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Old June 8, 2006, 08:54 PM   #26
garryc
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Let me lay some cold hard facts on you KYJIM. I have many inmates in my prison who are in for Burglary or Robbery and Kidnapping and Rape, and also murder to get rid of witnesses. These scumbags did not enter the home or business with the intention of committing a rape/murder, they did it because they had an opportunity at a defenseless female. The key word being DEFENSELESS!! Any real resistance by the female, and by real I mean no less than a firearm, would have stopped the crime. Criminals are gamblers that figure the odds, you have to turn those odds against them.
Had he known the girls were home and defenseless he would have likely gone farther. That is if he had already committed a crime. He would not want to leave witnesses and he likely would have accosted them prior to killing them. Yes that is brutal, but take my word for it, that is the way it is. With my 14 years as a corrections officer, working in close quarters with thousands of these scum bags, you can take my word on it.
Most people live in a bubble. They say it can’t happen to me or mine. But Jim, it darn near happened to yours. You and your wife need to recognize that and answer it affirmatively.
Do not raise defenseless women in a world of predators!!
That’s my two bits
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Old June 8, 2006, 11:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS
if the line is dead or no one on the other end gives the code word the cops get called.
That's what I call bad procedures. The monitoring company should not start with the assumption that it is a false alarm. they should call the police right away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS
Also many have battery backups that will still sound an audible alarm that will scare off most bad guys and warn occupants.
The only way cut phone lines affect alarm systems is preventing the system communicate to the monitoring station. A back-up battery would not even come in to play in that scenario. Yes, the siren will ring, cut phone lines or not, and they are quite effective at chasing off the bad guy a good percentage of the time...especially when its a residential break-in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
There are actually 2 ways around having a bad guy cut the phone line.
There is at least a third way. Its been given the moniker of "buddy backup" by some. What they do is send a wireless signal to a neighboring system and use that systems communication capabilities to report for the compromised system. It is cheaper than cell backup, but it obviously wouldn't work in remote areas.
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Old June 8, 2006, 11:14 PM   #28
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At 17 and 14 the girls should be trained to use the gun in a life treatening situation which this could easily have become in a matter of seconds .
Yeap. There's no safety in ignorance. Plus it builds character & discipline.
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Old June 8, 2006, 11:14 PM   #29
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That's what I call bad procedures. The monitoring company should not start with the assumption that it is a false alarm. they should call the police right away.
This would result in the police being called to false alarms numerous times, and that will result in LARGE fines (in OC esp.). That's why alarm companies verify alarm calls and esp. trouble calls which occur all the time absent real emergencies.

Quote:
The only way cut phone lines affect alarm systems is preventing the system communicate to the monitoring station. A back-up battery would not even come in to play in that scenario. Yes, the siren will ring, cut phone lines or not, and they are quite effective at chasing off the bad guy a good percentage of the time...especially when its a residential break-in.
If the BG is going to cut phone lines, it would make sense that he might find a way to shut off the power as well.
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Old June 8, 2006, 11:16 PM   #30
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KyJim, I wanted to send this to you via pm or email but your preferences do not allow it. I've posted this before. Hopefully it will help you as you consider getting a security system

Why have a monitored system

Monitoring is a good thing because the thought of the police arriving is the thing that motivates the BG to run away. That is exactly what we want. If the police aren’t coming he has nothing to fear, unless of course the homeowner is present and armed. Monitoring assures that this chain reaction is in place and BG's can continue to run for fear of being caught. I have known several cases where the BG initially fled the premises but lingered in the area, and when there is no police response he returned, ignoring the siren, to finish the job. The siren is not for the neighbors, it is for the BG, to tell him his presence has been detected. That's why I don't believe in outside sirens. Internal sirens are the way to go and the more ear-splitting and piercing they are, the better, as it might discourage them from grabbing your stereo on their way out. Unmonitored systems just ring, and that's it. Nobody cares. An outside siren just annoys everyone in the neighborhood. Residential alarms and car alarms go off all the time and nobody pays any attention. Monitored security systems can protect your home while you are away. But even if you don't care about your "stuff", monitored systems also ensure that your unoccupied home is safe for your wife to return to when she comes back from the grocery store. A young mother was recently murdered in my area, where that exact thing happened. She came home, disturbed a burglar in her home, and after he raped her he stabbed her to death.

SOP and false alarms

Different monitoring companies have different standard operating procedures (SOP) and most tailor their SOP to deal with the problem of false alarms. False alarms are the bane of the industry and the reasons why cops are now refusing to respond in many cities. The number one cause of false alarms is customer error. In order to deal with this, the industry has adopted something referred to as “alarm verification”, where the monitoring station calls the residence to confirm whether or not this is a real event or just a false alarm. This means that every signal is assumed to be a false alarm and the police are only called when it cannot be confirmed to be false. Something is wrong with that process. Some of these big companies even boast about their SOP and feature them prominently in their national TV advertising. You’ll see commercials where a residential alarm goes off and then the security company calls the residence to verify. This is not providing protection, it's unnecessarily delaying the arrival of assistance. The very first thing the monitoring company should do is call the police without delay. The delay in dispatching police also gives the bad guy several minutes to roam freely throughout your house and take whatever he wants (while the phone rings) knowing the police haven’t even been notified yet. You also want the police dispatched ASAP because the result of any delay could be loss of life. Yours or the BG. You have your firearms to protect you, but you want the police to arrive ASAP so that you don’t have to kill anyone. Just so you know, there are ways to deal with customer caused false alarms where the police are immediately dispatched but then canceled by the user without them even having to pick up the phone. Its safe, much more efficient, and keeps cops happy. I’ll save the details of that for another time. For the record, although the monitoring company initially calls the police, they should still call the residence in attempt to connect with the homeowner. In the event of a actual intrusion the homeowner is connected with the outside world and can provide info to the police.

Perimeter protection

There is no protection without perimeter protection. Perimeter protection means that all accessible (some prefer all) windows and doors are wired. This lets you move about freely in your home with the system armed. Although the technology in motion detectors/passive infrared detectors has improved in recent years with self-verification and the ability to discern the difference between a small pets and a human walking around, they should still be considered a back-up to the primary protection provided by your perimeter protection. After user error, motion detectors are biggest cause of false alarms so should not be counted on as your primary defense. They are also relatively easy to defeat if you know what you're doing. Not only that, but if your entire system is motion detection based, then you have no protection at all when you're at home. Perimeter protection gives you early warning of an intrusion before the BG is in your home. When the system goes off at night waking you up, you can retrieve your firearm and make sure your family is safe and accounted for knowing that there is a good chance the BG is still outside and the police have already been dispatched and are on their way. You cannot control whether the police response will be fast or slow, but at least they have been notified, and you’re already doing your own part to ensure the safety of your family – gun in hand.

What company to deal with

Stay away from any company whose name you recognize such as Brinks, ADT, etc. You might think that national recognition would be a good thing but in most cases its not. The reason why they are nationally known and so large is because they built themselves into the huge corporation that they are on those monthly monitoring contracts. Most of these big companies set up agreements with small companies where the small company becomes the "authorized dealer" of the big company's products. It’s a very symbiotic relationship for them. The small company gets full advertising rights and privileges to use the big company's name and logo which brings in the business, and once the customer signs on the dotted line, the small company sells the contract to the big company. These contracts are usually 2-5 years and provide the big company with the re-occurring revenue generated by the monthly monitoring fees. They might as well be selling cell phones…it’s the same principle. The smaller company is no longer concerned about the customer since they already got what they wanted out of the deal. They are not motivated to provide continued service since there is nothing in it for them. Because it’s all about throwing the system together and getting the contract signed, inferior equipment is often used and poorly installed. A great example of poor quality equipment are the systems that are compromised of all-in-one units, where it is the keypad, control panel (brains), and siren, all in one unit. It’s usually large and ugly and situated right inside the entry way. All the BG has to do is break in and take a hammer to the thing and it is defeated. This not a security system. They install systems like this to save time...and time is money. They get the equipment in ASAP, get the contract signed, sell it to the larger company, and everybody wins...except the customer. They don't care about the product installed, or whether the job was done well, as long as you sign on the dotted line they are happy. Because these companies are getting your money every month, there is no incentive to keep you a happy customer and their customer service may not be so great when you need service work or decide to upgrade to additional protection. For the record, a quality hard-wire installation could take a full day or more depending on the size and construction of the house, and you won't even know its there.
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Old June 8, 2006, 11:25 PM   #31
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Very informative Chooch, thanks. But while you gave good info on what outfit not to do business with, you said little about about what we should look for in an alarm company. How 'bout a few pointers in that area .
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Old June 8, 2006, 11:26 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS
This would result in the police being called to false alarms numerous times, and that will result in LARGE fines (in OC esp.).
Homeowners cause most false alarms, I probably mentioned that it my cut 'n pasted rant above. If a homeowner causes an activation they have the ability to disarm the system. Its called a cancel code. Police may have already been contacted, but upon receiving the cancel code, the monitoring company calls the police back and cancel's their response accordingly. To be quite honest, the police are usually not in a hurry anyway, and being cancelled en-route is considered better than rolling up on scene for a false alarm. Customer caused false alarms are generally cancelled so quickly its not an issue. The problem with the monitoring company verifying by calling the premises is the unnecessary delay that can result in loss of life. I'm sure that if the bad guy that broke into KyJim's house had discovered his girls, KyJim would not feel comfortable with any delay in police response at all. Every second would count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS
If the BG is going to cut phone lines, it would make sense that he might find a way to shut off the power as well.
Yes, then the backup battery would kick-in in the event of power loss. I agree it makes sense, but it rarely happens. Although I'm sure it has happened, off the top of my head I cannot recall such an event. Its mostly seen only in movies.
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Old June 8, 2006, 11:47 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Charlie
while you gave good info on what outfit not to do business with, you said little about about what we should look for in an alarm company. How 'bout a few pointers in that area.
Ok. Where do I start? I would recommend a hard wired system as opposed to a wireless system. A good company should be able to completely hide every wire even when installing in a finished home that was not pre-wired. All you will see is the attached equipment such as the control panel hidden in a closet somewhere, keypads, motion detectors, etc. Even the door and window switches will be unseen. If a company does not have enough faith in their installation expertise to promise that every wire will be hidden, then don't do business with them. I mentioned monitoring procedures above. Make sure their procedures involve calling the police ASAP. You're probably better off with an experienced local company who pride themselves in a job well done. If you don't get the sense that they're in it to provide you with the protection you need, then move on. Be wary of the salesmen. Those guys could work in any industry that involves sales. They might as well be selling cars or vacuum cleaners. Make sure the rep you talk to really knows his stuff - don't let a slick salesman work his magic. Ask a lot of questions. The company should use high quality equipment and should be able to tell you what makes his equipment better than others. Some control panels have quicker communication capabilities than others for example. You'll eventually have problems with standard PIR motion detectors. The best motion detectors have a built-in verification system. There were some motion detectors out there that combined PIR technology along with what was essentially radar. The idea was that one technology would verify the other before it activated. But the best I've ever seen was a dual PIR unit that verified itself and performed even better than the PIR/radar combo. Good equipment will a cost a little more, but do you want your teenage girls protected or not? I'll also add that equipment positioning is important as well. Motion detectors should not be pointed at windows. Depending on the layout of the house, you can usually get away with one motion detector per floor. It should be positioned in a central area such as a hallway. Basically, try to cut the house in half with it, preventing the ability for movement. Keypads should not face outside windows for obvious reasons. So call different companies, ask them to come out and look at your house (every house has unique protection needs) and see who incorporates some of these ideas.

Last edited by choochboost; June 10, 2006 at 11:52 PM.
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Old June 9, 2006, 01:03 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyJim
1. Do you tell your kids not to answer the door to strangers? In this instance, the burglar probably would have gone to another house had they answered. However, we have always been concerned that even a locked storm door provided minimal protection against someone who actually wants to enter to commit bodily harm.

2. Until my kids were old enough to understand not to touch, I did not leave a loaded firearm in the house. Is leaving a loaded revolver near the bedside while I'm not at home a tactical mistake? Do others do this?
1. I don't have kids but if I did, I would never ever have them answer the door to strangers for any reason.

2. If you're going somewhere it's best to stash it in the safe. Even if you don't carry, if you return home and someone's in there with a gun he conveniently found by your bed, that's not too excellent... right?
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Old June 9, 2006, 10:26 AM   #35
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Just having finished reading a book on the BTK serial killer, who had a job installing alarm systems (Yikes!) during the early part of his spree, who knew enough to cut the phone lines (another yikes!)...his initial victims had a dog, martial arts skills... and still... but enough of that. (worthy of a read tho')

I'm sooo glad your girls are OK.

Teach them shooting skills. Harden your perimeter.

NOW!

Please.

Again, I'm glad your family is safe and secure. Kudo's to your Police Dept.

I didn't know I had stolen a gun... sheesh. Yeah, Like we all believe that.

Bad things can (and do) happen to good people.
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Old June 9, 2006, 10:49 AM   #36
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Glad everyone is okay and they got that scum!
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Old June 9, 2006, 12:25 PM   #37
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Capt Charlie,

I was just thinking of something else. Its very important how door switches are installed. I would say most companies installed them on the top of the door towards the doorknob side. This could potentially lead to false alarms or even what appears to be false alarms. There is a lot of give in that area of the door. Its the opposite side from the hinges and the only thing securing the door to that side of the frame is the door knob/deadbolt, etc.

The ideal place for the switch to be located is on the top, right in the middle of the door. This is true for two reasons: 1- its close enough to the hinges that there's not enough give to cause the secured door to be moved away from the switch causing a false alarm, and 2- it is far enough from the hinges that it will still provide instant activation when the door is opened without compromising safety.

Of course the worst would be if the switch were installed right by the hinges. In that case, because the door is never far from the hinges (obviously), it would not activate until the door was opened to nearly its fullest point. Not good.

You want a company that understands this.

Last edited by choochboost; June 10, 2006 at 11:50 PM.
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Old June 9, 2006, 01:24 PM   #38
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Don't answer the door

My city recently started a "do not knock" registry. They sent out a sign that says solicitors and peddlers are not allowed to knock. It's on my front door. First offense is a fourth-degree misdemeanor with a $250 fine. Second offense is a first-degree misdemeanor, and a $1000 fine.

When someone rings the doorbell, I look out the window first, and if I don't recognize them, I don't open the door. Yes, little girls selling Girl Scout cookies are always welcome.

But anyone breaking into the house is asking to go home in a body bag.
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Old June 9, 2006, 01:46 PM   #39
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Man that's scary.

I am sure glad that everything turned out OK for the girls.

I had a large family. Everyone of the kids learned about guns and how to shoot at an early age. Gun education from infancy. Learning to shoot from age 6 (with adult supervision). None ever had the need to defend themselves with a gun. Thank goodness for that. The option was there though.

As far as storing guns, the rule was; No Loaded Guns in the house. The guns were unloaded and racked. The ammo went in a different spot than the guns. There was no loaded bedroom gun.

All the kids and my wife took a hunters safety course.

Now that the kids have left home, I keep a loaded handgun in the bedroom in a locked box. The rifles and shotguns are racked in the bedroom and no ammo nearby. The bedroom is locked when we leave. Not that a locked bedroom door would keep out a thief, but if the kids come to visit and we are not at home this keeps the grandkids away from the guns. My kids have a key to enter the home, not the bedroom.

Well that is me. I have had guns from my childhood, and so have my children. I believe it is a great blessing that we can have them for defense of self and home, and other uses, but also believe that with the possession of guns comes a grave responsibility to keep them secure and stored safely, and to educate all family members on gun safety and usage. We would sure feel bad if someone (innocent) was to get hurt or killed with one of our guns.

I like the idea of a small bedroom safe for a handgun. My locked box does the same thing, but is not real quick to get open, especially if you had trouble finding the key.
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Old June 9, 2006, 02:13 PM   #40
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Quote:
2. Until my kids were old enough to understand not to touch, I did not leave a loaded firearm in the house. Is leaving a loaded revolver near the bedside while I'm not at home a tactical mistake? Do others do this?

On question 2, it may be relevant that my wife has been anti-gun for many years since a friend was killed with an "unloaded" gun by a drunk who was playing with it. As a result, my daughters have not been taught to use firearms. I know I may get flamed about this but this was one of those differences that could have resulted in very serious marital problems and something we just agreed to disagree about.
First of all: I am very happy for you that it turned out so nicely.

Now some criticism, positive one: A gun you don't control can be used against you. That's why I never leave any gun loaded outside the vault unless I carry it on my body. Imagine what the guy could have done to your kids with your gun. In fact, where I live you would have lost your right to own any guns for life for leaving a gun you don't actually carry unlocked.

That's also the reason why some experienced guys don't carry backup guns, but one gun and one other backup-tool such as a knife or spray. You can't control a BG and two guns in a close in fight.

If you want a ready defense tool, leave Jet Protectors ("Guardian Angels") or good pepper spray lying around in the house. They work and if they're turned against you, they don't kill.

Teach your kids the safe use of firearms. Tell your wife that her firend died because some drunk didn't know about the safe use of firearms. I carry 24/7 so I don't drink. Period. Strict, simple, safe and effective.
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Old June 9, 2006, 06:17 PM   #41
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Best advice I have seen on this forum yet, all of it.

My condolences, I am sure you are shattered over this.

Ok, my advice: Talk with your spouse and your daughters and.... (god forbid) your neighbors. Between your family, and neighbors I am sure you can get something together. you sound like you are level headed. ON the gun issue, ask your daughters if they think they could kill someone. If there is no hesitation, that means NO regardless of what they say. IF they hesitate adn think about it, go with their decision, but give them the tools, training and information to make the right decision when that time comes. I doubt I could allow my 15 year old daughter the ok to do that but your daughters are different than mine.

Sean
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Old June 9, 2006, 11:02 PM   #42
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I dunno if I'd talk to the girls about killing. Maybe just stick to the basics for now, having fun punching holes in empty soda cans, paper targets, steel reactives, water filled milk jugs, watermelons, full soda cans, balloons on strings... let them put 2 and 2 together when they're ready. Perhaps some martial arts for self confidence as well.

Maybe find an NRA Refuse to be a Victim instructor and have a private (or group) session. Emphasize "stopping the attacker"... no need to get gory and deathwish-like on killing. (I hope)

Good luck Jim. Stay safe.
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Old June 10, 2006, 10:30 AM   #43
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Quote:
KYJIM SAID:
I'm going to get another and make sure they have one in each bedroom.
Make sure niether of those phones have a service. keep them charged and on the cradle, leave them on. If they have no service then no one has any reason to carry them someplace. Even cells that have no service must be able, by law, to contact 911.
You should have established safe rooms in each level of the house. these should be inaccesable from the outside. I have bars on mine that key open. Each room should have a steel door with a bolt lock and a door club. In each room there should be a gun safe, digital fast acting, containing the loaded firearm a reload and the key to the bars. Each person authorized to use the firearm should have the combo. If you have several levels in the house each should have a room and the combos for the safes should be the same. The forementioned cell phone should be in each room with it set at speaker phone if it has one. Also, in my safe room, and one in each bedroom of my house, I have a EVAC-U8 smoke hood for each house member. Each bedroom and my saferoom has a battery light.
The drill should go like this, and I mean drill regular:
The alarm is sounded, what ever that alarm is. All house hold members go to the closest room. The door is closed and bolted, then the door club is put in place. The safe is opened and 911 is called. Keeping the operator on the line constantly, the break in is reported. If the perp comes to the door he is warned, "DON"T TRY TO COME IN HERE, I HAVE THE POLICE ON THE PHONE AND I AM ARMED!!" Continue repeating that as long as he is attempting to enter. If he gets in do what you have to do while shouting STOP!!.
If he doesn't get in you will eventually be told the police are there. If a knock comes to the door and someone says he's the police ask him for his name and badge number, verify this with the operator. Place the firearm back in the safe and leave it open. Open the locks but do not remove the door club, this will allow the door to open far enough that you can see outside. If its a cop pull the club out and keep your hands exposed.
Thats my drill, I also do fire escape drills. I guess it's because of my years as a corrections officer and those as a navy HT damage control and firefighting
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Old June 10, 2006, 03:43 PM   #44
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Again, thanks to everyone. Choochboost -- the additional information on the alarm system is especially helpful.
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Old June 12, 2006, 11:21 AM   #45
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garryc,

Do you feel it is wise to have everyone in different rooms? If I were you I would designate a safe room (probably the master bedroom). If you have everyone in different rooms, there is no communication between the other family members. As for having each room having guns and a door club, I feel that might be a little excessive. Besides, it is illegal to leave firearms where they are accesible to minors (under 18). If I lived in a neighborhood where I would need to set up my house that way, I would move.
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Old June 12, 2006, 01:04 PM   #46
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He has safe rooms on every level of the house. Each family member goes to the closest safe room. I guess that makes sense since the MB safe room is useless if you can't get to it because the bad guys are between you and the safe room. The thought is, 2+ safe rooms are better than one. Its not what I have in my house but I understand his point.
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Old June 12, 2006, 01:35 PM   #47
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Chooch,

I can understand his point as well. The solution to that is to have guns hidden throughout the house. These can be in quick access type safes in discrete hiding places. My point is that all of the family members should be together if possible. This lessens the chances of "friendly fire" incidences and ensures that all family members are accounted for. Using garryc's method, you won't know if everyone is accounted for until the cops show up. Besides, who should be responsible for contacting the police? I guess 4 or 5 frantic 911 calls may get a faster response time. I guess it depends on the age of the people living in your house. If you have kids, you sure as heck would not them fending for themselves.
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Old June 12, 2006, 04:58 PM   #48
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I agree with you completely. I wouldn't want my daughter (if I had one) in an upstairs safe room while I was in the safe room downstairs. I would want her with me. Here's another concern - If my family is spread in different parts of the house, how am I to know if, and when they are locked in the safe rooms and when I should lock mine? You could potentially and inadvertently lock family members out. I guess you'd need a intercom system. But yes, having your entire family accounted for cannot be emphasized enough.
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Old June 12, 2006, 10:25 PM   #49
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I live in a single level house so I have I safe room. I can see your point about wanting to insure all the people are accounted for. If I was in that situation I would go to them. But they would be in a safe room. I figure the kid would let me in (MAYBE A CODE WORD) thats not a big issue. Fact is if the perp is between me and my kid and I have to shoot him, oh well. I would go to my child after I'm armed. Ohio doesn't have an issue with kids access to guns inside the home, nor should they, it's the parents decision. Of course I don't have any children, but if I did the kids going to the closest room and it's my respocibility to get to them.
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Old June 17, 2006, 12:37 PM   #50
McBrideGuns
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Join Date: January 6, 2006
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 77
i just have to throw this in here stephen426 said something that got me to thinking "If I lived in a neighborhood where I would need to set up my house that way, I would move." how do you know if you live in a neighborhood where you need to do things like this freak things happen every were it could be someone who's just passing through the area it doesnt have to be someone who actually lives there so i dont think having the door clubs and a phone and a weapon in every one is being over bareing its like the old saying goes better to be safe than sorry
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