ATF Project Gunrunner - Page 72

**Tom Servo** · December 30, 2011, 11:15 PM

Quote:

All politics aside which is where this thread is nose diving

I assure you that wasn't my intention. In fact, BGutzman made the point far more succinctly.

Yes, we should be angry about this. The problem is, for the majority, the anger ends at the keyboard, or at the dinner table, and it only spurs action among a minority.

pax · December 30, 2011, 11:45 PM

Tom's right. The world is run by those who show up.

pax

BGutzman · December 31, 2011, 11:25 PM

Lets see what kind of Citizen/Agent body count the DOJ/ATF run up in the new year......

alan · January 1, 2012, 07:13 PM

BGutzman wrote:

Lets see what kind of Citizen/Agent body count the DOJ/ATF run up in the new year......

That might prove a most interesting number to kerep track of.

MTT TL · January 1, 2012, 07:15 PM

The first FBI agent of the year is dead. He was killed while picking up his father's cancer medication at the pharmacy. While there the pharmacy was robbed and he tried to stop it. Still want to keep track?

thallub · January 1, 2012, 08:31 PM

Quote:

The first FBI agent of the year is dead. He was killed while picking up his father's cancer medication at the pharmacy

He was a BATFE agent.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/a...G6WmsPbdcQfiiP

MTT TL · January 1, 2012, 08:48 PM

In that case it is a-ok right? We will just ignore the sacrifices made by the agents in this thread to do justice?

MLeake · January 1, 2012, 08:57 PM

MTT TL, I think you are putting words in his mouth, and I'm not sure they fit what he was saying.

Please bear in mind, most of us realize this all came to light due to agents who first tried to stop F&F, and then blew the whistle when they were unable to derail it.

Most of us realize that field agents generally do not set policy.

I doubt many, if any, of us are gloating over dead FBI, BATFE, or other agents.

And I am pretty sure BGutzman was referring to agent casualties caused by F&F guns, specifically.

MTT TL · January 1, 2012, 09:08 PM

ok, regardless I think it is crass.

MLeake · January 1, 2012, 09:26 PM

Perhaps, but I think he meant it from the perspective of somebody who thinks the field agents have been sold out by the policy-makers. IE, he isn't celebrating a body count, he's blaming Holder et al for impending agent deaths.

MTT TL · January 1, 2012, 10:38 PM

It is political.

My point is that we are no better than they are if the intent is to use dead agents as a political football. We should be better than that.

alan · January 1, 2012, 11:20 PM

MTT TLwrote:

ok, regardless I think it is crass,

To which I would say, that there are things that are very much worse than "crass".

MTT TL · January 1, 2012, 11:33 PM

True, but as one of my mentors used to say; "if we are going to be dealing with people dying we may as well do it tastefully."

HiBC · January 2, 2012, 12:32 AM

By writing this,I,myself,am guilty of what I am pointing out!

But in the last 20 posts or so,seems to be a lot of banter that isn't really about f+f.

BTW,on the "body count",I,too,believe the loss of agents and officers should be treated with respect..

I find it interesting that Holder played the race card.

I only hear a little bit mentioned about the fact,Fast and Furious,as an operation,could not help but cause terror,death,and suffering of the Mexican National people .

Imagine being a Mexican citizen living in proximity to the f+f AK-47 in the hands of the drug thugs.

If,as has been suggested,the intent was to use outrage from Mexico to compromise the 2nd Ammendment,then "collateral damage" from the arms was premeditated.

The INTENT of F+F was innocent people being killed in large numbers by the weapons sold from gun dealerships in the USA.

The killing and outrage was the intent.It would bring Power for Change from the Anger.

While Mr Holder plays the race card,apparently that collateral damage was an acceptable price to pay for the crisis necessary to disarm us via international pressure.

Somehow,it only became significant when a US agent was murdered.

I agree,lets respect the loss of the agent.

I think,if we look,more folks have been getting killed around the border,some from F+F guns,than have been getting killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Some of those are bad guy criminals.Many of them are people who resisted bad guy criminals.Good people.Maybe they just said "No" to drugs.

Just like USA Agents,they are people with mothers,fathers,children,spouses,friends,etc.

Are those lives any less important than our ATF agent?

Ends justify the means??

