CCW badges......AGAIN!

HighValleyRanch · August 18, 2005, 05:00 PM

Ok, I already did some searchin on the net about this subject, but most of the posts I found were old. I know the same argument for both sides are the same.

But our CCW LEO suggested getting a CCW badge. He suggested one that did not imitate any of the local jurisdictions, a simple star type badge.

The reason for this was for immediate apparent identification.

if there was a shootout, you could hold your ID and badge, yell CCW HOLDER, call 911 to bystanders. No one is going to approach you to see your tiny Wallet ID, and the badge is reassuring to the civilian. That way when the LE comes, they will be more knowledeable.
Other reason is that it is a quick ID to prevent you from being shot by Officers responding to an on going situation.
It also might prevent another CCW holder from shooting you as well.

I'm no cop wantabe, I just can see the reasoning on both sides, and as I trust the judgement of my LE friend, I'm stuck in the middle.

I know the concensus is against badges, but if I'm at a distance, and you see me with my drawn gun and cannot see the bad guy, are you going to approach me to ask to see my ID? If I flash a badge and yell CCW holder what would be your honest reaction? What'd are you going to think coming onto this picture?What's going to be your reaction to this senario?

1. I hold up an ID and yell CCW holder. from where you are, you cannot tell if it is a drivers license or CCW card.
2. I hold up an ID and CCW badge and yell CCW holder! You can not see the ID clearly, but you recognize the CCW badge?

Avizpls · August 18, 2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

and the badge is reassuring to the civilian

Um.. YOU are a civillian. I think the badges are an extremely stupid and redundant idea.

Do you have you gun to protect large groups of people? Then become a cop.

If I am in THAT much danger such that my life is at risk, and I neet to start calculating "if that person does X, I am going to (pull my gun/shoot/run)Im not pulling out a little badge that I got by sending in 5 UPC's and $5.95 S&H. Im pulling out my gun shooting.

These badges are a discrace.

dasmi · August 18, 2005, 05:11 PM

People see a badge, they think "police." I am not a cop, I don't have a badge. Yelling "CCW HOLDER" probably won't mean anything to the average person. They'll see the badge, think "cop", and expect you to handle the situation. Crooks also think "cop" when they see a badge. Bad idea all around.

spacemanspiff · August 18, 2005, 05:13 PM

yeah, it will work great for getting you arrested for 'impersonating a police officer'.

that ccw badge doesnt have to be remotely similar to a LEO badge for a civilian to confuse you with having the jedi-skills LEO's automagically possess.

besides, any REAL ninja that carries has already mastered the ninja-mind-control skill that allows you to telepathically let the responded law enforcement officers know you are a good guy.

XavierBreath · August 18, 2005, 05:18 PM

If the badges were only given to CCW holders it might be different. You can buy them easily though, whether you have a CCW or not.

In a gunfight friend and foe is determined by who is shooting which direction. In a gunfight the onlookers can reassure themselves. If you have cause to pull a gun, you have cause to keep your mind on what you are doing, not flashing badges.

Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges.

If someone was shooting at YOU while holding up a CCW badge and yelling CCW holder, would you return fire? If not, you probably need a badge yourself.

joab · August 18, 2005, 05:20 PM

The only reasonably reasonable reason I can see for the badge would be to put one of those little ones on your belt next to your gun in case of an accidental flash.

If you're still thinking about getting one try one of those see-through ID holder envelopes on a cord around your neck, like they have for airports workers.

A lot cheaper than the $40 a badge costs and people will be looking for something official looking, not necessarily something shiny

I'm sure Hank will be along soon to give his expert opinion on this topic

USP45usp · August 18, 2005, 05:23 PM

, the old "CCW Badge" thread again.

Hey, I don't care if you want one, get one, or "use" one. To me it's just saying, "Hey, I wanna play cops and robbers and I'm the cop".

Plus, the LEO's that respond may not like the idea of a civilian with any type of badge and will brand them a "wannabe" and maybe try to add charges like impersonating an officer.

As for settling down the "civilians", if a shiney piece of tin does that then true Americanism is truly dead.

As for yelling "CC Holder", all you will get is blank stares of HUH. Most don't know what that is, also, the LEO's are still going to hold you at gunpoint no matter what you yell.

Wayne

Mannlicher · August 18, 2005, 05:38 PM

CCW badges are for mall ninjas. Period.

HighValleyRanch · August 18, 2005, 05:45 PM

Touched some sentitive button, did I?

Before you knee jerk jump on me, Reread my thread. I didn't say I wanted the badge, I am honestly weight the pros and cons without pre prejudice like some of your responses.

