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Old August 14, 2007, 09:04 PM   #26
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Maybe the sword guy could have lived with the other guy who said they didn't have to kill him.
You know, I was thinking the same thing as I read it.

Seems as if those who don't actually have to face the tiger always call for lesser measures...
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Old August 14, 2007, 09:23 PM   #27
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Seems as if those who don't actually have to face the tiger always call for lesser measures...

How true!!!
“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides
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Old August 14, 2007, 10:35 PM   #28
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I noticed that citizen Oleson didn't just walk over and take that sword from "knife boy". Yet, he thinks the oficer should have done some fancy " shoot him in the leg" trick...for what? To save that fine example of a neighborhood threat? :barf: Alaska is better off.

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Old August 15, 2007, 04:15 PM   #29
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I had a friend(Marine Corps officer) who was within a few feet of a Marine who was sliced from his left sholder socket to his right hip with a sword. His upper torso was connected to his lower body by a thin strap of skin on his right side.

The sword weilder was a Japanese Major (big fat guy). The Jap had 9 rounds of .30 carbine into him before he did his slicing thing.

Edged weapons are very dangerous!
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Old August 15, 2007, 05:26 PM   #30
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A Katana can JACK. YOU. UP. If the facts are as presented (subject closing distance on officer, where he was "backed into a corner"), then wholly justified shooting. Of course, I do not trust a cop as far as I can throw one, to not allege they are being closed upon, when they are not, having seen cops lie like rugs repeatedly. Most likely he's telling the truth, but you just never know. This is why we have juries.

", Campbell said."
That's the key phrase in the "advancing/backing into corner" allegation - there is nothing in the story which quotes a witness who was there, which says that the subject was "advancing" on the officer; rather, there is only the statement of a person who wasN'T there (the police Sgt), who has a strong interest in protecting the justifibility of it. I'm not alleging ANYTHING here, folks - just critically thinking; that's all.

The recording was not released to the public
Hmm, now why would that be?
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Old August 15, 2007, 06:03 PM   #31
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"I don't see how they can justify the shooting," Oleson said. "The guy had a sword. They're equipped with Tasers and mace ... He didn't have to kill the guy."
I trained and competed in martial arts for 17 years. I would have shot the guy too. Maybe the guy who said the cop didn't need to shoot should be given a can of OC spray while another guy tries to hack him into dog food with a katana. Some folks seem to think a sword is some kind of toy.
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Old August 16, 2007, 12:38 AM   #32
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Any body catch that it was in a trailer park?
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Old August 16, 2007, 02:34 PM   #33
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Any body catch that it was in a trailer park?

What difference does it make where it was? Trailer park or Mall the outcome would have been the same
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Old August 16, 2007, 02:49 PM   #34
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Suicide by cop

Seems like a clear case of suicide by cop. Guy was distraught and wanted to die but didn't have the cojones to turn the sword (or other weapon) on himself. He may not have actually attacked the officer with the sword had he got within range, but why chance it? Good shoot.

Bottom line is cops aren't social workers and shouldn't be in situations like this. Guy with sword = lethal threat. Lethal threat = justifiable use of lethal force.

That all being said, I'd be real surprised if what he actually had could be truly considered a Katana. Probably a cheap knockoff meant more for display than for use, but still dangerous. I doubt it could reasonably be compared to a WWII Japanese issue weapon that could split you from ---hole to appetite with one swing.
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Old August 17, 2007, 01:40 PM   #35
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Some folks seem to think a sword is some kind of toy.
Yeah, a toy that was THE most advanced weapon ever held by man for a thousand years, maybe more. And unlike a firearm, designed with one and only one purpose in mind, to take human life, and very efficiently at that.

Anyone ever heard the old saying about not bringing a knife to a gunfight?
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Old August 17, 2007, 01:56 PM   #36
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I think the issue is that most peoples' experience with a "sword" is those awful stainless wobbly things from flea markets that couldn't cut cardboard, and that would just fly apart if you tried.

A real katana made of folded, beaten and tempered carbon steel can be frightfully sharp, and a slash with one can cause a deep, deep laceration or cut someone's throat in the blink of an eye. Think of it as a really long straight razor. They were slashing swords, not whacking swords.

And unfortunately, when someone is waving one around, there's no way to tell whether it's a $10 flea market dull junker or a $700 actual sharp one, and if the officer is wrong, they can be dead in a hurry.