Tell me about the race card again,Mr Holder.

jimpeel · January 2, 2012, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTT TL

The first FBI agent of the year is dead. He was killed while picking up his father's cancer medication at the pharmacy. While there the pharmacy was robbed and he tried to stop it. Still want to keep track?

It could have been friendly fire that killed him.

From the story:

Quote:

All three lawmen men descended on the would-be thief. During the ensuing melee, someone’s gun went off, and Capano was shot.

Sources said it was unclear whose weapon fired at the Long Island dad, but investigators are probing to see if it was the retired lieutenant’s gun.

jimpeel · January 2, 2012, 03:19 AM

Back on topic, this from CNS News 12-29-2011:

SOURCE

Quote:

‘Fast and Furious’ Linked to Immunity Deal Between U.S. and Sinaloa Cartel, Trafficking Defendant Alleges in Court Papers
By Edwin Mora
December 29, 2011

(CNSNews.com) – An alleged Mexican drug trafficker awaiting trial in a Chicago federal court claims that the notorious Sinaloa cartel received weapons from “Operation Fast and Furious” under an alleged immunity agreement that the U.S. government made with cartel leaders, in exchange for information on rival gangs.

The defendant in a trafficking case before the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois, Vicente Jesus Zambada-Niebla, also claims the immunity deal allowed the criminal cartel to “continue to smuggle tons of illicit drugs” into the United States.

<MORE>

If what this guy says is true, it is a damning indictment on the purposes of F&F. No deal like this could ever have been consummated by some lowly agent in Phoenix as they would have us believe.

jgcoastie · January 2, 2012, 03:55 AM

Holy s***.

MTT TL · January 2, 2012, 10:14 AM

Quote:

If what this guy says is true, it is a damning indictment on the purposes of F&F. No deal like this could ever have been consummated by some lowly agent in Phoenix as they would have us believe.

It is a sad state when we have to wonder who is telling the truth:

- A known confessed drug lord

- The head of the Department of Justice

brickeyee · January 2, 2012, 03:20 PM

As soon as a few FBI or BATFE agents quit over what they have seen they might get a lot more sympathy.

I have refused jobs, and quit jobs over what I decided was management illegal activity.

They ended up prosecuted in less than a year, and forced to retire in another case after only a few months.

You are known by the company you keep, and choosing to stay means you made a decision.

MTT TL · January 2, 2012, 03:26 PM

Quote:

You are known by the company you keep, and choosing to stay means you made a decision.

I suppose not. Since I have served under every President From Reagen to Obama I could have quit lots of times for differences of opinion over the years as well as illegal activity by all of them. But I did not sign up for the military because of Reagen and did not stay because of Clinton. It was never about the commander in chief and I seriously doubt any agent signed on because "whoever" the current political stooge was in office.

jgcoastie · January 2, 2012, 03:26 PM

Quote:

You are known by the company you keep, and choosing to stay means you made a decision.

True story.

zxcvbob · January 2, 2012, 04:22 PM

I wish some of the agents would realize that they are cannon fodder for the AG's political goals and do something... preemptive.

BTW, has Eric Holder looked a little depressed lately?

**Aguila Blanca** · January 2, 2012, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTT TL

It is a sad state when we have to wonder who is telling the truth:

- A known confessed drug lord

- The head of the Department of Justice

Speak for yourself.

I don't have any doubt which is the more credible testimony.

pnac · January 3, 2012, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL
It is a sad state when we have to wonder who is telling the truth:

- A known confessed drug lord

- The head of the Department of Justice

Speak for yourself.

I don't have any doubt which is the more credible testimony.

In the case of gnacio Ramos and Jose Compean, the Feds supported the drug runner instead of the Border Patrol agents. Who is credible depends on what agenda the Feds want to push.

brickeyee · January 3, 2012, 11:28 AM

Quote:

But I did not sign up for the military

We are talking about BATFE and the FBI last time I looked.

December 30, 2011, 11:45 PM	#1777
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Tom's right. The world is run by those who show up. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

December 31, 2011, 11:25 PM	#1778
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	Lets see what kind of Citizen/Agent body count the DOJ/ATF run up in the new year...... __________________ Molon Labe Last edited by BGutzman; January 1, 2012 at 01:44 PM.