There is not ONE good reason for having one,
then why would the three CCW RCO's recommend it with approval of the sherrifs Dept?

CajunBass · August 18, 2005, 06:01 PM

They probably run a knic-knack shop that sells badges.

dasmi · August 18, 2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

The only reasonably reasonable reason I can see for the badge would be to put one of those little ones on your belt next to your gun in case of an accidental flash.

If you're still thinking about getting one try one of those see-through ID holder envelopes on a cord around your neck, like they have for airports workers.

No. Terrible, awful, idea. Impersonating a police officer. That is a crime. If someone sees a badge on your belt, next to your concealed weapon, they WILL think "cop."

joab · August 18, 2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

There is not ONE good reason for having one,

I gave one

I have always cringed at the insulting wannabe argument.

There may well be reasons to carry the badge.
If your sherrif supports it, that's a good reason to carry it in his juristiction.

I personally don't see $40 worth of good in them

XavierBreath · August 18, 2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

There is not ONE good reason for having one, then why would the three CCW RCO's recommend it with approval of the sherrifs Dept?

OK, why would ten CCW instructors recommend you do not buy one?

HVR, no offense, but CCW instructors are not the most reliable information source sometimes. I've heard them recommend that people don't carry semi-autos. I've heard them say revolvers are obsolete. I've heard them say Colts are junk. I've heard them say Glocks are junk. I've heard them recommend you carry pepper spray. I've heard them recommend you not carry pepper spray.

I've never heard one instructor recommend you get a badge that carries absolutely no authority, but I'll take your word for it, some in your area have. I have heard many instructors recommend you not get the CCW badge. So........where does that leave us? We must make up our own minds, not follow anyone's recommendations blindly. Credentials such as CCW RCO do not automatically equate to infallible advice. (What is a RCO anyway?)

To help you make up your mind, ask a few cops at the gun counter what they think about these badges. that will give you a fairer picture of how LEOs accept it in your area. Truth be told, a LEO is more likely to see and question that badge on your hip than you will need to flash it to calm bystanders, so ask a few of your local LEOs on the beat.

Powderman · August 18, 2005, 06:10 PM

Having a way to identify the holder of a valid CCW/CPL is a good idea. Having a badge to do so? I'm not too sure.

Yes, the presence of a badge CAN help to identify you as one of the good guys.

Unfortunately, it can also grow into a charge of impersonation--depending on who the officers are at the scene.

If a person decides to use such a badge, extreme care must be taken to avoid saying or doing anything to give the impression that the identity of a police officer is being taken on. And remember this--when criminal charges are pressed, intent is one of the elements of the crime. Unfortunately, so is a standard that we have identified through the years as the "reasonable man" doctrine.

Simply put, this asks "What would a reasonable person do/think in this situation?"

Frequently, the answer will probably be that "a reasonable person, upon seeing a badge of the same size and configuration as that of a law enforcement officer, would assume that the holder and bearer of such a badge is in fact a law enforcement officer."

And the idea of making it a different size and shape? Hardly a remedy. Take a look at any Gall's catalog, especially at the custom badges. You will see all sizes, shapes and configurations, from plain squares, circles and ovals to some really creative and attractive badges. Take a look, for instance, at the New Orleans PD badge to see an example of an unusual and creative badge design.

In the end, though, the choice is that of the holder of the CCW/CPL. Just don't get yourself in a bind by doing so, though.

(By the way, we are civilians, too!)

delta58 · August 18, 2005, 06:14 PM

I think I'm with the no badge crowd. The ones I have seen look fairly official unless you see them up close, so you might be looking at impersonation charges. I would hope that when an LEO shows after a shootout if you don't have a weapon pointed at him and you are waiting around for them he wouldn't automatically think you were a bad guy. You should be prepared to held at gunpoint until things get sorted out though.

joab · August 18, 2005, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Impersonating a police officer. That is a crime. If someone sees a badge on your belt, next to your concealed weapon, they WILL think "cop."

No it's not.
The badge does not say police anywhere on it.
Whatever they think is there problem as long as you do not knowingly attempt to persuade them that you are a cop.

I have a baseball cap that says NYPD on it my ex bought it for me as a joke when she was in NY.
Does that constitute impersonation.

They sell black T-shirts with POLICE emblazoned across the chest at the local flea markets.I have seen non police officer walk into the jail to pick up a newly released friend wearing these shirts why were they not arrested.

I used to wear a uniform that was the same color scheme as the local sheriff's deputies and carried a pest control bait gun that looked similar to a semi auto handgun. I was called officer on several occasions would that not be considered impersonating by your definition.

