Frustrated: Can't chamber .357 in lever action

dsv424 · February 20, 2009, 12:50 AM

Hey guys hopefully someone can help me. I'm reloading .357's for a Puma lever action rifle and when I try to chamber the round it jams from the feed ramp going into the barrel. It appears to be catching on the edge of the case mouth. The bullet is a 140 gr jhp and the book I'm using calls for a COAL of 1.290". It probably does have something to do with the diameter of the case mouth but I'm a newbie and am not sure of how to make this diameter smaller. I measured a factory round at the case mouth(which loads just fine) and it was .374" and my round is .377". Also there does seem to be a slightly bigger "lip" where the case mouth meets the bullet on my round. Please let me know if this where I "goofed" and how I can correct it. The other calipers I make do not have this problem and chamber just fine but my other guns aren't lever actions.

BerettaFox · February 20, 2009, 12:59 AM

are you using a FCD or anything like that? sounds like it's that...

rg1 · February 20, 2009, 01:11 AM

Most manuals I have call for an overall length from 1.560-1.590" with 140 grain JHP bullets. Does your 140 JHP bullet have a cannelure and are you roll crimping the case mouth into the cannelure? I've found that the overall length should put the case mouth near the middle of the cannelure on bullets I use. I'd try to load a few dummy rounds with no powder or primer and cycle them thru your rifle at longer overall lengths.

Gbro · February 20, 2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

The bullet is a 140 gr jhp and the book I'm using calls for a COAL of 1.290".

That 1.290 of yours must be a typo, as the .357 case is 1.290.
You need to look at the crimping set for your die.

dsv424 · February 20, 2009, 09:52 AM

RG, I'm using the Lee Deluxe Pistol Die set and I thought that the bullet seating die removed the flare cased by the powder die I also use the factory crimp die last. I noticed when I run the case thru the bullet seat die it seems to be catching on the case mouth on the way in the die and on the out of the die but since I'm a newbie I don't know if this is normal at all. It does the samething when I run it thru the factory crimp die(catching on the case mouth). In fact one time I got a round stuck in the factory crimp die and I had to use a lot of force to pull the lever up to get the round out it was stuck on the case mouth. I know I got something set wrong but I just don't know what it is. Also not sure what a "roll crimp" is.

dsv424 · February 20, 2009, 09:55 AM

Sorry GBRo, your right I meant 1.590" for COAL

TATER · February 20, 2009, 10:13 AM

Reread your Seating Die setup instructions. Your die has to go
Down some more and the seating stem will need to back out to
Compensate.

tomgun · February 20, 2009, 10:34 AM

your rifle tuning is out.
get some factory loads and adjust the screws on the right side till there smooth.

dsv424 · February 20, 2009, 11:34 AM

Tomgun, not sure what you mean. Factory rounds chamber just fine in the Puma. Only my reloads won't chamber. They get hung up on the case lip but if I pull the lever back a little I can lift the back of the bullet up and slide it in the barrel just fine.

wwmkwood · February 21, 2009, 09:58 AM

If it's catching on the case mouth you aren't putting enough crimp in it. You may be over expanding the mouth of the case with the expander die, this would cause it to jam going into the seating die and the crimp die.

Starting with the expanding issue, only expand the mouth of the case far enough to start the bullet without scrapping copper off.

The factory crimp die for roll crimped pistol rounds rounds the belling created with the expander die back into the bullet. This creates a smooth rounded step unlike the sharp lip needed for semi-auto rimless pistol rounds.

I hope this helps

**Mal H** · February 21, 2009, 10:57 AM

Sounds to me like you're using a taper crimp die instead of a roll crimp. In either case, as several have already mentioned, there isn't enough of a crimp. You should consider bullet seating and crimping in two separate operations.

Sevens · February 21, 2009, 11:40 AM

There's no way he's using a taper crimp die... he has a Lee Deluxe Pistol die set. There's no taper crimp die in that set for .38 or .357 Mag.

