need to full length size every time?

JohnLaird · May 29, 2009, 05:29 PM

I've got a batch of cases that are all once fired through my gun. Before I started full length sizing them I tried putting several casings in the chamber (5 of them) and they all fit and extract perfectly. I know I should be happy but it really bothers me because it doesn't line up with the instructions. Normally I would call RCBS about this but they are closed for the weekend. Can someone point me in the right direction here?

Also- do I need to "cam over" every time I resize a shell, or do I just need to do that after setting the die?

steve4102 · May 29, 2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

it doesn't line up with the instructions.

Sorry, you lost me here. Not sure what you are asking.

Quote:

Also- do I need to "cam over" every time I resize a shell, or do I just need to do that after setting the die?

You need to use the full stroke of the press (consistency) every time. If you set up your die to cam over, then it should cam over every time.

csmsss · May 29, 2009, 05:44 PM

If you're firing all of these cartridges through the same firearm in which they were fired, there's no need to full length resize (unless, of course, you're shooting in a firearm with a very generous chamber bordering on excessive headspace).

JohnLaird · May 29, 2009, 06:35 PM

Alright, thanks for the help.

Slamfire · May 29, 2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

I've got a batch of cases that are all once fired through my gun. Before I started full length sizing them I tried putting several casings in the chamber (5 of them) and they all fit and extract perfectly. I know I should be happy but it really bothers me because it doesn't line up with the instructions. Normally I would call RCBS about this but they are closed for the weekend. Can someone point me in the right direction here?

What are you sizing? Shotgun shells, pistol rounds, rifle cases?

I full length size pistol cases. I set to the die and size away.

I full length size rifle cases. I use a cartridge headspace gage to set up the sizing die. I size to gage minimum, and that works fine in all my rifles.

JohnLaird · May 29, 2009, 06:45 PM

They are 30-06 rifle casings. I've been looking for a head-space/case length gauge but can't find them locally. At the gun show tomorrow I'm going to look for one. Right now I'm just using dial calipers.

A/C Guy · May 29, 2009, 08:35 PM

Quote:

there's no need to full length resize (unless, of course, you're shooting in a firearm with a very generous chamber bordering on excessive headspace)

Actually, the greater the headspace, the more benefit there is to NOT full length resize. Full length resize dies are at SAAMI minimum specs and the excessive headspace chamber is over the max spec, which means you are working the brass a lot and will work harden and crack cases sooner than if you only neck size the case. I have a Rem 700 in .243 that the headspace is .004 over the max. My gunsmith asked me if I was shooting factory ammo or reloads. He said with factory ammo and that much headspace, I would not find ammo to shoot small groups. He suggested raising the F/L sizing dies a turn or so to just size the neck and not push the shoulder. My groups are under 1/2 MOA using that technique for sizing. Neck sizing leaves the case as a perfect fit for your chamber.

dahermit · May 29, 2009, 09:12 PM

What action? Lever?, pump?, auto?, bolt? How hot of a load?

JohnLaird · May 29, 2009, 09:33 PM

^
It's a savage 110 long bolt action. I'm using IMR 4350 with remington brass and speer 168 grain match bullets at the starting load.

PCJim · May 29, 2009, 09:55 PM

John, the general rule of thumb is that if you are firing all your reloads in the same firearm, you only need to neck size the brass AFTER it has been fired one time in the firearm. When fired, the brass case will have expanded to the dimensions of that firearm's chamber. The brass is now the correct size for that particular chamber, however the neck of the brass needs to be reduced to provide a tight/snug grip on the new bullet.

As previously stated, neck sizing will increase the life of your brass as it is being worked much less. That being said, you will have to FL size the brass after several neck sizing/firing repetitions.

Keep in mind that neck sizing only will not prove suitable for brass that will be fired from different firearms, as every chamber will have it's variances. And only FL sizing is recommended for auto rifles, such as the AR platform, to provide more reliable feeding.

F. Guffey · May 30, 2009, 06:47 AM

john Laird, If your press will cam over it is rare, lock-up or bind, spring or jam are better terms to describe the action of the linkage on presses for the last 40 years +. Sizing cases after firing with the best results comes when consideration is given to moving the shoulder back, or sizing to avoid shoulder set back, neck sizing is good, sizing the body of the case is good, moving the shoulder back more than necessary should be avoided if they are being sized for the chamber they were fired in.

Cam over (run the ram up until it binds) every time? Yes, but touching the bottom of the die with the shell holder when the ram is raised is not the only option, the press and die are adjustable, there are two methods of adjustment, one the 'quesstemate' method, that is guessing fractional turns of degrees and converting the fraction of a turn into thousands, Second Method) I go straight to the feeler gage, adjust the gap with the ram up and secure the lock nuts, THEN check the gap again. GAP, Where do I start? in the perfect world head space is .005 when using the perfect case (.005 shorter than the perfect chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber). Cases sized in this manner are necked sized, case body sized with minimum shoulder set back (called 'bump back' bump sounds like a term to describe an accident, an accident is what someone gets when they get it correct when using the guesstemate method).

I size to avoid moving the shoulder back, my press still goes into a bind when the ram reaches the top, the difference is what happens between the die and shell holder, again, I size 30/06 cases with a gap of .015 between the shell holder and die, I could mindlessly size the cases by adjusting the die down to the shell holder, but when the sized cases are fired in the Eddystone the shoulder will move forward .016 thousands, I eliminate all that traveling by applying the LEAVER POLICY, when the shoulder moves out I leaver out.

Nickel, dime and quarter method: This neck sizing method sizes the neck to within the thickness of a dime, quarter or nickel to the shoulder the shoulder, or the un-sized portion of the neck is gaged by the thickness of one of the three coins by using the coin to adjust the gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die with the ram (jammed) up.

F. Guffey

MarkC · May 30, 2009, 07:36 AM

I'm new to this--in fact my new press is still in the box waiting for the rest of the stuff that is backordered--so forgive me if this question sounds stupid. I understand the concept of neck sizing only for shouldered cases, but is that likewise applicable to straight sided handgun cases like the 9mm?

steve4102 · May 30, 2009, 08:03 AM

Setting up your Full Length die to fit YOUR chamber without a gauge.

1. Put the Shell Holder in the press and raise the ram.

2. Screw the Full Length(FL) Die into the press so it is about a "nickle's thickness" above the Shell Holder.

3. Lube a "Fired" case (walls and inside the neck) and squash it.

4. Remove the Lube and try closing the bolt on it in the chamber.

5. If the bolt closes with no resistance, screw the FL Die into the press about 1/8-1/4 turn and repeat steps 3 & 4.

6. As you feel the resistance begin, slow down how much you screw the FL Die into the press so you are at about 1/16 of a turn, or "Fine Tuning". At some point you will not be able to close the bolt and you are extremely close to having the FL Die in the proper position.
NOTE: The reason for this is because the FL Die has begun Resizing the Case-walls down to the Pressure Ring. As it does so, the Case-body lengthens slightly which in turn moves the Case-shoulder slightly forward. Then as the "Fine Tuning" continues the Case-shoulder makes contact with the FL Die and is moved slightly reward(or slightly shortens the Case-head to Case-shoulder dimension).

7. Stop when there is a slight bit of resistance when closing the bolt on the empty case. You now have a "slight crush fit" for the case in that specific chamber, or Zero Headspace.

8. Once you get it where you want it, take some masking tape or a black marker and put a Witness Mark where the FL Die Lock Ring is positioned to hold the FL Die in this position. Loosen the FL Die and return the Lock Ring to align with the Witness Mark and sung up the Set-Screw.Screw the FL Die back into the press and try squashing another case. It should have the same resistance as the previous one. If not, you need to re-adjust the Lock Ring so it does. But you are extremely close to where you want it, so make very small changes at this point.
Occasionally check the fit of the cases in the chamber, say every 5th firing just to make sure nothing has slipped. Checking more often won't hurt anything and give you confidence that the Set-Up is still proper.
You have now Set-Up the FL Die to P-FLR and will have the very best opportunity at having long case life and the very best accuracy possible.

F. Guffey · May 30, 2009, 11:17 AM

MarkC, There is a different set of rules for straight wall cases, full length size means full length size.

I do not have a set of dies that have the lock ring secured to the die with the set screw, I adjust the die every time because I know the head space of the chamber in .000 (thousands).

Adjusting the gap between the shell holder with a feeler gage is absolute, Fine tuning is adjustments in .001 thousands increments, guessing is to say about 1/8 turn is somewhere near + or minus a few thousands of .0088 thousands and a guess of 1/16 turn of the die is about half of that + or minus a few of .0044 thousands, when compared to the perfect chamber and the perfect cartridge, perfect is .005, I can obtain that every time without guessing, I prefer .001, that is the the effect the size case has on head space when sized for a perfect chamber, perfect chambers are rare, that is the reason I do not secure the lock nut.

With a good press, a good set of dies and shell holder reach for the feeler gage if you have confidence in the die, press and shell holder, I have strain gages, deflection gages and dial indicators, my favorite set up tool is the feeler gage, except when using a wire as a straight edge.

F. Guffey

JohnLaird · May 30, 2009, 12:19 PM

I re-read the instructions for the die and adjusted the die to solve the problem. Now the whole bench doesn't flex when it cams over.

One more newbie question though- the setting on the case trimmer is .002-.003 lower than the "trim to" length for the 30-06 and I'm having a lot of trouble adjusting it. Is that going to cause a problem in my bolt rifle, assuming the chamber is up to spec?

Shoney · May 30, 2009, 12:41 PM

The trim length is almost universally 0.010" shorter than case length.

If you trim .002-.003 lower, after resize/necksize, the case will be ok to load. However, trimming that miniscule amount will make it necessary to trim every time you resize/necksize. You will have problems setting it to trim .002-.003 because trimming will vary at least that much or more from case to case, depending on your skill and the trimmer.

If you trim it 0.010 below case length, you will only need to trim roughly every 3-5 reloads.

MarkC · May 30, 2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

MarkC, There is a different set of rules for straight wall cases, full length size means full length size.

Thanks. I plan on lurking here absorbing all the information I can before I ever pull the handle on that press.

May 29, 2009, 05:29 PM	#1
JohnLaird Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 42	need to full length size every time? I've got a batch of cases that are all once fired through my gun. Before I started full length sizing them I tried putting several casings in the chamber (5 of them) and they all fit and extract perfectly. I know I should be happy but it really bothers me because it doesn't line up with the instructions. Normally I would call RCBS about this but they are closed for the weekend. Can someone point me in the right direction here? Also- do I need to "cam over" every time I resize a shell, or do I just need to do that after setting the die?

May 29, 2009, 06:45 PM	#6
JohnLaird Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 42	They are 30-06 rifle casings. I've been looking for a head-space/case length gauge but can't find them locally. At the gun show tomorrow I'm going to look for one. Right now I'm just using dial calipers. Last edited by JohnLaird; May 29, 2009 at 06:46 PM. Reason: clarity

May 30, 2009, 12:41 PM	#16
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	The trim length is almost universally 0.010" shorter than case length. If you trim .002-.003 lower, after resize/necksize, the case will be ok to load. However, trimming that miniscule amount will make it necessary to trim every time you resize/necksize. You will have problems setting it to trim .002-.003 because trimming will vary at least that much or more from case to case, depending on your skill and the trimmer. If you trim it 0.010 below case length, you will only need to trim roughly every 3-5 reloads. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

May 29, 2009, 05:44 PM	#3
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	If you're firing all of these cartridges through the same firearm in which they were fired, there's no need to full length resize (unless, of course, you're shooting in a firearm with a very generous chamber bordering on excessive headspace).

May 29, 2009, 06:35 PM	#4
JohnLaird Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 42	Alright, thanks for the help.

May 29, 2009, 09:12 PM	#8
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	What action? Lever?, pump?, auto?, bolt? How hot of a load?

May 29, 2009, 09:33 PM	#9
JohnLaird Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 42	^ It's a savage 110 long bolt action. I'm using IMR 4350 with remington brass and speer 168 grain match bullets at the starting load.

May 29, 2009, 09:55 PM	#10
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	John, the general rule of thumb is that if you are firing all your reloads in the same firearm, you only need to neck size the brass AFTER it has been fired one time in the firearm. When fired, the brass case will have expanded to the dimensions of that firearm's chamber. The brass is now the correct size for that particular chamber, however the neck of the brass needs to be reduced to provide a tight/snug grip on the new bullet. As previously stated, neck sizing will increase the life of your brass as it is being worked much less. That being said, you will have to FL size the brass after several neck sizing/firing repetitions. Keep in mind that neck sizing only will not prove suitable for brass that will be fired from different firearms, as every chamber will have it's variances. And only FL sizing is recommended for auto rifles, such as the AR platform, to provide more reliable feeding.

May 30, 2009, 06:47 AM	#11
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	john Laird, If your press will cam over it is rare, lock-up or bind, spring or jam are better terms to describe the action of the linkage on presses for the last 40 years +. Sizing cases after firing with the best results comes when consideration is given to moving the shoulder back, or sizing to avoid shoulder set back, neck sizing is good, sizing the body of the case is good, moving the shoulder back more than necessary should be avoided if they are being sized for the chamber they were fired in. Cam over (run the ram up until it binds) every time? Yes, but touching the bottom of the die with the shell holder when the ram is raised is not the only option, the press and die are adjustable, there are two methods of adjustment, one the 'quesstemate' method, that is guessing fractional turns of degrees and converting the fraction of a turn into thousands, Second Method) I go straight to the feeler gage, adjust the gap with the ram up and secure the lock nuts, THEN check the gap again. GAP, Where do I start? in the perfect world head space is .005 when using the perfect case (.005 shorter than the perfect chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber). Cases sized in this manner are necked sized, case body sized with minimum shoulder set back (called 'bump back' bump sounds like a term to describe an accident, an accident is what someone gets when they get it correct when using the guesstemate method). I size to avoid moving the shoulder back, my press still goes into a bind when the ram reaches the top, the difference is what happens between the die and shell holder, again, I size 30/06 cases with a gap of .015 between the shell holder and die, I could mindlessly size the cases by adjusting the die down to the shell holder, but when the sized cases are fired in the Eddystone the shoulder will move forward .016 thousands, I eliminate all that traveling by applying the LEAVER POLICY, when the shoulder moves out I leaver out. Nickel, dime and quarter method: This neck sizing method sizes the neck to within the thickness of a dime, quarter or nickel to the shoulder the shoulder, or the un-sized portion of the neck is gaged by the thickness of one of the three coins by using the coin to adjust the gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die with the ram (jammed) up. F. Guffey

May 30, 2009, 07:36 AM	#12
MarkC Junior Member Join Date: May 29, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 5	I'm new to this--in fact my new press is still in the box waiting for the rest of the stuff that is backordered--so forgive me if this question sounds stupid. I understand the concept of neck sizing only for shouldered cases, but is that likewise applicable to straight sided handgun cases like the 9mm?

May 30, 2009, 08:03 AM	#13
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	Setting up your Full Length die to fit YOUR chamber without a gauge. 1. Put the Shell Holder in the press and raise the ram. 2. Screw the Full Length(FL) Die into the press so it is about a "nickle's thickness" above the Shell Holder. 3. Lube a "Fired" case (walls and inside the neck) and squash it. 4. Remove the Lube and try closing the bolt on it in the chamber. 5. If the bolt closes with no resistance, screw the FL Die into the press about 1/8-1/4 turn and repeat steps 3 & 4. 6. As you feel the resistance begin, slow down how much you screw the FL Die into the press so you are at about 1/16 of a turn, or "Fine Tuning". At some point you will not be able to close the bolt and you are extremely close to having the FL Die in the proper position. NOTE: The reason for this is because the FL Die has begun Resizing the Case-walls down to the Pressure Ring. As it does so, the Case-body lengthens slightly which in turn moves the Case-shoulder slightly forward. Then as the "Fine Tuning" continues the Case-shoulder makes contact with the FL Die and is moved slightly reward(or slightly shortens the Case-head to Case-shoulder dimension). 7. Stop when there is a slight bit of resistance when closing the bolt on the empty case. You now have a "slight crush fit" for the case in that specific chamber, or Zero Headspace. 8. Once you get it where you want it, take some masking tape or a black marker and put a Witness Mark where the FL Die Lock Ring is positioned to hold the FL Die in this position. Loosen the FL Die and return the Lock Ring to align with the Witness Mark and sung up the Set-Screw.Screw the FL Die back into the press and try squashing another case. It should have the same resistance as the previous one. If not, you need to re-adjust the Lock Ring so it does. But you are extremely close to where you want it, so make very small changes at this point. Occasionally check the fit of the cases in the chamber, say every 5th firing just to make sure nothing has slipped. Checking more often won't hurt anything and give you confidence that the Set-Up is still proper. You have now Set-Up the FL Die to P-FLR and will have the very best opportunity at having long case life and the very best accuracy possible.

May 30, 2009, 11:17 AM	#14
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	MarkC, There is a different set of rules for straight wall cases, full length size means full length size. I do not have a set of dies that have the lock ring secured to the die with the set screw, I adjust the die every time because I know the head space of the chamber in .000 (thousands). Adjusting the gap between the shell holder with a feeler gage is absolute, Fine tuning is adjustments in .001 thousands increments, guessing is to say about 1/8 turn is somewhere near + or minus a few thousands of .0088 thousands and a guess of 1/16 turn of the die is about half of that + or minus a few of .0044 thousands, when compared to the perfect chamber and the perfect cartridge, perfect is .005, I can obtain that every time without guessing, I prefer .001, that is the the effect the size case has on head space when sized for a perfect chamber, perfect chambers are rare, that is the reason I do not secure the lock nut. With a good press, a good set of dies and shell holder reach for the feeler gage if you have confidence in the die, press and shell holder, I have strain gages, deflection gages and dial indicators, my favorite set up tool is the feeler gage, except when using a wire as a straight edge. F. Guffey

May 30, 2009, 12:19 PM	#15
JohnLaird Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 42	I re-read the instructions for the die and adjusted the die to solve the problem. Now the whole bench doesn't flex when it cams over. One more newbie question though- the setting on the case trimmer is .002-.003 lower than the "trim to" length for the 30-06 and I'm having a lot of trouble adjusting it. Is that going to cause a problem in my bolt rifle, assuming the chamber is up to spec?