colt 1911 series 80 firing pin safety reliabillity?

[1911Tuner]

Just curious,what make?does that plastic trigger have an OT screw?and why wouldn't a decent after market replacement work without substantially changing anything?

Colt Series 80.

No.

If the aftermarket trigger's bow length differs from the OEM trigger, the trigger bar lever and the plunger lever won't be in the same position when the trigger is pulled, and there's no way of knowing until the trigger is installed and the firing pin release timing is checked.

And...

It can go either way, depending on the new trigger's specs. It can just as easily correct a slow timing issue as cause one.

[polyphemus]

That goes straight to the heart of the interchangeability issue. Colt and probably all others have proprietary specs so after market replacements can go either way that is if they fit at all.It would be interesting to know though how trigger dimensions are different in this case,a plastic trigger would be a good candidate for permanent removal.

[1911Tuner]

That goes straight to the heart of the interchangeability issue. Colt and probably all others have proprietary specs so after market replacements can go either way that is if they fit at all.

Well...No, not really. Specs are specs. Since there's no such thing as a perfect dimension, everything must have a tolerance. The interchangeability or lack thereof would be determined more by plus/minus tolerances and tolerance stacking in the parts group.

Sometimes tolerances stack in our favor, and sometimes they stack up against us. All parts involved can be individually within spec, but the stacking can result in the group being slightly out of spec. This is why you find the odd Series 80 system that's a little slow on the uptake...and why Colt produces different plunger levers to compensate when it's discovered. The majority work just fine.

[Slamfire]

Drake Oldham's M1911 drop testing:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...2823#Post92823

I will agree that the series 80 firing pin block will prevent the firing pin from reaching the primer, unless the trigger is pulled. It will prevent "slamfires".

Mechanisms with free floating firing pins are susceptible to slamfires anytime the firing pin makes contact with a primer.

However, the series 80 firing pin block has its own issues. Yes it is “safer” in terms of slamfires, but it will cause failure to fire malfunctions. I have had the plunger drop down in my series 80 Colt. It has only happened once to me in tens of thousands of rounds fired, but it happened to me. The plunger was down as the slide went forward which stopped the slide and prevented it from going into battery. I had to drop the magazine, clear the weapon, pull the slide back (to figure out what was going on for one thing!!) and once I determined that the plunger had dropped down, I fiddled with the mechanism to get it to go back up in the slide.

This is a malfunction that won’t be cleared by a rack and tap.

The series 80 mechanism is an afterthought, unlike later mechanisms which were part of the design process, and it is not something I want in a self defense pistol. It is fine for a paper punching pistol.

[1911Tuner]

Mechanisms with free floating firing pins are susceptible to slamfires anytime the firing pin makes contact with a primer.

I think that Mr. Oldham should probably reconsider his comment after careful examination of the way the gun and the Series 80 system functions.

While technically true, the spring-loaded inertial firing pin doesn't really offer much chance of that happening unless the hammer is held at full-cock for an instant, and then jars off as the slide goes home, and even that requires that there's a problem with the sear reset. If the sear resets the way it's supposed to, the half-cock will grab it and arrest the hammer.

Look at the M1 and M14 rifles. The firing pin isn't an inertial type, and there's no spring to oppose it. Eject a fresh round that's chambered during normal cycling, and you'll see a tiny dent from the firing pin every time...yet they don't slam fire on any sort of consistent basis...even with soft commercial primers.

On the Series 80 system...when the gun chambers a round during normal cycling...the trigger is pulled during the cycle, allowing the firing pin to move forward freely...yet we don't get burst-fire unless something else is wrong with the fire control group...neither in a Series 80 nor in a pre-Series 80 pistol.

[1911Tuner]

However, the series 80 firing pin block has its own issues. Yes it is “safer” in terms of slamfires, but it will cause failure to fire malfunctions. I have had the plunger drop down in my series 80 Colt. It has only happened once to me in tens of thousands of rounds fired, but it happened to me.

An old axiom states that anything mechanical is subject to failure. As Master Gunny put it: "Expect your weapon to malfunction."

I've seen firing pin stops fall out of position, stop on the hammer, and tie pistols up. I've seen them fall completely out onto the ground and bean the shooter with the firing pin and spring. Anything that can happen eventually will happen to somebody.