He could be flaring the case mouth WAY too much. He could be crimping the round too little.

Try this -- it WILL cost you one piece of brass that gets ruined, and one bullet also.

Size the case... prime the case... don't flare the mouth at all, then try to seat a bullet. Do you see how the brass gets wrecked, how the bullet can't enter that case mouth?

You need to set your mouth flaring die up as per the insructions -- and the very least you can get away with is EXACTLY what you want.

If you flare a case so much that it looks like the top of a funnel, you've very much over-done it. For jacketed bullets, you should be flaring the case mouth just a tiny bit, even so little that it's hard to see with the naked eye. You should be able to place a bullet on it so the bullet sits right there, waiting to be seated, and sits evenly on the case.

I would suggest you take a long look at the instructions for setting up your dies and double checking that you are set up properly.

alsmith · February 21, 2009, 02:41 PM

I used to have a similar problem with an 1894 Marlin.

Started crimping as a separate step with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Now, no problem.

Al

dsv424 · February 21, 2009, 06:36 PM

Thanks for all your advise guys. With all the info I got I found out I had two problems: 1. I was flaring the case too much. 2. I increased the crimp on the FCD by half a turn. Now the Puma .38/.357 cycles beautifully with the new reloads. Thanks again for the advise, being a newbie I'm trying to be very careful before I squeeze that trigger for the first time.

Sevens · February 21, 2009, 11:26 PM

Take something from the experience -- try and figure out why you flared the case mouth too much. Did you set the die as the instructions said? Do you simply screw it in and look at it, and figure, "looks good?"

I'm not trying to break your balls, but if it were a semi-auto round and you flared it way too much and you had a bullet setback, you'd be arranging one big part of a catastrophic failure. "Kabooms" are often the result of a number of things that, when added together, push things over the edge.

There's a good margin of safety built in to this hobby. Each firearm is built and designed to specifically handle more pressure than the cartridge is supposed to create at max load. And SAAMI sets the standard and the folks who produce the powder and the load data know it, and they all try to steer you in the right direction.

When someone goofs with max loads without proper load development... or inserts magnum primers in to an already max load... or uses load data meant for different shaped bullets... or bullets of a different physical makeup... or a reloader has a scale with a wandering zero... many/most of these things will not blow up a handgun if taken all by itself.

But when one or more of these conditions are met... and a bullet sets back in it's case and the internal volume is decreased by a large margin... pistols start to come apart. I believe this is how so many .40 cal Glock pistols have met their demise. (you talk about a bad reputation!)

Too much case mouth flare on a semi-auto round that is violently shucked in to the chamber with force is a serious problem waiting to ruin someone's day.

I'd suggest you smash a case or two while trying to figure out exactly how much too little case mouth flare is. Then, flare a tiny bit more.

Look at it like your powder charge. Better to start low and work up, then to start high and work lower.

dsv424 · February 23, 2009, 04:12 PM

Seven, thanks for scaring the crap out of me. I'm already very leary about squeezing the trigger for the first as I stated in my last post. LOL But seriously that is why I'm asking all these questions first and I will not sqeeze the trigger until I feel completely confindent that I have done all I can to be sure I have done it right. I also have a 10mm Glock I am reloading and did not have any problems at all with that round and was smiling from ear to ear when I successfully shot my very first reloads with it. I'm having a blast reloading, however, I want to also be as safe as possible so I thank you for your words of wisdom as with everyone else that has helped me with my .357 dilema.

Sevens · February 23, 2009, 05:56 PM

Don't mean to scare anyone's crap out!
But like I said, there's lots of built-in safeguards and you almost have to break a number of rules to position yourself for "the perfect storm" and have some kind of catastrophic failure.

I'm sure that most folks who go through the long process of picking out equipment, chasing down load data and gathering up components are also the kind of guys who realize the care involved in the process.

But sometimes I worry about the "Bubba", one of those guys we all know, who picks up a piece of primed brass and shovels that brass through a dixie cup full of powder, then squishes a bullet down on top of it to make him some RELOADS!

February 20, 2009, 12:50 AM	#1
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	Frustrated: Can't chamber .357 in lever action Hey guys hopefully someone can help me. I'm reloading .357's for a Puma lever action rifle and when I try to chamber the round it jams from the feed ramp going into the barrel. It appears to be catching on the edge of the case mouth. The bullet is a 140 gr jhp and the book I'm using calls for a COAL of 1.290". It probably does have something to do with the diameter of the case mouth but I'm a newbie and am not sure of how to make this diameter smaller. I measured a factory round at the case mouth(which loads just fine) and it was .374" and my round is .377". Also there does seem to be a slightly bigger "lip" where the case mouth meets the bullet on my round. Please let me know if this where I "goofed" and how I can correct it. The other calipers I make do not have this problem and chamber just fine but my other guns aren't lever actions.

February 20, 2009, 10:34 AM	#8
tomgun Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Location: penna,no wait state Posts: 187	puma 357 your rifle tuning is out. get some factory loads and adjust the screws on the right side till there smooth.

February 21, 2009, 11:40 AM	#12
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	There's no way he's using a taper crimp die... he has a Lee Deluxe Pistol die set. There's no taper crimp die in that set for .38 or .357 Mag. He could be flaring the case mouth WAY too much. He could be crimping the round too little. Try this -- it WILL cost you one piece of brass that gets ruined, and one bullet also. Size the case... prime the case... don't flare the mouth at all, then try to seat a bullet. Do you see how the brass gets wrecked, how the bullet can't enter that case mouth? You need to set your mouth flaring die up as per the insructions -- and the very least you can get away with is EXACTLY what you want. If you flare a case so much that it looks like the top of a funnel, you've very much over-done it. For jacketed bullets, you should be flaring the case mouth just a tiny bit, even so little that it's hard to see with the naked eye. You should be able to place a bullet on it so the bullet sits right there, waiting to be seated, and sits evenly on the case. I would suggest you take a long look at the instructions for setting up your dies and double checking that you are set up properly. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 21, 2009, 02:41 PM	#13
alsmith Member Join Date: June 12, 2006 Posts: 17	Lee Factory Crimp Die I used to have a similar problem with an 1894 Marlin. Started crimping as a separate step with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Now, no problem. Al

February 21, 2009, 11:26 PM	#15
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Take something from the experience -- try and figure out why you flared the case mouth too much. Did you set the die as the instructions said? Do you simply screw it in and look at it, and figure, "looks good?" I'm not trying to break your balls, but if it were a semi-auto round and you flared it way too much and you had a bullet setback, you'd be arranging one big part of a catastrophic failure. "Kabooms" are often the result of a number of things that, when added together, push things over the edge. There's a good margin of safety built in to this hobby. Each firearm is built and designed to specifically handle more pressure than the cartridge is supposed to create at max load. And SAAMI sets the standard and the folks who produce the powder and the load data know it, and they all try to steer you in the right direction. When someone goofs with max loads without proper load development... or inserts magnum primers in to an already max load... or uses load data meant for different shaped bullets... or bullets of a different physical makeup... or a reloader has a scale with a wandering zero... many/most of these things will not blow up a handgun if taken all by itself. But when one or more of these conditions are met... and a bullet sets back in it's case and the internal volume is decreased by a large margin... pistols start to come apart. I believe this is how so many .40 cal Glock pistols have met their demise. (you talk about a bad reputation!) Too much case mouth flare on a semi-auto round that is violently shucked in to the chamber with force is a serious problem waiting to ruin someone's day. I'd suggest you smash a case or two while trying to figure out exactly how much too little case mouth flare is. Then, flare a tiny bit more. Look at it like your powder charge. Better to start low and work up, then to start high and work lower. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 20, 2009, 12:59 AM	#2
BerettaFox Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2008 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 144	are you using a FCD or anything like that? sounds like it's that...

