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Old May 31, 2018, 05:47 PM   #1
JACKlangrishe
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Black Powder Rights

Ok.. I know this isn't the political/legal section of TFL, and I NEVER cross post on forums, but this one is too important and I fear some BP shooters might not be checking that section of TFL very often, so I'll take the risk.

The left in the US is pushing for a ban on muzzleloaders.

Video posted here - https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=595992

This is very serious and hopefully the word will spread quickly.

Again, sorry for posting in two different sections on the same topic. This is a first for me.
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Old May 31, 2018, 09:07 PM   #2
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Some pretty sensational reporting. No one is (seriously) debating a black powder regulation. Sure, one group had a heart attack over the silenced muzzle loader... but I think it faded quickly.
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Old June 1, 2018, 08:40 AM   #3
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I honestly doubt we'll see anything come of this. Anti-gunners are having a hard enough time going after guns that are able to pose an actual threat in the wrong hands, I can't imagine they'll waste time/effort/cash/political chips, on something that's not likely to get much support, realistically. Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by Trum4n1208; June 2, 2018 at 09:32 AM.
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Old June 1, 2018, 11:00 AM   #4
maillemaker
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Anti-gunners:

"You should only be able to own firearms that existed at the time the second amendment was written!"

"Oh wait..."
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Old June 2, 2018, 09:36 AM   #5
Trum4n1208
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Quote:
Anti-gunners:

"You should only be able to own firearms that existed at the time the second amendment was written!"

"Oh wait..."
I have an uncle who is just like this.
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Old June 2, 2018, 11:54 AM   #6
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"...a ban on muzzleloaders..." It's called Divide and Conquer. Pester/oppress the smaller number of shooters then go after the larger.
Skeet and trap shooters up here all thought the government would never bother them back in 1978. Until they had to register all their high priced shotguns at $25 each(subsequently returned after a bunch of deadlines were passed. The registry for long guns was done away with too.) in the early 90's. And take a useless course taught by unqualified instructors to get a licence to own stuff they owned for years.
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Old June 25, 2018, 08:45 AM   #7
Hdonly
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I believe that it is a good idea to stay vigilant concerning any intrusion into our rights as free citizens. The anti- whatever folks will keep trying until they find something that no one pays much attention to. Once they get a foothold, it will only get worse. Look at they have already done in the past. It usually starts small. It won't stay that way.
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Old June 25, 2018, 10:33 AM   #8
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Can't put the cat, back in the box

Once it exist, no one will ever be able to "ban" anything. You can tax them and regulate them or even make then illegal to own but someone will still own them. The only way they will ever be able to have total control, is confiscation and that too, is doubtful, it's unlikely that it will even get that far in this country. As the evolution of "weapons" progresses, old weapons will become obsolete. At one time, the British tried to ban the Brown Bess, in the colonies and were in the process of confiscation then the revolutions started. At some point in the future, even the AR's and AK's will be obsolete and as relevant as the Brown Bess. …..

Be Safe !!!
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Old June 25, 2018, 05:58 PM   #9
Model12Win
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They'll be the last to go, guys. A Brown Bess is undeniably the gun they're talking about back when the 2nd was written.

That's why I want a Pedersoli Brown Bess soon. If they ban everything else, I'll still have a powerful gun for personal defense and can be turned into a shotgun for all manner of hunting. And if you don't think a skilled shooter and a .75" lead round ball can't be used to good effect, even against two-legged predators, guys you're wrong.
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Old June 25, 2018, 07:01 PM   #10
Hdonly
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Guess I could pull out my 1863 .58 Contract Rifle replica. If ammo runs short, they ain't no rocks down here in Florida. Guess I could load it full of goat pellets. Sting a little and it would smell bad. At close range, they are pretty hard when dry. Dry pinto beans may be lethal at home defense ranges. I know even 12 gauge birdshot is close to a slug at close range. Just thinking what might do in a pinch.
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Old June 25, 2018, 07:50 PM   #11
4V50 Gary
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People like Feinstein would take everything and we'd be reduced like the English where sharp pointy knives are a no-no too. Divide et impera applies to the 2A and we should stand shoulder to shoulder with the smoothbore crowd, the black rifle crowd, the 3 Gun and what not. It's all the same when it comes to rights and I don't care if a person is gay or straight, white or black, smokeless or blackpowder, cartridge or muzzle loader. We're all in it together.
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Old June 25, 2018, 08:01 PM   #12
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I remember some female politician on TV recently ranting about muzzle loaders of 50 caliber and above. She thought we could shoot down airliners with them. She (and her advisers) don't understand the difference between a Hawken and a 50 BMG.
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Old June 25, 2018, 08:04 PM   #13
4V50 Gary
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Their ignorance is dangerous. Ban the shoulder thing that goes up.
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Old June 26, 2018, 06:35 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maillemaker View Post
Anti-gunners:

"You should only be able to own firearms that existed at the time the second amendment was written!"
And to that I say........

"Then turn in your smart phone, tablet, computer and every other modern device with which you exercise your First Amendment rights."

