Powder choice, cast PB bullet, 357 mag, 1100 fps

stubbicatt · January 10, 2016, 06:09 AM

Guys. As I posted over in our cast bullets forum a phenomenon I have witnessed in my Uberti rifle, I thought to post my question here.

For our club's pistol caliber lever action rifle silhouette matches, one must shoot ammo with a velocity ceiling of 1,100 fps. in order to avoid damaging the steel. I took a spin of the internet seeking a powder and load data to arrive at that point using 160 grain cast plain based bullets, and chose 5 grains of WW231 powder. The load shoots good enough, but after 100 rounds the barrel is quite crusty with powder fouling.

The way I see it, I could either change powder or lube that I'm using. The lube is a home made Emmeritt's lube, which works well on my other cast bullet rifles and handguns, so I'm reluctant to change that for this one rifle. There is never any leading when I clean it, but apparently at this pressure/velocity the 231 is leaving behind crusty powder fouling. Also, using the same lube and 13.3 grains of 2400 I don't get the fouling the 231 leaves behind, so I know that it is suitable for the higher velocities attainable with that combination.

So I thought I'd ask if there is a good powder choice which you have used that is cast bullet friendly in 357 magnum from a 20" barrel with a velocity of approximately 1100 fps.?

Thanks in advance.

Mike / Tx · January 10, 2016, 06:36 AM

Well for what you say about the velocity ceiling, I would lean towards trying some AA-5 or possible even #7. Then again you might give Win540/HS-6 a try too.

I think the 231 is just a touch fast and the 2400 might be a touch slow to get decent results with once you start dropping the load down. The #5 should fit ring into that area and I haven't noted it leaving much of anything behind.

HS-6 might be a touch slow but in the longer barrel it may work out for you. I also thought of Universal which is supposed to be on par with Unique but much easier to throw consistent charges with. It might be a viable option as well.

Trouble is I don't have anything with a barrel longer than 8" on it in .357, so I am mainly just going by what I have seen with my revolvers. I WISH I had a couple of these type rifles especially one in 41 Magnum to go with the revolvers I have.

Hope this help out some.

stubbicatt · January 10, 2016, 12:04 PM

Thanks Mike/TX. I'll check further into Universal.

mehavey · January 10, 2016, 04:16 PM

At those pressures, Universal is going to leave even morw unburned powder and soot.

Stick w/ what you have

NoSecondBest · January 10, 2016, 07:48 PM

I've been using Bullseye for our silhouette leage. It works find and burns clean. Plenty of power to knock everything over.

stubbicatt · January 10, 2016, 07:51 PM

NoSecondBest, some several years ago I ringed a chamber shooting Bullseye in 357 magnum. I don't know what happened, but I am a little reluctant based on that experience. Thanks though for your offering of a good idea.

chris in va · January 10, 2016, 08:02 PM

I'm no expert on powders, but it seems to me you'd want a bulky, fluffy powder that fills the case better but won't give any more FPS than a 9mm as it's through a rifle. Trailboss or Unique perhaps.

I'm showing 38 Special data for a 155gr lead bullet 5.1gr Unique for 895fps out of a revolver, so you'd expect to gain a bit out of a rifle length.

BTW what sort of flimsy steel are they using? Sheesh.

BBarn · January 10, 2016, 08:56 PM

I've been satisfied with W231 many auto pistol loads using jacketed bullets, but have seldom been happy with it's performance in larger cases at lower pressures.

I'd probably try Red Dot, Unique, HS6, and perhaps AA7. I'm sure there are others that might work well, but the ones I listed are ones I've had at least some experience with.

I like how Red Dot works well in situations like this, but I haven't seen any Red Dot data for 357Mag/158gr lead loads published for many years.

Unique would be another one to try.

HS6 and AA7 might work, but their starting loads may exceed the velocity ceiling.

Universal had a tendency to leave unburned granules in many of the loads I tried with it.

Hope you can find something that works well for you.

NoSecondBest · January 10, 2016, 11:01 PM

Quote:

NoSecondBest, some several years ago I ringed a chamber shooting Bullseye in 357 magnum. I don't know what happened, but I am a little reluctant based on that experience. Thanks though for your offering of a good idea.

Lyman has been offering Bullseye loads for the 357mag (and 38spl) for many, many years. I don't know how you ringed a chamber using it but it would be the first one I've ever heard of and I've been loading and shooting for over 45 years. Hundreds of millions of rounds have been loaded with Bullseye, one of our oldest powders, and I've never heard of ringing a chamber with it. However, it's everyone's choice what they use.

Question: what kind of gun did you ring a chamber on? Rifle or revolver? I've never heard of ringing a chamber without using some kind of over-powder wad or filler in a rifle case and leaving an air space between powder and the base of the bullet.

shootniron · January 11, 2016, 01:25 AM

I love 2400 for my .357 loads.

stubbicatt · January 11, 2016, 04:34 AM

NoSecondBest, it was a Marlin rifle that ringed the chamber. Carbine, actually.

shootniron I like 2400 too, but even starting loads exceed the velocity limitation.

Chris in Va and Barn, thanks for the help.

1100 tac · January 11, 2016, 07:17 AM

Try some Herco, maybe about 6.5gr, a little slower than Unique.

Salmoneye · January 11, 2016, 08:18 AM

Somewhere between 4-5gr Red Dot will get you the velocity you are looking for...

mehavey · January 11, 2016, 08:40 AM

You can try all of these (faster than 231)....

(Faster/Fastest)
Titewad (Hodgdon)
Bullseye (Alliant)
Red Dot (Alliant)
Titegroup (Hodgdon)
No. 2 (Accurate)
AA Plus (Winchester)
Clays (Hodgdon)
HP38 (Hodgdon)
231 (Winchester)

But I gotta tell`ya, W231 is the way to go with the cartridge in that gun for that velocity.
(Black Hills agrees)

SEE: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=556165

January 10, 2016, 06:09 AM	#1
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	Powder choice, cast PB bullet, 357 mag, 1100 fps Guys. As I posted over in our cast bullets forum a phenomenon I have witnessed in my Uberti rifle, I thought to post my question here. For our club's pistol caliber lever action rifle silhouette matches, one must shoot ammo with a velocity ceiling of 1,100 fps. in order to avoid damaging the steel. I took a spin of the internet seeking a powder and load data to arrive at that point using 160 grain cast plain based bullets, and chose 5 grains of WW231 powder. The load shoots good enough, but after 100 rounds the barrel is quite crusty with powder fouling. The way I see it, I could either change powder or lube that I'm using. The lube is a home made Emmeritt's lube, which works well on my other cast bullet rifles and handguns, so I'm reluctant to change that for this one rifle. There is never any leading when I clean it, but apparently at this pressure/velocity the 231 is leaving behind crusty powder fouling. Also, using the same lube and 13.3 grains of 2400 I don't get the fouling the 231 leaves behind, so I know that it is suitable for the higher velocities attainable with that combination. So I thought I'd ask if there is a good powder choice which you have used that is cast bullet friendly in 357 magnum from a 20" barrel with a velocity of approximately 1100 fps.? Thanks in advance.

January 10, 2016, 06:36 AM	#2
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	Well for what you say about the velocity ceiling, I would lean towards trying some AA-5 or possible even #7. Then again you might give Win540/HS-6 a try too. I think the 231 is just a touch fast and the 2400 might be a touch slow to get decent results with once you start dropping the load down. The #5 should fit ring into that area and I haven't noted it leaving much of anything behind. HS-6 might be a touch slow but in the longer barrel it may work out for you. I also thought of Universal which is supposed to be on par with Unique but much easier to throw consistent charges with. It might be a viable option as well. Trouble is I don't have anything with a barrel longer than 8" on it in .357, so I am mainly just going by what I have seen with my revolvers. I WISH I had a couple of these type rifles especially one in 41 Magnum to go with the revolvers I have. Hope this help out some. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

January 10, 2016, 12:04 PM	#3
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	Thanks Mike/TX. I'll check further into Universal.

January 10, 2016, 04:16 PM	#4
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	At those pressures, Universal is going to leave even morw unburned powder and soot. Stick w/ what you have

January 10, 2016, 07:48 PM	#5
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I've been using Bullseye for our silhouette leage. It works find and burns clean. Plenty of power to knock everything over.

January 10, 2016, 07:51 PM	#6
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	NoSecondBest, some several years ago I ringed a chamber shooting Bullseye in 357 magnum. I don't know what happened, but I am a little reluctant based on that experience. Thanks though for your offering of a good idea.

January 10, 2016, 08:02 PM	#7
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I'm no expert on powders, but it seems to me you'd want a bulky, fluffy powder that fills the case better but won't give any more FPS than a 9mm as it's through a rifle. Trailboss or Unique perhaps. I'm showing 38 Special data for a 155gr lead bullet 5.1gr Unique for 895fps out of a revolver, so you'd expect to gain a bit out of a rifle length. BTW what sort of flimsy steel are they using? Sheesh. Last edited by chris in va; January 10, 2016 at 08:11 PM.

January 10, 2016, 08:56 PM	#8
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	I've been satisfied with W231 many auto pistol loads using jacketed bullets, but have seldom been happy with it's performance in larger cases at lower pressures. I'd probably try Red Dot, Unique, HS6, and perhaps AA7. I'm sure there are others that might work well, but the ones I listed are ones I've had at least some experience with. I like how Red Dot works well in situations like this, but I haven't seen any Red Dot data for 357Mag/158gr lead loads published for many years. Unique would be another one to try. HS6 and AA7 might work, but their starting loads may exceed the velocity ceiling. Universal had a tendency to leave unburned granules in many of the loads I tried with it. Hope you can find something that works well for you.

January 11, 2016, 01:25 AM	#10
shootniron Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2011 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,599	I love 2400 for my .357 loads.

January 11, 2016, 04:34 AM	#11
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	NoSecondBest, it was a Marlin rifle that ringed the chamber. Carbine, actually. shootniron I like 2400 too, but even starting loads exceed the velocity limitation. Chris in Va and Barn, thanks for the help.

January 11, 2016, 07:17 AM	#12
1100 tac Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2012 Posts: 299	Try some Herco, maybe about 6.5gr, a little slower than Unique.

January 11, 2016, 08:18 AM	#13
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	Somewhere between 4-5gr Red Dot will get you the velocity you are looking for...

January 11, 2016, 08:40 AM	#14
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	You can try all of these (faster than 231).... (Faster/Fastest) Titewad (Hodgdon) Bullseye (Alliant) Red Dot (Alliant) Titegroup (Hodgdon) No. 2 (Accurate) AA Plus (Winchester) Clays (Hodgdon) HP38 (Hodgdon) 231 (Winchester) But I gotta tell`ya, W231 is the way to go with the cartridge in that gun for that velocity. (Black Hills agrees) SEE: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=556165