We don't give much weight to what happens once or even occasionally. We look for trends rather than the rare occurrence.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 1911Tuner

We don't give much weight to what happens once or even occasionally. We look for trends rather than the rare occurrence.

Further, there is a HUGE difference between something that "may" occur as opposed to something that "will" occur. Slamfire wrote:

Originally Posted by Slamfire

However, the series 80 firing pin block has its own issues. Yes it is “safer” in terms of slamfires, but it will cause failure to fire malfunctions.

This is clearly incorrect. If something "will" cause something else to happen, that is an absolute statement of 100 percent certainty. If a Series 80 firing pin system "will" cause failures to fire, after having fired tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of rounds through Colt and Para-Ordnance pistols that are equipped with it, I should have experienced multiple failures to fire due to the Series 80 mechanism. To date, I have experienced zero.

I have also not experienced a broken firing pin, a broken firing pin spring, a broken extractor, or a broken sear. All of these, too, may occur and IF they occur may result in a failure to fire (or to cycle), but it would certainly be a stretch to say that I shouldn't have a firing pin in my pistol because it might break and cause a failure.

[Slamfire]

Look at the M1 and M14 rifles. The firing pin isn't an inertial type, and there's no spring to oppose it. Eject a fresh round that's chambered during normal cycling, and you'll see a tiny dent from the firing pin every time...yet they don't slam fire on any sort of consistent basis...even with soft commercial primers.

The Garand slamfired enough that the military replaced the rare round firing pin with a lighter "scalloped" version around 1942. The Italians added a firing pin spring on their box magazine versions.

All to reduce the weight and kinetic energy of the rebounding firing pin.

Notice how many rounds the guy with this Tavor fires. If he had a mechanical problem he would have recurring slamfires, but he did not. When you see the slamfire, notice that the finger is not on the trigger. He was running Federal American Eagle (federal primers) and Winchester ammo. Winchester redesigned their primers in 1999 to make them more sensitive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu8Dwj7Ey8k

If these rifles slamfired once per magazine things would be really bad, if that is your point about consistent slamfires. Have one slamfire and you won't want to have another. That will be one per lifetime.

[1911Tuner]

The Garand slamfired enough that the military replaced the rare round firing pin with a lighter "scalloped" version around 1942. The Italians added a firing pin spring on their box magazine versions.

And thus the problem was corrected...and with a non-inertial firing pin.

I've shot both rifles extensively, and I've never had a slam-fire. I've experienced the occasional double when squeezing the trigger slowly...very slowly...and I learned to make it happen almost on demand. What was actually occurring was a bump fire. I was pulling the trigger twice without realizing it.

The intertial type with the pin being shorter than its channel and spring loaded doesn't present the same problem. If the pistol slam fires, there are other issues within the fire control group.

I stand by my statement.

[Slamfire]

And thus the problem was corrected...and with a non-inertial firing pin.

The FAL has a spring loaded free floating firing pin

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...05910&posted=1

W.E.G.
Senior Member


Join Date: 09-26-06
Location: all over Virginia
Posts: 1,812

I slam-fired a FAL once.

Lake City M852 ammo.

Entreprise receiver.

1.633 headspace.

Tossed the round in the chamber.

Slingshot the charging handle.

Fired as soon as the bolt slammed.

Lucky it was in-battery.

This guy had an out of battery slamfire with the FN 49 mechanism. My recollection it has the same spring loaded, free floating firing pin of the FAL.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444364

My FN-49 Blew Up!
________________________________________
Well, sort of. I was at the range Friday and I experienced what I think was an out-of-battery ignition. I was shooting my AL FN-49 with Winchester 150grn Power Point JSP (factory ammo, not reloads) and on the third or fourth shot (I wasn't really counting) I noticed that it was much louder and that I felt some powder residue hit me in the face. I immediately locked the bolt open and removed the magazine in order to get the rest of the unfired cartridges out. It was then that I noticed that the bolt would not go foreward because of a shard of brass blocking it, the stock was cracked in front of the magazine, and the reciever cover retainer and sliding dust cover were bent outward. I managed to remove the shard of brass and get the bolt closed, but needless to say I was done shooting that particular gun for tha day.