February 20, 2009, 01:11 AM	#3
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	Most manuals I have call for an overall length from 1.560-1.590" with 140 grain JHP bullets. Does your 140 JHP bullet have a cannelure and are you roll crimping the case mouth into the cannelure? I've found that the overall length should put the case mouth near the middle of the cannelure on bullets I use. I'd try to load a few dummy rounds with no powder or primer and cycle them thru your rifle at longer overall lengths.

February 20, 2009, 09:52 AM	#5
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	RG, I'm using the Lee Deluxe Pistol Die set and I thought that the bullet seating die removed the flare cased by the powder die I also use the factory crimp die last. I noticed when I run the case thru the bullet seat die it seems to be catching on the case mouth on the way in the die and on the out of the die but since I'm a newbie I don't know if this is normal at all. It does the samething when I run it thru the factory crimp die(catching on the case mouth). In fact one time I got a round stuck in the factory crimp die and I had to use a lot of force to pull the lever up to get the round out it was stuck on the case mouth. I know I got something set wrong but I just don't know what it is. Also not sure what a "roll crimp" is.

February 20, 2009, 09:55 AM	#6
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	Sorry GBRo, your right I meant 1.590" for COAL

February 20, 2009, 10:13 AM	#7
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	Reread your Seating Die setup instructions. Your die has to go Down some more and the seating stem will need to back out to Compensate.

February 20, 2009, 11:34 AM	#9
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	Tomgun, not sure what you mean. Factory rounds chamber just fine in the Puma. Only my reloads won't chamber. They get hung up on the case lip but if I pull the lever back a little I can lift the back of the bullet up and slide it in the barrel just fine.

February 21, 2009, 09:58 AM	#10
wwmkwood Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 110	If it's catching on the case mouth you aren't putting enough crimp in it. You may be over expanding the mouth of the case with the expander die, this would cause it to jam going into the seating die and the crimp die. Starting with the expanding issue, only expand the mouth of the case far enough to start the bullet without scrapping copper off. The factory crimp die for roll crimped pistol rounds rounds the belling created with the expander die back into the bullet. This creates a smooth rounded step unlike the sharp lip needed for semi-auto rimless pistol rounds. I hope this helps

February 21, 2009, 10:57 AM	#11
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Sounds to me like you're using a taper crimp die instead of a roll crimp. In either case, as several have already mentioned, there isn't enough of a crimp. You should consider bullet seating and crimping in two separate operations.

February 21, 2009, 06:36 PM	#14
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	Thanks for all your advise guys. With all the info I got I found out I had two problems: 1. I was flaring the case too much. 2. I increased the crimp on the FCD by half a turn. Now the Puma .38/.357 cycles beautifully with the new reloads. Thanks again for the advise, being a newbie I'm trying to be very careful before I squeeze that trigger for the first time.

February 23, 2009, 04:12 PM	#16
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	Seven, thanks for scaring the crap out of me. I'm already very leary about squeezing the trigger for the first as I stated in my last post. LOL But seriously that is why I'm asking all these questions first and I will not sqeeze the trigger until I feel completely confindent that I have done all I can to be sure I have done it right. I also have a 10mm Glock I am reloading and did not have any problems at all with that round and was smiling from ear to ear when I successfully shot my very first reloads with it. I'm having a blast reloading, however, I want to also be as safe as possible so I thank you for your words of wisdom as with everyone else that has helped me with my .357 dilema.

February 23, 2009, 05:56 PM	#17
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Don't mean to scare anyone's crap out! But like I said, there's lots of built-in safeguards and you almost have to break a number of rules to position yourself for "the perfect storm" and have some kind of catastrophic failure. I'm sure that most folks who go through the long process of picking out equipment, chasing down load data and gathering up components are also the kind of guys who realize the care involved in the process. But sometimes I worry about the "Bubba", one of those guys we all know, who picks up a piece of primed brass and shovels that brass through a dixie cup full of powder, then squishes a bullet down on top of it to make him some RELOADS! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.