CZ - A Love Hate Relationship

[SimulatedZero]

So, I moved to a new area and had an opportunity to spend some one on one time with a couple of CZ pistols, the CZ 75B and the CZ P07. I decided two things. The first being that I had to own the P07, there was no option. The second being that I can't place my trust in the brand yet and I'll explain why as I go.

A quick little background on me, I come from the striker fired family of firearms. I have acquired, through various means, a Glock 17, GI Colt 1911 ~circa early 50's, Beretta 92fs, SW Shield 9mm, and a few revolvers. I learned how to shoot on a Glock and picked up competitions and Glock matches from there. I have thousands of rounds through my Glock (shot 500 to 1000 a month for the entire period I ran comps) and have at least 3k on my Shield. Everything else, I just plinked with every once and a while.

Recently, I brought the Beretta out of mothballs and ran it for a while, expecting to hate it, hate the size, hate the trigger. Loved it from mag 1. Got a little hooked on being at the range after a couple years out of the game and slugged in the neighborhood of a thousand rounds through the 92fs (this was definitely not the wife approved amount I agreed on) Still hate the DA/SA transition shot. Here comes trying to find a hammer fired pistol with a manual safety for condition one carry with a consistent trigger.

Found and settled on CZ as a brand. Hadn't really been interested in the past (was never a fan of Soviet Bloc weapons) and didn't know much about them. I was happy with the price point and apparent reliability. The brand had the usual following that most brands do, which is to say if I were to say the wrong thing I might find myself observing the operational end of any particular model as proof of point. Sad to say, I didn't see the reliability on the range.

Range Day



7 1/2 yds

(Please excuse my marksmanship, it's not my finest...)


Initial Impressions:

I think I just got sucked into hammer fired pistols in a big way. I've always enjoyed firing the SA on the Colt, but this was a beautiful thing. The groups aren't that impressive, I'll put that on being out of practice, but it was so easy. Considering I haven't logged much range time in two years outside of the occasional holiday, I'll take it.

This was fired at a cadence of about a round per second or so, pretty focused on grouping. What's very interesting to me was the relative grouping for each weapon. I printed about center with the Beretta, though I let the group open up. The interesting part is I shot center target with each weapon and printed left of center with the 75B and high left with the P07.

Both weapons were similar in trigger, slide design (overlapping frame rail), and were fired SA only. The big differences being barrel length and grip width. I dropped a few rounds each and I wasn't hitting point of aim. This stayed consistent with each pistol as I ran them through their paces. I always hit left of center or high left with the 75B and P07, respectively. One of the gentleman at the range, the local gun club organizer, offered that different grip sizes could change the point of impact if all else is equal. Made sense to me as it would effect where my trigger finger fell if I was just putting it on there and not paying attention.


My next measure for them, after cycling a few rounds for a bit to get a feel, was to run a short target acquisition game. Nothing fancy or tactical, just putting 10 rounds on target, bringing up from low and ready and firing at speed. Reloading 4 rounds and alternating corner targets at the top and then the bottom, starting from low ready for the first shot.



CZ P07 9mm - 7 1/2 yds





CZ 75B 9mm - 7 1/2 yds



Here I really start to get a feel for the two different firearms. I will admit, I let the groups open up a bit between speed and the time I had on range already (plus it was raining outside, I think I had cold coming on, stress at work, and definitely shouldn't have had that popcorn. If I think of anything else I'll be sure to mention it) However, there was a clear difference for me on which one ran better in my hands.

I was biased towards the 75B. I really wanted to like the gun. The metal on metal was smooth as butter, the slim profile for IWB carry, manual safety. The works. The reality was I couldn't shoot it for $%*#. I just had a harder time finding my target past the sights and keeping there at speed. The gun did present well in my hands from low ready, but the grip was a bit small for my tastes. The irony here being that the popularity of the grip was a bit of a selling point for me.

The P07 on the other hand was a dream. Just a beautiful weapon to hold. It molded to my hand and rode nice low in my grip. The trigger was beautiful. I'm an odd one when it comes to shooting in a lot of ways. The first being I don't really adhere to any shooting system or style (simplicity, consistency, trainability are my only hard rules) and I actually like a triggers a little less crisp. It makes it easier for me to achieve a surprise break and not drop a round due to anticipation. It's one of the reasons I had a hard time missing with my Glock. Ironically enough my shooting with the P07 wasn't anything write home about and I dropped a couple rounds while switching corner targets. But I really enjoyed it and it was incredibly easy and natural for me.

I have no doubt that with more practice I will dial it in, a couple hundreds each is the equivalent of saying hi and shaking hands as far as I'm concerned. The real issue for me is the failures I had with the 75B. I had 5 FTE. Four of them were in a row, one per magazine on my target game above. The extractor wasn't that worn or dirty and the ammo was a mix of the local stuff they carried at the range and Winchester white box (not my usual, but the price was right). Both brands delivered FTE's.








Just to give the highlights.



I did a little digging online afterwards and saw a tendency for failure to go into battery for CZ's. Not often, but often enough to give me hesitation. Between that and the issues I had at the range, I got that little bug in my ear whispering sweet nothings about moving on past CZ and looking elsewhere. Throw in the fact that I wasn't hitting point of aim (an annoyance for me to be sure. Doubly considering I couldn't tell if I just sucked or if I didn't like the gun) and it would usually be a done deal for me. The only thing keeping me hooked on having P07 on my side is how much I enjoyed the ergonomics and handling of the weapon.

Are these issues others have experienced with CZ as a whole, or did I get a bit of lemon with the 75B? I know they switched slide coating to Nitride on the P07 to help durability, but I didn't see if it had the same issues with it wearing to a rough surface and failing to go into battery on occasion.

I'm not looking for a list on complaints about everybody's bad experience (this is the internet, that's our specialty here. I could find personal stories of issues with a Rolls Royce Phantom from someone who can't afford to fix the fact that their missing half there teeth out here) as much as I'm looking for everybody's feel and thoughts for the brand as a rock solid daily carry gun. My shield has been on my side for 3 years and survived pure hell, including being soaked in beer and sand in the bottom of my bag from 1 (or 5) of my beach trips. Never blinked.



*Disclaimer* I do not pretend to be a professional shooter by any means, I just know my way around guns well enough to have not shot myself in the leg. Yet.

[mk70ss]

I have 3 CZ pistols. I have never had one malfunction after thousands of rounds through them. I'm surprised at the number you had. I am thinking you got a substandard example of what are generally excellent guns in terms of reliability.

[TJB101]

I've put about 500 rounds through my P07 ... primarily all reloads. Not one hiccup to date. It is my new carry gun and I'm very comfortable with it. Kept loaded and decocked.

[tallball]

I have six CZ pistols or clones thereof. My FiL has three. None of them have any mechanical problems. In each case our 9mm version is our most accurate centerfire pistol.

[Walt Sherrill]

Failure to Chamber

I've owned a large number of CZs over the years, was a long-time moderator on the original CZ Forum for a number of years, and have followed discussions about the weapons on the 'net since the late 1990s.

The only time I've heard of CZs not going into battery was when 1) recoil springs were weak or, 2) with individual compact models which were produced with a shorter "free bore" than is appropriate. (Free bore is the area between the front of the chamber and the start of rifling. If that area is too short, any ammo that is a hair longer than spec can cause chambering issues. The problem may happen with full-size guns, but I've not heard of it there.

The failure to chamber could also be a problem with the ammo, especially if you roll your own. Overall length may just be almost-trivially too great.

Pushing the slide shut advances the unfired round into the chamber and, maybe, into the rifling. If you have this problem again, and your recoil spring is fresh, immediately open the slide and see if there are rifling marks on the bullet. If so, it probably means the free bore area needs to be enlarged.

If you bought the guns new, you can get CZ to fix the barrel; they might even do it if you bought it used. A local gunsmith can also fix the problem if you show him the evidence.

Shooting to the left

If you continue to shoot to the left after you've gotten familiar with the guns, and your finger is properly placed on the trigger, you can just tweak the rear sight position a hair to the right. The Brownell's Sight Correct Calculator can help. Click on the display when it opens:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=1...ion_Calculator

Extraction Problems

The design of the extractor (or more correctly, how it rests in a channel in the slide), makes it susceptible to gunk buildup underneath. You can try cleaning that area with solvents, etc. If there's gunk under the extractor, the extractor can't clamp down on the case rim as it should... and loses the casing being extracted (intermittently.)

Some of the competing CZ-pattern guns open up the back of the extractor inset, so that junk falls into the firing pin channel. I haven't figured out whether that's a good solution or something that can contribute to a different problem.

With early metal CZs extraction was a problem until Wolff developed an extra-strength extractor spring. CZ later upgraded that spring in new guns, and I haven't heard many complaints about the problem in recent years (although I don't participate on CZ forums much, nowdays.) You can remove the extractor and clean the area out; you can also get a new stronger extractor spring from Wolff Springs. (They were about $3 the last time I checked, but shipping costs may make it more painful. Get some extra-strength magazine, recoil, or lighter hammer springs while you're at it. ) Check the year of production with your 75B (it'll be shown in a small oval near the ejection port. If it's older, that may be part of the problem.

____________________

I still have several CZs and a couple of other CZ-pattern guns (including a Sphinx SDP). I like them all, especially the SDP, and a semi-custom AT-84s.

My first generation P-07 may be my favorite CZ. It's a great gun and very similar to the much-more costly (and slightly better) Sphinx SDP.

My next CZ, and the first "new" CZ in years, may be the P10c.

[JWT]

Had a CZ PCR for years. Still not sure why I sold it. I shot it quite a bit and never had any issues with it. Would definitely buy another one.

[railroader]

First off is the 75b under warranty? If it is let CZ fix the extraction issue. On the guns shooting left shoot the gun from a rest. If they still shoot left move the rear sight. Just because the rear sight is centered doesn't mean the gun is going to shoot to point of aim. I have a adjusted rear sights a few of my guns.

[sigarms228]

My CZ SP01 has been reliable through at least 500 rounds now.

My Son also has a CZ SP01 and it was a bit "ammo sensitive" for whatever reason. It worked great with most ammo but certain ammo like Federal White Box 9MM and others it would jam up on. He thought it was the ammo but we would swap and my SIG P226 never had a problem with the same ammo or any other ammo.

I will say that IMO Winchester White Box bulk packs are suspect. I am reading way lot of reports of shooters having issues with it that go away when they try a different brand ammo. I used WWB for years and still an working off old stock WWB from about 2005 with no problem myself. My preferred ammo these days is Speer Lawman and American Eagle now that I can be picky about what ammo I buy again LOL.

While I like my SP01 a whole lot I am not really interested in any other CZ other than the PCR possibly. There are just other pistols I like better - SIGs, HKs, and Walthers. If I dd not have a P228 already I probably would have bought a PCR by now and still might some day but no hurry.

[TunnelRat]

When it comes to the point of impact issue, while you say the Beretta was center it really isn't. Even that's shifted to the left, just not as much as the CZs. That would make me think the issue is shooter induced and something about the CZ brings it out more.


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[Tactical Jackalope]

Honestly, this is my experience with CZ pistols. I tend to stay away from them for the most part.

But I have seen the new P07s and P09s run like sewing machines. I guess it's the older ones I've seen act out the most.

[Independent George]

I haven't had any extractor issues, but I did have some failure to go into battery that were solved by lubing the slide rails. I took my PCR through a 2-day Frontsight skill builders course without issue, though the action was really, really gritty by the end; it functioned fine, but my DA shots sucked because of the rough trigger pull.

That said, if you're struggling on accuracy, then I'd move on instead of wasting more time and ammo on a gun that doesn't work for you; it sounds like the shooting ergonomics just don't suit you.

Not every gun is going to be great for every person; that's not a knock on you or the gun. I love everything about the Sig 226 except for how well I shoot with it (which is how I ended up with a CZ in the first place). Shooting is supposed to be fun, so don't waste time trying to convince yourself to like something you really don't.

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[ShootistPRS]