A definition that you got where exactly?

Eghad · August 18, 2005, 06:19 PM

I think I'll just stick with the ID for CCW >_<

joab · August 18, 2005, 06:26 PM

As I have said before, I want a T-shirt so when the time comes I can whip my cover shirt open like Superman protecting truth, justice, and the American way

HighValleyRanch · August 18, 2005, 06:33 PM

Xavier:
RCO=Range Command Officer as per the CCW board instructions as what we were asked to call them. They are all veteran Law Enforcement. One is a buddy of mine and I do trust his judgement as he teaches firearms training for the sheriff dept. and has the class outline approved by the dept.

The senario after the shooting and holding out the badge and yelling call 911, CCW holder was given by two of the officers. Not my senario.

Shootouts are not alway over in a few seconds. Each might take cover and the gunfight ensues, so yes, flashing a badge to someone walking onto the scence might save one's life. If it saves my life, i don't give a hoot about the wanatabe a cop insults. Just look at all the what if senario threads on this forum. Looks like alot of guys that want to be save the universerse types, yet anyone mentions the pros and cons of having a badge and they deny it.

And as to the poster that said,

Quote:

Um.. YOU are a civillian. I think the badges are an extremely stupid and redundant idea.

Do you have you gun to protect large groups of people? Then become a cop.

If I am in THAT much danger such that my life is at risk, and I neet to start calculating "if that person does X, I am going to (pull my gun/shoot/run)Im not pulling out a little badge that I got by sending in 5 UPC's and $5.95 S&H. Im pulling out my gun shooting.

These badges are a discrace.

calling others civilians does not mean that I am not. It clarifies the people that I am referring to. Apparently you did not read the thread without your knee jerking up. I did not say anywhere that I was trying to protect large groups of people. Where the heck did that one come from?
And I am calculating what to do ahead of time, now in this forum, not during the gun battle. Jeeze!

sendec · August 18, 2005, 06:44 PM

I'm not gonna charge someone with impersonation just because they have a CCW badge, but it also isnt gonna carry any weight if I see it. I'll still want to examine the actual permit and probably some other form of picture ID also. This also goes for people claining that they are cops. Without real ID its justa piece of tin.

I am firmly in the "no badge" camp, and as a matter of fact do not even carry my shield off duty, just my department photo ID, which is in a hidden compartment of my wallet. Part of my concern has been what might happen in a robbery or hostage situation if it were to be found. My family is trained to not let on that I'm a cop and to go to the ground at the first sign of me drawing my gun.

joab · August 18, 2005, 06:51 PM

Quote:

I'm not gonna charge someone with impersonation just because they have a CCW badge, but it also isnt gonna carry any weight if I see it.

That is the exact sentiment and some times word for word answer I have gotten from almost every LEO I have bothered with this question,including a county sheriff and a chief of police

HighValleyRanch · August 18, 2005, 06:59 PM

Thanks!'The responses fron Sendac and Joab have been constructive and give good points without insulting pokes for my asking a valid question.

joab · August 18, 2005, 07:03 PM

If you noticed by my last post I have asked ay least few LEOs about this topic.
If you check the time of when I first posted on this thread till now you could logically deduce that I did not asked them all tonight.

What does that tell you about my interest in this topic

PythonGuy · August 18, 2005, 07:31 PM

Well OK, cue up the theme from "Andy of Mayberry" and call him Barney Fife. Carrying a CCW badge and telling someone they aren't into playing cops and robbers is like saying Osama Bin Laden is a friend of America, just not true. You can play the knee-jerk card all you want, but having a "fake" badge, that's what it is afterall, is ridiculous. What's next, a light and siren on your head??

You want to shoot someone legally, take up paintball.

Dust_Devil · August 18, 2005, 08:16 PM

Any person, even the criminals, can hold up some silly badge and make themselves look like legal gun holders to the public or to the police.

Most of the general public don't even know or don't want to know that people are even carrying concealed. What makes anyone think that they will respond to someone holding some badge and yelling "I'm a CCW holder!"

Like a person is going to worry about reaching in his pocket to grab his CCW badge during a life and death shootout.

The police don't need to know if you are a legal CCW holder during a shootout. The only thing they need to worry about is that you aren't shooting at them and they can always can ask to see your CCW permit after the shootout is over.

The key to concealed carry is "concealment" and not advertise that you are a CCW holder when you open up your wallet and there's this shiny CCW badge.

