recovery and memory is different for a new/ unfired case than it is for a case that has been fired multiple times.

If a reloader wants twang, as in the sound made by the sizer plug being pulled through the neck of a case, I suggest business as usual. Remember, a new/unfired case does not have that twang ‘sound’.

F. Guffey

July 20, 2013, 08:05 PM	#1
Crazywader Junior Member Join Date: July 19, 2013 Posts: 1	Controlling Neck Tension Started preparing some new brass for .223 WSSM. After FL resizing, I checked the neck inside diameter - consistently measuring 0.218" - or 0.006 less than the bullet I'll be seating (0.224"). The expander ball that originally shipped with the die (RCBS standard FL die) measured exactly .218. Called RCBS and explained that I thought 0.006 was more than what I wanted (would prefer .002-.003 of tension). They sent me a new expander ball that measured 0.224. I believe brass will flex back after the expander ball passes through it so I expect to see an inside diameter of about .222 or slight less. I double checked to ensure when I pulled the expander ball through the neck it was AFTER the brass had already been sized by the die. Checked the inside diameter and it was still exactly .218. I understand that the die is supposed to control the tension (hence buying a set of bushings) however, I don't understand why - if the expander ball is the last thing to touch the neck - why isn't the inside diameter wider than .218? I can't believe that the brass is flexing back that much - I haven't turned them yet. Should I? I'm thinking of ordering a Reading or Foster die that I can change the bushings. But, I prefer to understand what's going on first. Should I send the die back to RCBS? Thanks, Crazywader

July 21, 2013, 01:56 AM	#2
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Before you get all crazy with the neck tension, load up a few and shoot them. You don't measure tension in fractions of an inch, you measure tension with some form of energy such as "foot pounds" and right now you don't know how much tension you actually have. What you do know is that you have more than enough dimensional difference to keep your bullets in place. The other thing you can do to preven brass spring back is to anneal your necks. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

July 23, 2013, 03:38 PM	#8
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	Reynolds357, Guess you don't own any Redding bushing dies as they come with a choice this is clip from Redding Type S – Neck Bushing Die The Type S - Bushing Style Dies, Competition Seating and Neck Sizing Dies, Body Dies and our New Competition Shellholders are all products of Benchrest and 1000 yard Competition. The new Type S - Bushing Style Neck Sizing Die provides reloaders with a simple means to precisely control case neck size and tension. Uses interchangeable sizing bushings available in .001" increments. The adjustable decapping rod allows positioning the bushing to resize only a portion of the neck length if desired. Concentricity is enhanced by the ability of the resizing bushing to selfcenter on the case neck. The decapping rod is supplied with a standard size button. This is especially useful for reloaders who are using commercial brass as is. A decapping pin retainer is also supplied with most Type S - Bushing Dies except 17 and 20 Cal. This enables neck sizing without the use of the size button for those who sort and/or turn case necks for uniformity. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

July 23, 2013, 08:23 PM	#9
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Old Roper, I guess I need to call Redding and tell them they left the expander ball out of the 8 sets of their bushing dies I own. Maybe they are shipping them with the ball now, but none of mine have it. They have a threaded rod, but no button. They did not even come with a bushing. Last edited by reynolds357; July 23, 2013 at 08:47 PM.

July 24, 2013, 03:36 AM	#10
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	Reynolds357, All the bushing dies from Redding I got came with expander and you had to change out to the retainer pin. Our local Sportmans Warehouse would tape the bushing die set from Redding so customers couldn't open them. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

July 21, 2013, 12:10 PM	#3
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	You could just order the Lee Collet Die. It's not expensive and it sure made a believer out of me. I've got all sorts of 223 dies (RCBS - std and neck, Redding - bushing and not) and I get best groups with the Lee Collet Die.

July 21, 2013, 07:04 PM	#4
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	FL size a case using the expander. Measure the outside diameter of the neck. Seat a bullet and measure the neck again. The neck should expand .002" or slightly more for good neck tension. If expanding a lot more, than i would go to bushing dies. I know in other cartridges i checked, the FL die always over sizes the necks. But i cant see you getting more than .001" brass spring back.

July 22, 2013, 07:58 AM	#5
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I never got into ‘neck tension’, all I have managed to accomplish in my efforts is to cause rleoaders to find another word that comes close to describing bullet hold with out calling ‘it’ bullet hold. I can measure bullet hold in pounds, neck tension is measured in tension, I have strain gages, deflection gages etc., no tension gages, unless we are talking about tension as in a cable, I have one of those, works on air craft control cables, big musical instrument strings etc.. Bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get. Loose bullets in the neck of a case as in ‘not much bullet hold’ is a problem for reloaders that do not know the difference between the diameter of the neck in the chamber and the outside diameter of the case neck. I know, bench resters, it is suggested all reloaders should do it like bench resters. Not easy to take the short cut, load like a bench rester with out a bench type rifle. F. Guffey

July 23, 2013, 09:10 AM	#6
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	Crazywader Last Activity: July 20, 2013 09:07 PM He spent 2 minutes on site and never came back.

July 23, 2013, 11:09 AM	#7
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Crazy Wader, I have never known anyone to use an expander ball with bushing dies. None of my bushing dies have an expander. When using bushing dies, to have any real consistency, you will have to turn the necks. Sometimes you can get by without having to turn Norma and Lapua, but everything else is about 100% guaranteed to have to be turned.

July 24, 2013, 10:22 AM	#11
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I got all mine from from the B.R. gun builder I use. Maybe he's robbing them out because they are the wrong size for his chambers. Any way, I have never gotten either in a set and always had an item on the bill for the correct sized bushing.

July 24, 2013, 10:33 AM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	243winxb, A Quote from Crazywader: “I don't understand why - if the expander ball is the last thing to touch the neck - why isn't the inside diameter wider than .218? I can't believe that the brass is flexing back that much - I haven't turned them yet. Should I? I'm thinking of ordering a Reading or Foster die that I can change the bushings. But, I prefer to understand what's going on first. Should I send the die back to RCBS?” The end of the quote from Crazywader. Someone should inform Crazywader RCBS sells Competition and Gold medal dies, the Competition die sold by RCBS uses the same bushings used by Redding. I do not know how many more dies CrazyWader will purchase before he finds ‘THE DIE’, I do not know if CrazyWader has an agenda, he could favor Redding and or Foster, matters not, to me, I do not know if he owns the dies he claims he owns. “I prefer to understand what's going on first” "(read the quote again)/ Jump back, snap back, recovery and memory then there is spring back, back to the ‘I prefer’ as to imply no one else understands? I would suggest a reloader try and think, the case is manufactured and is considered new/unfired, when sizing that is as good as it gets, after that it is down hill. Making this stuff up as in ‘a case is not fully grown until it has been fired at least 4 times’ or ‘fire form the case and then neck size it 4 times, then full length size it to start over’, now we throw in the ‘I prefer to understand’, spring back, jump back, snap back recovery and memory is different for a new/ unfired case than it is for a case that has been fired multiple times. If a reloader wants twang, as in the sound made by the sizer plug being pulled through the neck of a case, I suggest business as usual. Remember, a new/unfired case does not have that twang ‘sound’. F. Guffey