STOPS THEM every time!!!

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Old June 29, 2018, 02:43 AM   #15
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At one time, the British tried to ban the Brown Bess, in the colonies and were in the process of confiscation then the revolutions started.
The British "ban" on the Brown Bess wasn't a "you can't have any gun at all" kind of ban, it was a criminal offense for colonials to (unauthorized) possess a "Crown Musket".

The irony is that many of the arms in colonial possession had been provided by the Crown a decade earlier during the French & Indian war.

The revolution began with the "Shot heard round the world", April 19 1775, when colonists fought British troops who were marching to seize the militia armories at Lexington and Concord. (Paul Revere and a couple others riding to give the warning...The BRITISH are COMING!!, etc.)

It wasn't so much the guns at the armories that would have been the big loss to the militia, as most of them were in the hands & homes of the militia members. The reason the British had to be stopped (besides general principles) was the risk of them taking the stored powder.

Each minuteman had their weapon (rifle or musket or "fowling piece") a powder horn and shot, but without the bulk of their powder and shot which was stored at the armories, there could be no resupply once the minuteman used up his "basic load". This would prevent effective armed resistance pretty effectively.

A "well regulated" militia in the 1770s meant each militiaman had their basic arm, ammo, camping gear (bedroll, cookpot, etc) and knew the at least the rudiments of military drill. Standardization of arms and equipment (including uniforms) wasn't a priority, HAVING something that worked, was.

Arms were sort of standardized, in general, all were flintlocks, used the same powder, and fired lead balls, in a few different bore sizes, and there were molds available (another part of the "proper" militiaman's kit) for the arm used, be it a Brown Bess, (.72cal) or a French made Charleville (.69 cal) to cast bullets. The Achilles heel was the powder supply.

The British could, and did make the claim that the Brown Bess, being their standard arm was Crown property, and always would be, and a rebellious colonial in possession of one was thereby a criminal.

The powder the British were going to steal, on the other hand was the private property of the militias and that was almost as important a matter as the use of the powder itself.



Quote:
Anti-gunners:

"You should only be able to own firearms that existed at the time the second amendment was written!"
And to that I say........

"Then turn in your smart phone, tablet, computer and every other modern device with which you exercise your First Amendment rights."

STOPS THEM every time!!!
Another point you can use, is ask them if the Mormon religion should not be recognized as a valid religion. After all, it didn't exist at the time the Bill of Rights was written...

oh, and add your regular "stupid" phone (cell or landline) to the list, along with ballpoint pens and other things that didn't exist in the 1780s...like..electrical devises of any kind...
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Old June 29, 2018, 01:56 PM   #16
Pahoo
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"The Brown-Bess"

Quote:
The British "ban" on the Brown Bess wasn't a "you can't have any gun at all" kind of ban, it was a criminal offense for colonials to (unauthorized) possess a "Crown Musket".
I never said that and was only referring to the Brown-Bess as it was the most advanced musket of "that" day. It was the AR of the times. Now then, you know your history better than I and are you saying that there was no ban, import restrictions and plans for confiscation? Again strictly refereeing to the Brown-Bess. ……


Be Safe !!!
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Last edited by Pahoo; June 30, 2018 at 02:36 PM.
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Old June 30, 2018, 12:53 PM   #17
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It was the AR of the times. Now then, …….. are you saying that there was no ban, import restrictions and plans for confiscation? Again strictly refereeing to the Brown-Bess. …
This is a "yes and no" kind of thing. Modern 21st century attitudes and definitions don't often apply well to the actual historical situation, as it existed at the time.

The Brown Bess was the AR of the times...not exactly. More like it was the M16 of the times. The similarities are, A) it is the basic military arm of the day, and B) not sold on the civilian market, and is only legal for civilians to possess with special, specific government permission.

"Ban" implies an imposed end to something that had previously been freely/commonly available. It's also a word with very broad usage, so its not wrong to use it here. Arguably there could be a more precise term used for the specific situation of Brown Bess possession by colonists, but "ban" isn't entirely wrong, as I see it.

"Import restrictions" ?? (seriously? )

Not in the modern sense. The Colonists were pretty upset about import restrictions (taxes, duties, fees, required stamps, etc) and those import restrictions about nearly everything in daily life, which they had no say in, were reasons that they wanted independence.

As to the Brown Bess, specifically, import restrictions doesn't apply, as they were never a product imported for sale to the public.

"plans for confiscation..." ok, there were two "standards" at work just prior to, and during the Revolution. The usual day to day rules, where it was recognized and allowed for colonists to possess arms, and then the martial rules for those areas & peoples "in rebellion".

When the military (foreign or domestic) takes control of an area no matter what the laws were before, their general practice is "if we see you with a gun, we're taking it..." And local commanders has a great deal of latitude.


One can see a descendent of this in today's martial law, and specifically in the "local commander" confiscating private arms in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. It wasn't right, but it wasn't completely illegal under the rules at the time. Since then, laws have been passed more strictly defining what can and cannot be done legally in such cases.
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