I have never had good experiences with semi-auto pistols. I owned a Colt 1911 combat commander that was junk from the first shot with failure to eject, fail to feed and failure to return to battery. I had a different 9mm that was so inaccurate that I sold it after trying to find ammo it would shoot for a month.
When I started thinking about joining the three gun shoot I knew that my revolvers would put me at a distinct disadvantage so I started looking. I wanted an all steel gun, large mag capacity and hammer fired - no decocking mechanism.
I did a lot of searching the feedback on different guns and I ended up with a CZ 75 B. It felt as good in my hand as my revolvers and had the weight that I wanted to minimize muzzle jump for fast follow up shots in competition.
I picked up four boxes of different ammo and headed to the range. I found it impossible to load 16 rounds in the magazine which I later cured with a speed loader device. As I always do with a new gun, I set the target at 10 feet and fired the first ten rounds taking my time to get used to the very low profile sights. I cleaned the gun and loaded the next mag into the gun with another ten rounds. This process used up 10 targets and two hundred rounds of various ammo. All the targets had fairly small groups (from ten feet I had expected smaller groups but a two inch 20 round group from a new gun is not too bad. All the groups were left of center an a bit low but very much in the same place even though I used 115, 124, and 147 grain bullets from different manufacturers. Again at ten feet you are too close to see much difference.
All 200 rounds went through the gun without a hint of any malfunctions. The gun still felt good to me so it was time to go home and load some test ammo.
To shorten this story I tested loads from listed starting loads up to listed maximum loads and then from the listed starting load down to see at what level the action would ail to function. I have yet to find a load that is soft enough to cause a malfunction but I stopped at 2.8 grains of powder with a 115 grain bullet. I did adjust the rear sight to center my groups and I have fired at 25 yards on paper and some slow work at 25 yards on falling plates. I am satisfied that the gun will be a good gun for competition. I have fired a couple of five shot groups at 25 yards that were under 1.5 inches and the gun is getting more comfortable. This is the first centerfire semi-auto pistol I have evr felt this good about. I would recommend CZ to anyone wanting to try a full size semi-auto gun. I'm still not a fan of semi-autos but this gun may change my mind.

[themalicious0ne]

I would try again with different ammo. My 75b has over 5,000 rounds through it and the only malfunction issues I have ever had were with wwb. I dont know why? It eats any other garbage brand ammo but in those 5k rounds, I have had 3 malfunctions exactly like yours and only ever on wwb.

CZ makes fantastic guns, maybe yours is a lemon, maybe it needs breaking in, who knows, but there is no one brand or gun that is best for everyone.

[Pilot]

Your 75B must be a lemon. I own a 75B, 75 Pre-B, 75D PCR, and 97B, and have not experienced any mechanical failures. They are very reliable. Also very accurate, and mine shoot point of aim.

[rickmelear]

I've had issues with a 75BD, played with recoil springs, extractor springs and finally realized it was a bad magazine. Slow learner. I bought a P07 about a year ago and it's been flawless, my new carry gun. Love my Walther PPQ and shoot it the best but simply don't trust the awesome trigger in times of extreme stress. I know all the rules, but trust the d/a first shot of the P07

[dgludwig]

Examine Walt Sherrill's post closely. When it comes to CZ pistols (and probably a lot of other things too), he knows what he's talking about. If your CZ pistol is not functioning right, there's something wrong past the design of the gun. CZ pistols have a good record for reliability. If they're not working right, look for magazine or ammunition issues. Otherwise, send it back to the factory for a "fix".

[ritepath]

I'm currently looking to get a P-01 for conceal carry for those times I don't mind the extra bulk and weight compared to my Shield or G2.

I have probably 6 or 7k rounds out my 75 omega other than a few out of spec reloads, I've had zero issues. My p-09 serves HD duty and hasn't failed period in 2-3k rounds.

Other than needing an LCPII, my next 3 or 4 pistols are sure to be CZ's.

I stopped worrying about shot placement when I stopped shooting at paper targets and migrated to 100% plates and gong shooting. If I can hit a 8 or 10" plate 15-25 yards I that's all I care about, and drawing and shooting the da first shot seems to be as easy as first shot hits with my strikers. My last two pistols I have never shot a paper target, I just started at 7 yards to learn initial hold and move out from there. With my 75 or 09 I can ring the 100yd gong easily 80-90% of the time once I take a few shots to get dialed in.

[SimulatedZero]

Thankfully the guns weren't mine, while that does throw a wrench in the process, it still left a bad taste in the mouth. The extractor didn't appear to be too dirty; however, I spent more time looking for a bend or worn edge.

TunnelRat - To be sure, I need some time working on my fundamentals in the wood shed, it was just a good comparison being as they were back to back.

I know some guns just don't fit right in the hand, but shooting physics is shooting physics. It takes knowing the pistol, the trigger, and the shooter's habits to line everything up. Time with the gun will smooth everything out in terms of accuracy and precision at speed.

The big thing was just the constant issues I was having with the gun. I never shoot Winchester so that might be it to be honest. To be honest, I always shot Remington PMC or local reloads. I know the PMC is cheap ammo, but I haven't had any issues with shooting or feeding. The reloads were local factory reloads and were pretty damn nice to be honest. I tended to shoot them for some matches just because I could keep the tight groups.

