More .45-70 Experience with the Ruger No 1

[Bongo Boy]

Had a bit of time to go to the range today with the No 1, after having shimmed up the forearm hanger and bedding the forearm to ensure it only touches the hanger. The rifle was in the garage so it started out at a temperature of maybe 20-30F, being about 15F outside today.

Everything today was shot inside at 50 yds, and all loads had at least a modest crimp--some done with the RCBS die and looking more like a roll, others with the Lee FC and looking about like the Remington factory .45-70 collet crimp.

First 20-rnd assault took place with the 420gr cast big meplat rounds over 45gr 4198, producing a somewhat vertically-stringed 4" group.

The second 10-rnd group was 5" top to bottom, also a vertical string less than 2" wide. These loads were the 350gr jacketed soft point (round nose) 'factory second' bullets from Midway, over 38 gr 4198.

Third up was a 20-rnd group 4 1/4" top to bottom--a 3 in group if I discount one obvious flyer. These were my 325gr cast bullets over 45 gr 4198.

Next was an interesting result--300gr Hornady hollow points over 42gr 4198, forming a 1" wide group 2.5" top-to-bottom--all 15 rds touching but one.

With the barrel now quite toasty hot and about 90 minutes into the session, the final 20-rnd group formed a single 2" diameter round hole. These were the 420 gr cast bullets over a modest 38gr 4198. Heavy bullet, light charge, hot barrel. Really quite hot, actually.

While this isn't shooting to brag about, for sure, it looks like 'progress' is being made, sort of. At the very least I now have some hope for a brighter tomorrow. It appears that the 420 gr cast bullets can shoot, and the light 300gr Hornadys can most likely find a sweet spot, too.

I'm thinking I'll load a good bit of the 420/38 combo for a single session, running the gun on just that diet for a while to see if I can maybe tune the forearm hanger, do a more thorough bedding job, and see how much cold-to-hot is really having an impact. I'll squeeze in some loads using the same bullet and a range of 40, 42 and 44 gr of 4198 to try to develop a trend.

It seems to me there'd be a benefit to a custom front rest for this gun to allow the gun to be rested only on the very aft portion of the forearm, and yet allow operation of the lever. Right now I have to completely removed the gun from the rest to unload/load--which is an irritation.

[Tony Z]

Why any crimp at all?

[eastbank]

my ruger #3 shoots into a 3 shot group inch with the hornady 300gr hpfp with 50grs H4198 at 100yrds on a good rest(lead sled) with a 4x leupold. its scary accurtt. eastbank.

[Bongo Boy]

Why any crimp at all?

Only because it's been recommended so often I thought it would be good to at least try to find some indication that it has any impact one way or another. I honestly don't think I have a baseline yet--except for the 420 gr cast with 38 gr 4198--and until I can consistently shoot what I consider a group, I'm not in a position to do a crimp/no-crimp side-by-side, which is what I'd like to have to draw any conclusions.

[kilimanjaro]

Seventy rounds of 45-70 is a session, indeed. Let us know if you use your shoulder for the next week.

[Sharkbite]

Something is SERIOUSLY wrong with this picture.

4-5 inch groups at 50 yards is horrible. A 12ga smooth bore with a slug will shoot tighter then that!!

[steveno]

my Ruger #1S in 45-70 would not shoot plain base lead bullets for anything. if it had a gas check it shot lead bullets really well. I liked the Lyman # 457483 and it weighed about 385 grains depending upon the alloy. they don't make that mold anymore but if you can find one at a gunshow or an older gunshop I think you will be happy. it would do 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards using 2400 powder.

it shot all jacketed bullets really well

I should add that i never done anything with the foreend other than making sure the screw was tight

[Sharkbite]

The OP is citing the same horrible groups with cast AND jacketed bullets

[Tony Z]

I would lose the crimp first, as all it does is prevent bullets moving due to heavy recoil and as the #1 is a single shot, there is no issue. I don't remember where the OP is resting the forearm when shooting, but I would make sure of same placement overtime and then experiment with different rest points. Finally, again I don't remember type of optics, but I would make sure there is not a problem in that area.