I later managed to find most of the culprit shell casing which was mangled beyond belief. When I got home, I took the rifle apart and repaired the crack in the stock and bent the reciever cover retainer back into shape (the dust cover fell off when I was inspecting it, but it was already bent and really needed to be replaced anyway). I also disassembled the bolt (I'd already replaced the one-piece firing pin with the later two-piece design) and inspected the trigger, sear, hammer, and auxillary sear and I couldn't find any obvious reason for the accident.

Yesterday, I took the rifle and the magnled casing to the gunsmith at my local Gander Mountain. He seemed to be fairly familiar with FN-49's as his first question was about whether or not I had the one-piece or two-piece firing pin. He inspected the rifle and told me that it was mechanically fine and that the only two reasons he could think of for the mishap were either debris stuck in the firing pin channel or a defective round of ammunition.

I very highly doubt that debris in the firing pin channel was the cause because the rifle had only fired two or three shots before the incident and was cleaned prior to that (I always clean my guns every time I fire them) and the only lube I'd ever used on this particular gun has been a very light coating of oil (usually Remoil). Also, the firing pin was not protruding immediately after the incident, when I disassembled the rifle at home, or when the gunsmith inspected it. This leads me to believe that the ammo was probably the culprit and I plan to send an e-mail to Winchester about the incident.

Honestly, I think it's probably a testament to the design of the rifle that I was not injured and that the gun wasn't damaged any worse than it was. Even so, I'm probably going to sell this rifle now (though at least I can do it with a clear conscience given the gunsmith OK) as it scared me pretty badly. As I was researching the problem Friday night, I read on a couple of forums that FN-49's are somewhat known for slamfires and OOB ignitions and that they can be kind of sensitive about commercial ammo's softer primers. Since I don't reload 30-06 and milsurp ammo is getting scarce, I really have little use for a rifle in that caliber that I can't shoot commercial ammo in. Also, I find myself somewhat questioning the need for a semi-auto in a full-caliber cartridge (particularly when my K-31 is so slick).

Anytime there is incidental contact between a firing pin and a primer there is the chance of ignition. It is rare, but it happens.

[1911Tuner]

Anytime there is incidental contact between a firing pin and a primer there is the chance of ignition. It is rare, but it happens.

Not denying that, but...assuming a to-spec length firing pin and a decent spring in a 1911...have you ever seen one allow contact with a primer? Again...if the risk of slam-fire in a pre-Series 80 1911 pistol was all that likely...we'd have it happening all the time.

But we don't.

As for the reported slam-fires with the Garand/M14 design, I have to wonder. We hear of accidental shootings among police officers...with and without injury...being "explained" away as a weapon malfunction when it was actually operator error.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm sort of a mad scientist. When I hear of things like this...if it doesn't seem to make sense...I don't automatically take anybody's word for it. I work to try and duplicate it, and I work hard at it...even stacking the deck to give it the best chance. I once tried to get a 1911 to slam fire without the hammer tripping by removing the FP spring and extractor...loading a round into the chamber...and releasing the slide with the slidestop. After about 50 strikes, I gave up. It never happened.

So, how many of these things that are reported as slam-fire malfunctions are actually CYA for the brass?

I have to wonder.

[Slamfire]

I don't know what we are debating.

I have had one slamfire in a AR15, witnessed one, I had three slamfires in M1 Garands, two out of battery, all with Federal Match primers.

One gentleman I shoot with had two in battery slamfires in his AR15's with Federal primers and decided to change primers.

If you shoot highpower rifle you will either see or meet people who had, or have seen slamfires.

Primer sensitivity varies by primer composition and by technology. Federal primers use normal lead styphnate and federals are well known to be more sensitivity than other brands.



The sensitivity of military primer compositions are "matched" to the characteristics of the weapons they are used in. To a point. The designers of the Garand could not make the 30-06 primer less sensitive because that cartridge was used in a number of other weapons and duding the primer would cause misfires in those other mechanisms. The 30 Carbine was the first of its type and its firing pin is round and solid, like the original round Garand firing pin and it turns out the 30 Carbine primer had the highest drop distance of any US military primer.

It may take a lot of weapons and rounds out there before the slamfire potential of a mechanism becomes apparent. This was obviously true of the Garand and it was true of the AR15. Both the Garand and the AR15 went through troop trials, design tests, before it became obvious that the mechanisms would slamfire. For both systems the Army lightened the firing pins and for the AR15, made the #41 primer less sensitive than the commercial primers the cartridge had been loaded to that date. It turned out that the less sensitive primer caused misfires in Stoner’s later weapon designs as the later Stoner modular weapon system mechanism did not have as much ignition energy as his AR15. Most embarrassing for Stoner.

[1911Tuner]

I have had one slamfire in a AR15, witnessed one, I had three slamfires in M1 Garands, two out of battery, all with Federal Match primers.

When firing or when chambering a round?

Yeah. Federal primers present a special problem with gas rifles. I won't even use'em in an auto feed tube.

If you shoot highpower rifle you will either see or meet people who had, or have seen slamfires.

I have. I've seen a few claimed slamfires, but was unable to duplicate it with the same rifle in several attempts...which leads me to believe that they actually bump-fired. So, I've got me doubts, lad. I've got me doubts.

But this is about 1911 pistols. I only used the M1/M14 analogy to show that if those only slam fire rarely...and usually only with soft primers...then a spring loaded inertial firing pin isn't a concern...Series 80 or not.

Another one of my favorite myths to debunk with the 1911 is the out of battery kaboom...but that's meat for another debate.

[polyphemus]

Not surprisingly I seem to be living in the past,which was about a certain safety
device in some M1911 pistols.The ghost of tolerance stack came up,dear unto my heart it is,within a plastic trigger replacement issue (don't those people ship plastic main spring housings too?) anyway the critical dimension here is the length from the back of the pad to the leading edge of the bow but this can be
skewed by different shapes of pad so the bottom line is anything goes as long as it works,I get it now.

[Slamfire]

When firing or when chambering a round?

AR Slamfire, with the new brass WSR, dropped a round in the chamber during the standing stage, hit the bolt release with my right hand, and the round went off taking a divot out of the dirt in front of the firing line. My hand was not on the trigger.

For the one I witnessed, the shooter was shooting standing and the same thing happened. He was using federal primers and I got to talk with him this year, and he had another standing stage with federals and that was the last he used federals in his AR15.

My Garand slamfires, first one sitting rapid fire, last round in the 8 round clip slamfired out of battery. Federal primers. Second one, standing stage, put a round in the SLED, pulled on the operating rod, the round slamfired in battery, federal match primer. Third one, firing from bench sighting a new match Garand from the clip, the rifle slamfired out of battery. Federal match primers. All of my 30-06 were from the same 5000 primer lot of federal match primers, that lot may have been particularly sensitive, or I was just unlucky. I am still using the trigger mechanisms of from the Garands that slamfired. They are mechanically correct and do not follow.

I have never bump fired a rifle. I have been shooting semiautos for decades now, I shoot with the rifle firmly in the shoulder. When shooting from position I have a tight sling.

I have collected lots of slamfire accounts, they happen in rifles. The most slamfiring rifle on the market is the Garand. M1a slamfires are rare, probably due to the lesser number. Foreign rifles with heavy firing pin have an unusually high number of slamfire accounts considering the low numbers of them out there.

You will never hear of a firing pin initated out of battery slamfire in a roller bolt, and I will bet you will never hear of a firing pin initated slamfire in battery either. The firing pin assembly does not move forward till the lugs are extended and the firing pin spring is very strong. It is so strong that I had to take it off to get the firing pin assembly to go forward for this picture.





AR15 slamfires were frequent enough that the NRA forbid loading on the shooting stool. And I know why. When you had a M1a you could load on the stool because slamfires did not happen on the stool due to rifle orientation and magazine friction. When shooting standing it was common practice, while at port arms, to press a round in the magazine then rest the rifle, butt down, bolt open on the stool, while your target was being scored. Sometimes you would see guys hit the bolt release on the stool as they brought the rifle back to port arms prior to cheeking the rifle. With the muzzle up, gravity was working against the bolt and the bolt was slowed by magazine friction. However, you cannot press a round in the magazine of an AR through the ejection port. Instead, I saw AR shooters put the muzzle of their rifle on the stool, drop a round through the port into the chamber, hit the bolt release, then bring the rifle up. Gravity was working with the bolt and increased the kinetic energy of the firing pin. Enough highpower shooters had slamfires through their stool, blowing metal fragments and dirt all over everyone around them, that this practice was forbidden.

[1911Tuner]

Wow.

We never used to have problems like that. We didn't use AR-15 rifles in those days, though. Maybe it was the CCI primers and the GI ball ammunition we shot on the 200-yard stage.

Anyway...back to the slam-firing 1911 question.

[Slamfire]

A good reason your ball ammunition did not have slamfires is due to the work in the early 60's by the military to use less sensitive primers and lighten the firing pin. This is a matter of record:

APPENDIX 4 REPORT OF THE M16 RIFLE REVIEW PANEL

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...f&AD=ADA953114

Primer Sensitivity

Initial Specifications. Ammunition specifications established by the Air Force on 24 January 1963 provided for quality control against cocked, inverted, loose, and nicked primers. The specifications further provided for inspection and test of waterproofing
and the crimp of primers. However, the specifications did not provide for specific limitations on primer sensitivity for 5.56mm ammunition.-

Development. At the first meeting of the Technical Coordinating Committee on 26 March 1963,16 / the Air Force representatives submitted a list of reported ammunition deficiencies, which included "high primers" and "primers too sensitive". It was agreed that Frankford Arsenal would investigate the matter and recommend corrective action.

One of the malfunctions reported by the Air Force was the premature firing of cartridges that occurred upon initial charging of the M16 rifle with a cartridge from the magazine, or upon singleloading of a cartridge directly into the chamber, or when two rounds were fired at one trigger pull during semiautomatic fire.

This malfunction was attributed to "high" or protruding primers, although the tests did not confirm this theory..

However, analysis indicates that if high primers caused the premature firing, the firing should have occurred upon impact of the bolt face with the protruding primer. At this point in the weapon cycle, the bolt head would not. have been rotated to the locked position by action of the cam pin and carrier. Had firing occurred with the bolt in the unlocked position, it would have resulted in a blow back and would not have been undetected. No such disruptions were reported-. Since premature firing occurred after bolt-locking, it must have coincided in time with the impact of the bolt carrier against the bolt head. At the instant of impact, the "free floating" firing pin is moving at the velocity of the bolt carrier. The kinetic energy of the pin must be dissipated by such frictional forces as it encounters in the forward movement, and, finally, in impact of the firing pin tip with the primer of the chambered cartridge. This premise was confirmed by the visible indentation appearing on cartridges which were chambered by the mechanism and extracted unfired.

Frankford Arsenal identified test procedures for measuring firing pin energy and recommended limits for primer sensitivity.

These procedures were designed to measure the indent depth of the firing pin upon the primer cup. Tests are conducted by dropping steel balls of known weights from various measured heights upon a device containing a firing pin and a primed case assembly.

Using this procedure and measuring the energy in inch-ounces, Frankford Arsenal was able to develop test data upon which to recommend a lower limit of "none-to-fire" and an upper limit of "all-to-fire".


It recommended that primers be manufactured so that the none-to-fire limit should be not less than 16 inch-ounces of energy and the all-to-fire limit should be not greater than 64 inch-ounces of energy.

Picture from AR15.com The top firing pin is the early, heavy firing pin.


Primers are not as predictable as we want. Any time there is incidental contact with a primer there is a very small probability, a very very small probability, but finite, that the thing will ignite.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow...232052308.html

By Eric Pfeiffer, Yahoo! News | The Sideshow – Tue, Jun 12, 2012

A Pennsylvania woman was shot in the leg while shopping at a local department store on Tuesday. But in a nearly unbelievable twist, no gun was involved. Apparently, the woman was carrying the bullet in her purse, when it mysteriously exploded.

"She did not have a gun in her purse or on her," Montoursville Deputy Police Chief Jason Bentley told the Williamsport Sun-Gazette. Bentley said the woman, whose name has not been released to the public, "was not aware" she was carrying two or three bullets inside her purse at the time of the accident.

The 56-year-old woman was taken to a local hospital and was eventually discharged. In fact, the woman initially declined medical treatment, only heading to the Williamsport Regional Medical Center after her son reportedly encouraged her to do so.

"Something must of hit the primer of one of the bullets," Bentley said. "The bullet stayed in the purse, but its casing put a hole in the purse and caused a minor leg wound."

Bullets exploding outside of a gun are a rare occurrence but are not entirely unprecedented. In March, a bullet being used as evidence in a court case exploded in a bag and shot 20 feet across a courtroom. No one was hurt in the incident. It was surmised that the bullet exploded after its tip bounced against another bullet tip in the same evidence bag, according to the Telegram & Gazette.

[1911Tuner]

I remember seeing the heavy M16 firing pins, but never in any issue rifles. I quit shooting High Power competition before they came onto the scene, and in those days, we used the free ball ammo for 200 yards, and saved the M118 Lake City stuff for 300 and 600 yards. Then, the trend was to pull the 173 grain bullets and reload the cases with Sierra Matchkings and the same powder charge. We shot the M14s with the selector lock silver-soldered in. On loan, we had to give'em up if we pulled out. Mine was a Winchester. Damn good rifle.

I started reloading the LC Match brass with the Matchkings and 42.5 grains IMR 4895 and CCI primers...because we understood from the light primer dents what could happen with more touchy primers.

Shortly after that, my eyes started to go south and I gave it up...around 1983. Too much time and money spent just to burn up ammo. I stayed in it at a local club for a time. With only 200 yards available, I figured I could make a decent showing with a Garand and the giveaway ammo...and we got to keep the clips.

If the new shooters are getting slam fires that often, it might be time to reconsider their choice of primers. Any slight advantage with soft primers ain't worth the risk. I know that I'd much rather shoot Maggie's Bloomers all day than hurt anybody. Unless they've stopped production, CCI markets tougher Mil-Spec primers expressly for the slam-bang gas rifles.

[Aguila Blanca]

I must be lost. I could have sworn the title of this thread was "colt 1911 series 80 firing pin safety reliabillity?"

There's no better way to prove you've lost the debate than to take it completely off-topic. Just sayin' ...

[WVsig]

Where is a mod when you need one. LOL This thread is so far off topic.

In my experience the Colts 80 series firing pin safety is a solid design and is reliable. Does that mean it cannot fail? NO but is is likely to? NO!

I have guns which have the 80 series parts and some that do not. I trust all of them to go bang when I need them to. YMMV.

[1911Tuner]

Whoops.

Yeah. These things sometimes take on a life of their own.

But, what the hey. The original question was answered 3-4 times...

[Slamfire]

But, what the hey. The original question was answered 3-4 times...

I thought everything was essentially over when I read this:

I've seen firing pin stops fall out of position, stop on the hammer, and tie pistols up. I've seen them fall completely out onto the ground and bean the shooter with the firing pin and spring. Anything that can happen eventually will happen to somebody.

I just enjoy getting on my soap box about primer sensitivity.

[polyphemus]

This thread is a continuous learning experience,so far I'm not carrying bullets in my purse,definitely not buying one of of those self discharging rifles and the series 80 firing pin block?nobody cares any more.CCI primers are the cat's meow
even though the small ones don't use lead salt anymore right?

[SPEMack618]

Originally Posted by 1911 Tuner

The simple answer is...it depends. Some aftermarket triggers will and others won't. That's why Colt offers different plunger levers to accommodate for different trigger dimensions.

The most likely trouble spot comes with overtravel screws not allowing the trigger to move far enough to provide enough lift

Okay, next question, on my Series 80 gun, thee woul no way then to jus replace the actual trigger without affecting travel, lenght of pull, etc?

All I really want to do is get rid of the plastic trigger and still maintain the current pull, safety, and reliability the gun has now.

[gwnorth]

Okay, next question, on my Series 80 gun, thee woul no way then to jus replace the actual trigger without affecting travel, lenght of pull, etc?

All I really want to do is get rid of the plastic trigger and still maintain the current pull, safety, and reliability the gun has now.

Just curious, but what is it about the polymer trigger you dislike so much? I have a Colt Gov't enhanced from the 1990's with the polymer trigger pad, and a newer Commander with the aluminum trigger pad, and both work just fine. Even now after some 20years, the polymner trigger pad has no noticeable wear. I just cannot see the point of swapping it out is all, especially if all is working just fine (and assuming you do not want a completely different trigger pad profile, like a straight trigger or such).