[SimulatedZero]

Walt - This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Someone who just knew the ins and outs of the gun.

It may have been an older model of 75B I was using, I'm not sure to be honest. I didn't have any failure to go into battery, just the failure to extract and the resulting double feed. This thing wasn't even stripping the rounds from the barrel. I didn't notice any signs of rifling on the cases, but I wasn't looking.

I'm leaning towards an extractor spring possibly, which is good to know. I'm sure the WWB ammo didn't help at all, but if I can spend a few dollars and turn an ok gun into a great gun, I'm all for it. I know some people care about have a functional gun out of the box, which is a big point, but as long as I get a fully functional weapon that can slug out the abuse I'm known to give, why not.

I'm still leaning towards the P07. I'm going to rent one of each and try a different one to see if was just that gun.

The only complaints I had with the P07 were the light weight and the far forward slide stop release. The long reach on the double action was annoying, but I don't plan on firing the weapon in double action much more than to being able to function well with it. The light weight made the recoil a little sharper than I was used to and may be why I drifted up a bit? If I do my job right, I'll control the pistol and that won't be an issue. It was similar in that aspect to my Shield almost.

What are some good parts to really dial in the P07 and is there any trade off in durability / reliability?

[armoredman]

If you like the P-07 you might just love the P-09, the P-07's big brother. I had mine worked on by Cajun Gun Works, (because I could - the gun was just fine the way it was), and it's awesome now. The only failures I've really had with CZs off the top of my head has been my own reloads - the SP-01 Phantom is fussy about the short chamber issue, and it looks like my P-10C might also not be overly fond of my cast bullet I always use, the Lee 124gr TL powder coated, though they both shoot it well to point of aim. The P-09 eats everything, burps and asks for more.
If you get a P-07 and you want top of the line parts, look no further than Cajun Gun Works. Those guys know exactly what they are doing and stand behind their work 100%.
You said you like strikers - have you had a chance to try the P-10C yet? It's really showing a lot of promise if you want to stay in the CZ lineup.
If CZ doesn't work out for you, that's OK - if we all liked exactly the same thing this would be a very boring world. I'm just kind of partial to the brand.

[Spats McGee]

I'm just stopping by to say: Welcome to TFL, SimulatedZero!

[jr24]

I didn't see if you specified the exact ammo you used, but my P07 when nee was pretty stiffly sprung. This meant that powderpuff 115 grain target loads choked it during the first few hundred rounds.

Carry ammo or my heavier reloads ran just fine. After a few hundred it could run 115s again.

[chaim]

If you like the P07, don't let the issues you had shooting one 75B that isn't yours (you have no idea how it has been maintained or what inadvisable home gunsmithing has been done on it) worry you. Most of the posts I see about CZ reliability is about how great they are. I have a CZ 75B that I've had for quite some time. I stopped counting my rounds through the gun roughly a decade ago when I hit 10,000 rounds, and I'm probably around 20K now. I have had in that 10-20K rounds fewer hiccups than you had in that one range trip. I had a CZ 40B for a year or so that was perfect with about 500-1000 rounds, and last I talked to the new owner about it (a few years ago), he had put many thousands of rounds through it and neither of us ever had a hiccup with it. I also have a P01 I recently bought (September), I don't have many rounds through it yet but no problems at this point.

So, if you like the P07, go ahead and get one. I doubt you'll be sorry.

As for hitting to the left, if you buy one and that continues, you can always adjust the sight to compensate.

[Rockrivr1]

In the state of Mass CZs are very hard to come by due to stupid gun laws here, so you pay a premium for one. Like the OP I very much wanted a 75B and after months of hunting I found one at a less then rape price. I really wanted to like it a lot. Unfortunately it wasn't the case. I got one that has a bad trigger slap to it. I know I can get it fixed, but I haven't yet and my experience with it has turned me off of CZs. I keep it now as an investment as they are worth much more now in this state then what I paid for it. Though I have contemplated trading it for a Browning Hi Power (Another verbatim firearm in this state)

[jetinteriorguy]

My first CZ was a P09, great gun. Extremely accurate, actually boringly so, and 100% reliable. Like a dumbbell I traded it off. Then after a couple years I picked up a P07, for me it's the perfect pistol. It practically shoots itself. Then a couple months ago I picked up a 75B SA, what a fun gun. Also very very accurate and so far 100% reliable. So for me, CZ guns are winners.