[bobn]

its that darn new white powder. I think I would try a black powder cartridge load. something like 62 grains of ff from a drop tube, card wad. modest pressure to seat wad, beeswax lube on a 405 grain flat nose cast lead bullet, just enough crimp to say it is crimped. bobn

[Bongo Boy]

Per all the recommendations I've seen online, I'm making every effort to rest the front of the rifle at the receiver, to the degree possible. During this session, all I had available was a square bag about 6" wide, and I put the rifle as far forward as I could--trigger guard mashing into the bag, but no weight on the trigger guard.

All cast bullets are gas-checked. The first 2 groups were shot with loads that were indeed seated about 0.010" long, I'd guess, as I had to push some of them into the rifling to close the breach. I understand this isn't good for accuracy--but it sure is hard to imagine it being the cause of 8 MOA groups. Shame on me for not testing them at the bench--I'm in the nasty habit of setting my seater based on "looks good", since I've never owned a firearm without ample leade. This gun apparently has none at all.

The jacketed bullets had no such trouble, and as I remember it, the last two sets of cast did not engage the rifling but rather dropped into the chamber with relative ease. All shots fired were neck-sized only, once-fired brass.

During my previous session, as reported in my other thread on the topic, the Leupold 6x scope mounts had indeed loosened, but during this session I checked a couple of times and everything is rock solid.

I think it's at least worth noting, before concluding anything about the bullets, that the 420 cast loads I fired last were grouped considerably better than either of the jacketed loads. Still, that's a 2" group at 50 yards bringing everything I've got to the table--twice the dispersion I'd be okay with.

Finally, all loads are 100% hand trickled and with possibly a few exceptions, all charge weights should be well within 0.1 gr of the target weight. I know in a few cases I overshot the target by a 1/10th or two and let 'em ride. I don't think load consistency is a factor here.

The rifle is an absolute pleasure to shoot--but much like with a lovely set of new clubs, being able to keep the ball on the fairway would certainly add a lot to the experience.

I'm inclined to remove the forearm, remove the shim between the hanger and the barrel, and drill and tap the receiver on each side for an all-steel bipod mount bolted to the receiver...or welded to it.

A 12ga smooth bore with a slug will shoot tighter then that!!

When I left the range last time the guy at the counter asked me how it went. I told him (exaggerating, of course) that I'd seen guys print tighter groups off-hand with revolvers. May not have been an exaggeration.

[eastbank]

the number one i owned had a vary short leade and would not chamber 525 gr cast postel bullets, but the number three would, i kept the number three. i do have a number one in .458 mag,but i have not worked with it yet. eastbank.

[Bongo Boy]

Well, here we are a year down the road and more. Just got back from the range after installing the accurizer thingie. I had it tightened up pretty good, so after the first pie-plate sized group at 75 yds, I backed it off about 3 turns. Groups with the same ammo 'tightend up' (I use the phrase very loosely) to about 4" or so--enough to warrant changing the scope hairs.

Unfortunately, I didn't really plan to go to the range, and grabbed whatever ammo I had on hand...and that ended up being at least 3 different loads. Changing to a lighter load dropped point of impact 6 inches, and when I went to a slightly over-max load with 320 gr cast, point of impact was about 14" above the bullseye. A 4" group of 3 shots that I couldn't even find initially since none of them hit the target at all and the cardboard backer was swiss cheese. But, those holes were all jacketed 223, so my cast .458s weren't too hard to find--once I looked for them over a foot away from point of aim.

Brought the target in to FIFTEEN yards to see where they were hitting, and I printed a real nice 1" group (little smiley goes here) about 3" above point of aim.

So, next time out, I take about 60 rds of the same exact load, and lighter of course, and try again to get enough repeatability to adjust the accurizer.

I very seriously don't think it's me...I'd say most of the shots went by complete surprise--very few exceptions--and out of 50 rds, I'd say about 3-4 broke when I was knowingly about 1" to right of intended center of a 3" bull.

Not being a rifle shooter, I was shocked that even dramatic differences in the handloads made THAT much difference in trajectory at 75 yds. Is that 'normal' for 300-350 gr bullets traveling at over 2000 fps? I was truly blown away by that, for sure.

I was actually shooting a mix of cast and jacketed today--some possible improvement, as was suggested above, with the big 400 grain cast flat nose, gas checked monsters over the others...but nothing conclusive by any means.

[SaxonPig]

My 458 #1 strings a bit but overall makes decent groups.




The 243 #1 also makes vertical groups but again pretty close.

[eastbank]

check to see if the scope mount rail rear is touching the receiver, i take the rib rail off and grind it so that it will not touch the receiver and it has made a big difference in accurcy on several of my # ones. eastbank.

[BumbleBug]

My #1 .45-70 is scary accurate with just about any cast/jacket bullet I put in it. I've never messed with the hangar or bedding. A 4" group at 200yds is only "fair" for this rifle.

Could the bore be leaded causing the problem?

Just a thought....

[random guy]

First of all, what are you using for sights? The open sights that come on them (and most rifles really) aren't very precise. That could be part of your dispersion and at least should be taken into account. If scoped, check for parallax. In fact, you might swap scopes. The only scope I've ever had a catastrophic failure with was on a hot loaded .45/70. Pretty obvious in that case though from the parts clanking around inside.

The fact that some loads have shot much better though shows that there is something else going on. Lighter loads and cast bullets are two things I've seldom gotten to work well in a rifles so I personally would avoid them as an extra complication at this point.

My first No.1 was a .375 H&H which was a real scattergun at first. Simply relieving the forend pressure and seating bullets out near the lands transformed it. Made for a really cool 4" long round too. Your barrel should be pretty stout. I'd stick with the free float you had minus the accurizer tension.

One big advantage of a SS is that you can load to about any length, especially if you don't need a crimp groove. For that matter, with your FC die, you can put a crimp anywhere you want. I'd try to establish how long the throat is and seat out near it, with and without crimp. IMR 4198 was my best powder for hotter Marlin loads behind a 300 Sierra. Consistently 2-3MOA with a Lyman peep. In a hunting lever gun, that is good in my book.

For lighter loads in a Contender, H322 worked better. That might be useful with cast bullets.

[ammo.crafter]

Your OAL should not allow the bullet from touching the lands/grooves of your barrel.

Load a round seating the bullet "long", but do not apply any crimp.

Chamber the round and measure the OAL.

Adjust your seating die so that the OAL is 0.10" shorter than the first round and see what groups this brings.

As others have said, the forearm can be an issue with the single shot Ruger.

You can always discuss your issue with Ruger and seek their advice.
I may have missed this but have you shot groups with "store-bought .45-70?

Good luck

[44 AMP]

My Ruger No.3 with no "accuracy work" done at all (totally stock) has put 3 shots in two holes making a 1 inch group. Two shots were in one overlapping hole, the third an inch away, 100yds, from a bench, 2.5x post scope.

385gr cast RN, IMR 3031, factory duplication load from a 1970 Lyman manual (400-405gr bullet). Rounds loaded to crimp groove and crimped with RCBS seating die. Not loaded long to be close to the lands. Rounds crimped as they are also used in a marlin 1895.

They're all different a bit, and (older) No.1s aren't noted for being tackdrivers in some calibers, or with all ammo, but you should be able to get much better than 4-5 inches.

Maybe have someone else shoot it???

[kraigwy]

A few years a go, I went to a BPCR Creedmoor Match. Using my '95 Browing copy of the Winchester Model 1895 High Wall in 45-70.

I figured, like with revolvers I needed hard cast bullets pushed as fast as I could get them.

I could hear the bullet sizzling as they tumbled to the target. The gun running the match is a National Record holder in BPCR shooting.

He told me to use pure lead, and keep the velocity of my 45-70 bullets between 1200 and 1300 fps, (the standard for the Army's 45-70 load. Guess what they work. I get lazy and don't want to clean the BP our of my barrels so I use 28 gr of 4198 which equals the Armys velocity for that round. Its accurate and easy on my shoulder, even with the curved steel but plate. It also works in my Trapdoor Springfield.

I do put a slight taper crimp on my ammo, just to keep the bullet in place until I'm ready to shoot.

The guy mentioned above, doesn't crimp his. He uses paper patched bullets and seats them by hand in the pre-charged case just as he puts them in the gun. Not sure but I think the final seating occurs when he closes the breach.

I never met anyone who knew more about BPCR shooting then he does. I just hope I get the opportunity to shoot with him again and bend his ear.

But if you think back, the 45-70 pushing about 1300 fps killed a lot of buffalo. The Army gave that ammo away in hopes people would kill off he buffalo to force the Indians on reservations. If its good for buffalo, it certainly is good enough for anything I shoot. Plus its mild shooting and I'm a wimp. I shoot for fun, not to get beat up.

[Bongo Boy]

Okay, I see a few more ideas here--which I'm happy to try. I think I'll get my bidnith together and lay out a test plan so I'm not changing 4 things at once and expecting to see a pattern. I can answer some questions though:

I'm using a Leupold fixed 6x36 scope, and I've measured an 0.008" gap between the receiver and the aft end of the scope mounting rail.

To my great amazement, the bore is not only free of any lead, it's free of any residue or visible debris of any kind--there is no way I could run a patch through that barrel and possibly have it be any cleaner or brighter.

I definitely like the idea of having someone else shoot it. But first, I'm going to take the advice so many have given me, and go all the way down to some SAAMI / Marlin level loads using a single bullet: the 300 gr Hornady HP which I have enough of to do some real testing.

I do have an adjustable trigger on the way and probably won't be able to resist the urge to put it in--but if so, at least it will remain a constant.

[44 AMP]

Hey Bongo, sorry to hear your hard luck story with the .45-70. I've got a couple things for you to try, BEFORE you do anything else....

Buy a box of FACTORY ammo. Shoot a few rounds and if its going 4-5inches, REPLACE THE SCOPE!!!!!

Or just take it off and shoot a group with the iron sights and see what happens.

Don't mess with anything in the forearm (for now) take a look at the scope.

A friend had a somewhat similar situation with his No.1 .45-70 and an older Leupold scope. He shot "gorilla" loads, and literally, broke the scope. Scope looked fine, adjusted ok, but was broke, so that the crosshairs literally jumped to a "new spot" every time a shot was fired. This MIGHT be your problem!

Try some factory ammo (standard 405gr stuff) for consistency, and iron sights or a different scope and see what happens.

My friend sent the scope back to Leupold, and they said it was broke, and they fixed it. Said a .45-70 shouldn't have broken it, but it did so, they fixed it. Today that repaired scope on the same rifle does teeny groups at 100yds.

SO, don't change anything else, until you're CERTAIN the scope isn't the problem. And get back to us what you find out, ok?

.45-70s are one of the most forgiving rounds, usually shooting fairly well with about everything and exceptionally well with some loads.

I'm willing to bet your scope is kerflumixed somehow, and the same scope has been a constant with all your shooting, right???

Try something else, and let us know if it makes a difference, and what kind.

Good Luck!

[flashhole]

You might find some value in this link..

https://www.shootersforum.com/single...round-2-a.html

If I were you I would pick ONE bullet and work with it until it demonstrates it is not accurate. Then try a different bullet.

I can throw rocks better than 4" at 50 yards. Make sure every step of your shooting process is exactly the same ... every time ... same engagement with the rest, same engagement with your shoulder, same sighting, same trigger pull, same breathing, same everything.

I get different results from my #1V just by moving forward or back in the rest.

[NoSecondBest]

The 45-70 is the easiest cartridge there is to load for. I have a Pedersoli Sharps, A Winchester High Wall, and a Winchester 1886. The least accurate one of those three is the 1886, and it will shoot five shots consistently into less than 1.7" at my 114yd range. The Pedersoli Sharps and the Win High Wall will shoot sub 1moa with several loads. I owned one Ruger #1 years ago in 25-06 and finally gave up on trying to get it to shoot. I'd check the scope to make sure it's not the scope and then I'd be looking for another gun.

[Bongo Boy]

and the same scope has been a constant with all your shooting, right???

Yes.

I have an old Weaver scope I may be able to mount for comparison--it would make an interesting experiment if nothing else.

Thanks also for the link, flashole...I really feel the need to do something different with this forearm nightmare, and that approach seems solid. Currently, I can squeeze the barrel-forearm and get a boatload of flex between the two--which makes no sense to me. If the forearm is screwed up tight to the hanger and the hanger is being stressed against the barrel with the 'accurizer' screw, then there shouldn't be any flex. I think the whole setup is goofy, but the accurizer makes it even goofier.