Thus, shoot.
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Old August 18, 2007, 03:18 PM   #37
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Would they have complained if the BG had been tasered and the extra metal he was holding made it lethal? It seems I remember a few weeks ago cops somewhere set someone on fire with one. Or I wonder if the cop had a sword and the BG had a gun and the cop decapitated him would there be an outcry then? Does this come up in Japan as an issue?
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Old August 18, 2007, 03:33 PM   #38
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Maned Wolf...

That photograph from Raiders of the Lost Ark is epic win! As for this shooting incident, I've trained with melee weapons back in high school. By all means if someone with a large bladed weapon is coming at me, there's no way I'm going to put up with it if I had the choice between pepper spray, baton, tazer, and gun. This officer did right, it was either him or the lunatic. 'Nuff said!

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Old August 18, 2007, 03:49 PM   #39
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I agree that it was a suicide by cop.anyone yelling "kill me" while swinging a sword is asking for it(no pun intended)!
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Old August 20, 2007, 06:05 PM   #40
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And The Decision Is:

Man shot by officer reportedly had threatened women
VIOLENT END: Women who knew the Juneau man say they weren't surprised.

The Associated Press

(Published: August 20, 2007)

JUNEAU -- The man shot and killed by a Juneau police officer had a history of threats to women, according to those who knew him.

Randall Clevenger, 40, was killed Aug. 10 by a 16-year police veteran, Sgt. Paul Hatch, after aggressively threatening Hatch with a 4-foot sword. The officer had responded to a domestic violence call.

Last week, the Juneau District Attorney concluded Hatch had no option but to shoot after Clevenger refused repeated orders to stop and continued advancing on the officer, trapping him against a truck.

"Sgt. Hatch went beyond what Alaska law required of him in terms of retreat as a police officer," district attorney Doug Gardner said in a written statement.

Women in Clevenger's life said they were not surprised that he died in violence.

"I knew at some point it would happen," said Rebecca Clevenger of Brainard, Mo., who was married to Clevenger for 17 years.

She said Clevenger lost his potential to years of drugs and alcohol.

Randall Clevenger spent eight years in the Army and moved to Juneau in 2001, working most recently in the Fred Meyer delicatessen.

Beki Kruger, a cousin who lives in Kansas City, Mo., said her cousin was a quiet man who didn't yell before serving in the 1990-91 Persian Gulf War. Though he never faced combat, he came back a different man, she said.

"He sat around cleaning guns and sharpening knives," she said. "That's where the obsession came from."

Randall Clevenger told her the war changed him.

"He came back agitated and violent," Kruger said. Then, within months, his newborn daughter died.

On Aug. 10, Clevenger and ex-girlfriend Werna Biggler fought over a lost phone number. Police and witnesses say alcohol was involved. Though they had broken up, they still lived together.

Biggler and a friend, Tina Doak, left the house. Clevenger caught up with them and held Biggler by the throat, knife to her belly, Doak said.

"He told me, 'I'm going to kill her. I'm going to kill myself,' " she said.

Someone in a passing car called 911.

Doak said Clevenger's worst fear was being alone.

"His wife left him, Werna left him, and his kids are gone," she said.

Clevenger's threats to harm or kill that day were not his first. In 1995 Clevenger threatened to cut his wife's throat with a sword if she ever left him. He also threatened to kill himself.

In 1999 he assaulted an officer and had a knife collection confiscated while living in Missouri, Rebecca Clevenger said.

While divorcing him seven years later, she filed a restraining order for threats to kill her and take their children. She said he hit one child with a rifle stock and smoked marijuana with both.

One night while drunk he waved a gun in her face.

"He violated every protection order I ever had," she said.

In November 2006, when arguing with his wife over their divorce, he threatened to take on the whole Juneau Police Department, according to court records.

In May, a neighbor also filed for a protective order, saying Clevenger threatened her and her children. He claimed she was spreading rumors and hurting his chances of finding work or a place to live.

The magistrate denied the request. A judge also denied a long-term restraining order Rebecca Clevenger requested in November 2006.

In all, six protective orders were sought against Clevenger in Juneau by two women -- three 20-day orders and three six-month orders. Four were granted.

WildgoodshootAlaska TM
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Old August 20, 2007, 08:26 PM   #41
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The OP put me in mind of something that I was involved in many years ago. My situation put some perspective in the above scenario for me.

Back in the mid '60's I was sent to a call about an unidentified young man being found in the kitchen of a home, rooting around in the refrigerator. He had ran off. I started to patrol the neighborhood and found other folks in the street reporting a young man (stocky teenager) trying to enter other homes and that he appeared agitated. It was in the middle of the afternoon.

About a block over, I saw a young man with something long in his hand walk up a driveway away from the sidewalk. I drove up, exited the cruiser and went up the driveway after him. I had a nightstick in my hand as well as my holstered revolver.

I went into the backyard and about 25 feet from me was the young man. The object I'd seen turned out to be a machete. He was facing me. I waggled my nightstick at him and told him to put the machete down. I was also unsnapping my holster and beginning to take out my revolver. He let out a shout and threw the machete into the ground in front of him. I secured him and took him to the cruiser. It turned out that he was was emotionally impaired, had walked out of his home in the area and was lost, frightened, hungry and thirsty. Who knows where he found the machete or why he was carrying it. He was unable to talk only able to make garbled noises.

The point of all of this was how fast all of this occurred, and how little information one might have in the moment. From the time I saw him in the back yard to when he threw the machete down was only seconds. He could have ran at me, or began to throw the machete at me and I would have had to make a very serious decision in a matter of a few heartbeats. If it came to deadly force, center of mass would have been my only choice. Sometimes one doesn't have the time or latitude to think about various options, just react to training.

Sorry if I veered this thread, but the job of police officer sometimes presents difficult scenarios and difficult decisions. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback; not so easy to be forced to make a tough decision in a heartbeat.
I feel sorry for the Sgt. He'll have to live with his decision, even though it appears to be the only one he could have made.
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Last edited by grampster; August 20, 2007 at 09:03 PM.
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Old August 20, 2007, 09:08 PM   #42
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Seems to have been many warnings that something along these lines may happen.
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Old August 21, 2007, 01:09 AM   #43
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Another suicide buy cop vote

Raiders pic rules.file another one DSAF,nice shooting.
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Old August 21, 2007, 01:13 AM   #44
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Just feel for the officer and his family that they have to go thru the inevitable BS for this genious and his actions.:barf::barf::barf:
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Old August 21, 2007, 04:09 PM   #45
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In Cape Girardeau, MO...

...there was a reserve officer that was stationed at the ER one Sat. night. A drunk driver was admitted to the ER and while he was being treated treated for injuries received in the collision, his brother arrived. This dude was also drunk and demanded that he be allowed in where they were treating his bro. When the hospital staff refused he became combative and drew a lock blade knife from it's sheath. The reserve officer intervened and ordered him to put the knife down. The guy refused and took a step in the direction of the LEO who immediately double tapped him with his .357. End of fight.

The officer was eventually cleared but was forced to leave the reserve.
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Old August 22, 2007, 02:28 AM   #46
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Beki Kruger, a cousin who lives in Kansas City, Mo., said her cousin was a quiet man who didn't yell before serving in the 1990-91 Persian Gulf War. Though he never faced combat, he came back a different man, she said.

"He sat around cleaning guns and sharpening knives," she said. "That's where the obsession came from."

Randall Clevenger told her the war changed him.
As a war veteran, and currently serving reservist, this kind of b.s. just pisses me off. The jerkoff never saw combat, but "the war changed him"? If I had a dime for every criminal jerkoff who blamed military service for their own criminal behavior, or the idiots who continue to perpetuate this lie, I'd be a millionaire.
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Old August 24, 2007, 10:20 PM   #47
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shoot him in the leg?

I thought Alaskans were smarter than that. Yeah some guys coming toward me with a sword and I'm going to shoot him in the leg... mo's, all of 'em!
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Old August 25, 2007, 06:41 PM   #48
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Unquestionably a righteous shoot! Mr. Oleson should shut, the frig, up. My sympathies are entirely with Sergeant Hatch. He did what he had to do and fulfilled the first rule of all savvy police work: 'Do everything you can to make sure you go home alive at the end of your shift.'

As far as I'm concerned, Clevenger demonstrated himself to be a brute; and he, finally, got his earnestly requested last wish. Good riddance!
'Things go wrong. The odds catch up. Probability is like gravity; and, you cannot negotiate with gravity. One other thing: God always has the last laugh. You need to remember that!'
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Old September 4, 2007, 06:32 PM   #49
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Any distance inside 20-22 yards of a sword would have me worried, cant say I would have done differently
Not to be picky, but I think you mean 20-22 feet (as in the Tueller Drill), not that I wouldn't be worried about someone closing on me in anger with a katana fro 20 yards
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Old September 5, 2007, 02:26 PM   #50
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Most here know a person with a knife can be deadly within the 20ft range. A sword, much more so. Even a bullet wound that later is fatal, might not actually stop the guy right away, and he could inflict crippling, if not fatal wounds to the officer. Were I in his place, my pistol barrel would be too hot to touch, for all the rounds I'd be sending the perp's way.
The bystanders are just ignorant about these things.

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