August 18, 2005, 05:00 PM	#1
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	CCW badges......AGAIN! Ok, I already did some searchin on the net about this subject, but most of the posts I found were old. I know the same argument for both sides are the same. But our CCW LEO suggested getting a CCW badge. He suggested one that did not imitate any of the local jurisdictions, a simple star type badge. The reason for this was for immediate apparent identification. if there was a shootout, you could hold your ID and badge, yell CCW HOLDER, call 911 to bystanders. No one is going to approach you to see your tiny Wallet ID, and the badge is reassuring to the civilian. That way when the LE comes, they will be more knowledeable. Other reason is that it is a quick ID to prevent you from being shot by Officers responding to an on going situation. It also might prevent another CCW holder from shooting you as well. I'm no cop wantabe, I just can see the reasoning on both sides, and as I trust the judgement of my LE friend, I'm stuck in the middle. I know the concensus is against badges, but if I'm at a distance, and you see me with my drawn gun and cannot see the bad guy, are you going to approach me to ask to see my ID? If I flash a badge and yell CCW holder what would be your honest reaction? What'd are you going to think coming onto this picture?What's going to be your reaction to this senario? 1. I hold up an ID and yell CCW holder. from where you are, you cannot tell if it is a drivers license or CCW card. 2. I hold up an ID and CCW badge and yell CCW holder! You can not see the ID clearly, but you recognize the CCW badge? __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

August 18, 2005, 05:11 PM	#3
dasmi Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 882	People see a badge, they think "police." I am not a cop, I don't have a badge. Yelling "CCW HOLDER" probably won't mean anything to the average person. They'll see the badge, think "cop", and expect you to handle the situation. Crooks also think "cop" when they see a badge. Bad idea all around. __________________ If we look at the black record of mass murder, exploitation, and tyranny levied on society by governments over the ages, we need not be loath to abandon the Leviathan State and ... try freedom. --Murray Rothbard, For a New Liberty

August 18, 2005, 05:13 PM	#4
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	yeah, it will work great for getting you arrested for 'impersonating a police officer'. that ccw badge doesnt have to be remotely similar to a LEO badge for a civilian to confuse you with having the jedi-skills LEO's automagically possess. besides, any REAL ninja that carries has already mastered the ninja-mind-control skill that allows you to telepathically let the responded law enforcement officers know you are a good guy. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

August 18, 2005, 05:18 PM	#5
XavierBreath Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2002 Location: North Louisiana Posts: 2,800	If the badges were only given to CCW holders it might be different. You can buy them easily though, whether you have a CCW or not. In a gunfight friend and foe is determined by who is shooting which direction. In a gunfight the onlookers can reassure themselves. If you have cause to pull a gun, you have cause to keep your mind on what you are doing, not flashing badges. Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges. If someone was shooting at YOU while holding up a CCW badge and yelling CCW holder, would you return fire? If not, you probably need a badge yourself. __________________ Xavier's Blog

August 18, 2005, 05:20 PM	#6
joab Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2002 Location: Orl Fla Posts: 3,254	The only reasonably reasonable reason I can see for the badge would be to put one of those little ones on your belt next to your gun in case of an accidental flash. If you're still thinking about getting one try one of those see-through ID holder envelopes on a cord around your neck, like they have for airports workers. A lot cheaper than the $40 a badge costs and people will be looking for something official looking, not necessarily something shiny I'm sure Hank will be along soon to give his expert opinion on this topic __________________ Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing

August 18, 2005, 05:23 PM	#7
USP45usp Junior member Join Date: May 17, 2000 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 3,427	, the old "CCW Badge" thread again. Hey, I don't care if you want one, get one, or "use" one. To me it's just saying, "Hey, I wanna play cops and robbers and I'm the cop". Plus, the LEO's that respond may not like the idea of a civilian with any type of badge and will brand them a "wannabe" and maybe try to add charges like impersonating an officer. As for settling down the "civilians", if a shiney piece of tin does that then true Americanism is truly dead. As for yelling "CC Holder", all you will get is blank stares of HUH. Most don't know what that is, also, the LEO's are still going to hold you at gunpoint no matter what you yell. Wayne

August 18, 2005, 05:38 PM	#8
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	CCW badges are for mall ninjas. Period. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

August 18, 2005, 05:45 PM	#9
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	Touched some sentitive button, did I? Before you knee jerk jump on me, Reread my thread. I didn't say I wanted the badge, I am honestly weight the pros and cons without pre prejudice like some of your responses. There is not ONE good reason for having one, then why would the three CCW RCO's recommend it with approval of the sherrifs Dept? __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

August 18, 2005, 06:01 PM	#10
CajunBass Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Location: North Chesterfield, Virginia Posts: 4,767	They probably run a knic-knack shop that sells badges. __________________ For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (NKJV)

August 18, 2005, 06:10 PM	#14
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Having a way to identify the holder of a valid CCW/CPL is a good idea. Having a badge to do so? I'm not too sure. Yes, the presence of a badge CAN help to identify you as one of the good guys. Unfortunately, it can also grow into a charge of impersonation--depending on who the officers are at the scene. If a person decides to use such a badge, extreme care must be taken to avoid saying or doing anything to give the impression that the identity of a police officer is being taken on. And remember this--when criminal charges are pressed, intent is one of the elements of the crime. Unfortunately, so is a standard that we have identified through the years as the "reasonable man" doctrine. Simply put, this asks "What would a reasonable person do/think in this situation?" Frequently, the answer will probably be that "a reasonable person, upon seeing a badge of the same size and configuration as that of a law enforcement officer, would assume that the holder and bearer of such a badge is in fact a law enforcement officer." And the idea of making it a different size and shape? Hardly a remedy. Take a look at any Gall's catalog, especially at the custom badges. You will see all sizes, shapes and configurations, from plain squares, circles and ovals to some really creative and attractive badges. Take a look, for instance, at the New Orleans PD badge to see an example of an unusual and creative badge design. In the end, though, the choice is that of the holder of the CCW/CPL. Just don't get yourself in a bind by doing so, though. (By the way, we are civilians, too!) __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

August 18, 2005, 06:14 PM	#15
delta58 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2005 Location: Florida panhandle Posts: 128	I think I'm with the no badge crowd. The ones I have seen look fairly official unless you see them up close, so you might be looking at impersonation charges. I would hope that when an LEO shows after a shootout if you don't have a weapon pointed at him and you are waiting around for them he wouldn't automatically think you were a bad guy. You should be prepared to held at gunpoint until things get sorted out though. __________________ Doug Helms <>< "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." Ben Franklin.

August 18, 2005, 06:19 PM	#17
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	I think I'll just stick with the ID for CCW >_< __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

August 18, 2005, 06:26 PM	#18
joab Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2002 Location: Orl Fla Posts: 3,254	As I have said before, I want a T-shirt so when the time comes I can whip my cover shirt open like Superman protecting truth, justice, and the American way __________________ Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing

August 18, 2005, 06:44 PM	#20
sendec Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2005 Posts: 517	I'm not gonna charge someone with impersonation just because they have a CCW badge, but it also isnt gonna carry any weight if I see it. I'll still want to examine the actual permit and probably some other form of picture ID also. This also goes for people claining that they are cops. Without real ID its justa piece of tin. I am firmly in the "no badge" camp, and as a matter of fact do not even carry my shield off duty, just my department photo ID, which is in a hidden compartment of my wallet. Part of my concern has been what might happen in a robbery or hostage situation if it were to be found. My family is trained to not let on that I'm a cop and to go to the ground at the first sign of me drawing my gun.

August 18, 2005, 06:59 PM	#22
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	Thanks!'The responses fron Sendac and Joab have been constructive and give good points without insulting pokes for my asking a valid question. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

August 18, 2005, 07:03 PM	#23
joab Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2002 Location: Orl Fla Posts: 3,254	If you noticed by my last post I have asked ay least few LEOs about this topic. If you check the time of when I first posted on this thread till now you could logically deduce that I did not asked them all tonight. What does that tell you about my interest in this topic __________________ Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing

August 18, 2005, 07:31 PM	#24
PythonGuy Junior member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 456	Well OK, cue up the theme from "Andy of Mayberry" and call him Barney Fife. Carrying a CCW badge and telling someone they aren't into playing cops and robbers is like saying Osama Bin Laden is a friend of America, just not true. You can play the knee-jerk card all you want, but having a "fake" badge, that's what it is afterall, is ridiculous. What's next, a light and siren on your head?? You want to shoot someone legally, take up paintball.

August 18, 2005, 08:16 PM	#25
Dust_Devil Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 235	Any person, even the criminals, can hold up some silly badge and make themselves look like legal gun holders to the public or to the police. Most of the general public don't even know or don't want to know that people are even carrying concealed. What makes anyone think that they will respond to someone holding some badge and yelling "I'm a CCW holder!" Like a person is going to worry about reaching in his pocket to grab his CCW badge during a life and death shootout. The police don't need to know if you are a legal CCW holder during a shootout. The only thing they need to worry about is that you aren't shooting at them and they can always can ask to see your CCW permit after the shootout is over. The key to concealed carry is "concealment" and not advertise that you are a CCW holder when you open up your wallet and there's this shiny CCW badge.