January 1, 2012, 07:15 PM	#1780
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	The first FBI agent of the year is dead. He was killed while picking up his father's cancer medication at the pharmacy. While there the pharmacy was robbed and he tried to stop it. Still want to keep track? __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

January 1, 2012, 08:48 PM	#1782
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	In that case it is a-ok right? We will just ignore the sacrifices made by the agents in this thread to do justice? __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

January 1, 2012, 09:08 PM	#1784
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	ok, regardless I think it is crass. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

January 1, 2012, 07:13 PM	#1779
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	BGutzman wrote: Lets see what kind of Citizen/Agent body count the DOJ/ATF run up in the new year...... That might prove a most interesting number to kerep track of.

January 1, 2012, 08:57 PM	#1783
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	MTT TL, I think you are putting words in his mouth, and I'm not sure they fit what he was saying. Please bear in mind, most of us realize this all came to light due to agents who first tried to stop F&F, and then blew the whistle when they were unable to derail it. Most of us realize that field agents generally do not set policy. I doubt many, if any, of us are gloating over dead FBI, BATFE, or other agents. And I am pretty sure BGutzman was referring to agent casualties caused by F&F guns, specifically.

January 1, 2012, 09:26 PM	#1785
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Perhaps, but I think he meant it from the perspective of somebody who thinks the field agents have been sold out by the policy-makers. IE, he isn't celebrating a body count, he's blaming Holder et al for impending agent deaths.

January 1, 2012, 10:38 PM	#1786
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	It is political. My point is that we are no better than they are if the intent is to use dead agents as a political football. We should be better than that. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war. Last edited by MTT TL; January 1, 2012 at 10:44 PM.

January 1, 2012, 11:20 PM	#1787
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	MTT TLwrote: ok, regardless I think it is crass, To which I would say, that there are things that are very much worse than "crass".

January 1, 2012, 11:33 PM	#1788
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	True, but as one of my mentors used to say; "if we are going to be dealing with people dying we may as well do it tastefully." __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

January 2, 2012, 12:32 AM	#1789
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	By writing this,I,myself,am guilty of what I am pointing out! But in the last 20 posts or so,seems to be a lot of banter that isn't really about f+f. BTW,on the "body count",I,too,believe the loss of agents and officers should be treated with respect.. I find it interesting that Holder played the race card. I only hear a little bit mentioned about the fact,Fast and Furious,as an operation,could not help but cause terror,death,and suffering of the Mexican National people . Imagine being a Mexican citizen living in proximity to the f+f AK-47 in the hands of the drug thugs. If,as has been suggested,the intent was to use outrage from Mexico to compromise the 2nd Ammendment,then "collateral damage" from the arms was premeditated. The INTENT of F+F was innocent people being killed in large numbers by the weapons sold from gun dealerships in the USA. The killing and outrage was the intent.It would bring Power for Change from the Anger. While Mr Holder plays the race card,apparently that collateral damage was an acceptable price to pay for the crisis necessary to disarm us via international pressure. Somehow,it only became significant when a US agent was murdered. I agree,lets respect the loss of the agent. I think,if we look,more folks have been getting killed around the border,some from F+F guns,than have been getting killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. Some of those are bad guy criminals.Many of them are people who resisted bad guy criminals.Good people.Maybe they just said "No" to drugs. Just like USA Agents,they are people with mothers,fathers,children,spouses,friends,etc. Are those lives any less important than our ATF agent? Ends justify the means?? Tell me about the race card again,Mr Holder.

January 2, 2012, 03:55 AM	#1792
jgcoastie Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 2,118	Holy s*. __________________ "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."** -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.

January 2, 2012, 03:20 PM	#1794
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	As soon as a few FBI or BATFE agents quit over what they have seen they might get a lot more sympathy. I have refused jobs, and quit jobs over what I decided was management illegal activity. They ended up prosecuted in less than a year, and forced to retire in another case after only a few months. You are known by the company you keep, and choosing to stay means you made a decision. Last edited by brickeyee; January 3, 2012 at 11:27 AM.

January 2, 2012, 04:22 PM	#1797
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I wish some of the agents would realize that they are cannon fodder for the AG's political goals and do something... preemptive. BTW, has Eric Holder looked a little depressed lately? __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth