Compare 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP in Self-Defense Shooting?

[WIN71]

Great post. I don't know about the 50 BMG. But I will say I've had some limited experience with a 458 Win Mag using both 500 gr. solids and soft points and PCP'ers. Not at the same time of course.
My guess is a human on PCP or not, hit solid with a soft point 458 will dance on his tip toes for about a second before he tips over.
Doesn't matter what you are shooting. Bigger is usually better.......

[cslinger]

I dunno what little LE experience I have 12 gauge buck or slugs tend to be "energetic" enough to get the job done pretty much all the time and a 12 gauge is so much more portable then a Barrett. .

[OldMarksman]

Eyewitness accounts describe Moros continuing to kill American soldiers with their barongs and kris after receiving multiple rounds from the .38 pistols and .30 caliber Krag rifles. Realizing the Moro was tougher than any opponent previously encountered, the Army requested guns with more “knocking power” to physically shock and immobilize their opponents.

In 1904, Brigadier General William Crozier, Chief of Army Ordnance, requested a study to determine what caliber would be best to serve this need in a new service handgun. The research led to the recommendation of a cartridge with a caliber of no less than .45.

The origin of the 45 acp? myth or legend?

We've all heard that tale, and many of us once believed it.

The .38 Long Colt was short on penetration--that was a problem with Moro garments.

The Army reintroduced the .45 Colt, and developed a new .45 cartridge for the new Model 1909 revolver.

They were about to select a new semiautomatic pistol, and the .45 ACP was specified.

None of these .45s had sufficient " 'knocking power' to physically shock and immobilize their opponents" but they fared much better against the clothing.

The Army did not return to a .45 caliber rifle.

[stephen426]

@2123,

My post was made in response to 44 AMP's post about energy transfer and steel poppers, not human targets. (see the last line of my previous post)

A caliber as small and "weak" as the .22 LR to a critical part of the brain or spinal chord will drop someone like a rock. Look up how many hits have been carried out with .22s. A .50 BMG to the hand might hurt like hell, but it is highly unlikely to be fatal. That said, bullet placement is key and will have an effect as long as the bullet has sufficient penetration to vital organs.

The key to modern hollowpoints is sufficient penetration and good, consistent expansion that allows all or most of the bullet's energy to be transferred to the target. A lot of the other stuff is marketing gimmicks. For example, the sharp claws of the Black Talon "cut through flesh like a hot knife through butter". What hurts more? Getting stabbed with a sharp knife or a large spoon?

[WIN71]

I got side tracked on this thread. From the OP I was thinking "self defense". I posted about heavy bullets. Albeit, rifle, just to make a point. I kept reading the thread and I'm trying to figure out what a "popper" is. I had to research it to figure out what the hell it was.
Now I'm trying to figure out what the heck a popper has to do with a pooper that is trying to kill me.
Bottom line OP. As a CCW, if and when you need your weapon it will probably be needed close and fast. Pick what platform you can draw, and shoot accurately.

[dontcatchmany]

Dang, I guess my 357 Sig got left out of the mix....

[Don P]

However, as all competition shooters know that when it comes down to knock down power of the pepper poppers, the larger/major caliber rounds will have more power and take down the popper faster.

Who cares how fast the steel goes down? All steel is calibrated using 9 mm. So the point you stated is mute. Some of your responses show you were not wanting to accept differing opinions. In closing it is irrelevant how fast the steel goes down. How about the shooters that are making major power factor with 9 mm??????

[zincwarrior]

You can take all your math, physics, calculations, momentum, energy transfer, terminal ballistics, caliber, capacity, and whatever else you might want to add to this list, and send them all packing......when it comes to someone on PCP or other heavy drugs, and how they will respond to being shot.

There is no magic bullet, well, except for the .50 cal. BMG.

That will get the job done, but it's not all that handy to pack around.

We had a stalker who was addicted to vicodin. We were advised to carry pistols with the largest caliber and capacity we could carry and have a spare mag. In light of the person, I was taught to forget "shooting until the threat stopped" and empty the mag as quickly as possible, reload and get ready to empty that mag too. We were taught the same in a house situation, but with shotguns. Yea that was a happy fun time.

Thats why I started competitive shooting actually.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by zincwarrior

We had a stalker who was addicted to vicodin. We were advised to carry pistols with the largest caliber and capacity we could carry and have a spare mag. In light of the person, I was taught to forget "shooting until the threat stopped" and empty the mag as quickly as possible, reload and get ready to empty that mag too. We were taught the same in a house situation, but with shotguns. Yea that was a happy fun time.

With 5 or 6 hits of 12 Gauge Buckshot rounds, I'd say there wouldn't be much left for the authorities...

[g.willikers]

Just on the subject as originally stated of knocking down poppers:
How about a test to see which caliber is best for knocking down those dastardly poppers.
Set the full sized popper to only fall with say a factory defensive round of 230 grain .45acp.
Then try various loads and bullets of the three calibers to find out if there's any difference.
A guess would be velocity and bullet weight, along with accuracy, makes more of a difference than caliber.

[rodfac]

The heavier the punch is to the popper, the faster it will fall. I would think this heavier punch in larger caliber must have some effect on the person being shot.

Yep, but there is whole world of disagreement on how much. Given a choice on targets that shoot back, I'll always take the biggest round that I can handle and tote around conveniently, and conceal for every day work...and that'd be...ta da...the .45.

if you miss, it doesn't matter what you are shooting.

Hmmm, some of the fire balls I've seen emerging from my Model 19 .357 at dusk, would have incinerated the target at bad breath distance...just sayin'

YMMV, Rod

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My 22 Mag NAA mini revolver lets out a giant fireball and sounds like the wrath of God. When I shot it between partitions at a range, the blast blew my hair back and went under my shooting glasses. That's stopping power!

[2123]

Just for the record, I'd never want to be shot with a .50 cal. BMG, anywhere on my body.

That round tends to tear your limbs off if it hits one.

Some years ago, I had heard that the .22LR round has killed more people in the USA than ALL other calibers combined.

[xnaerughiazk]

barongs and kris after receiving multiple rounds from the .38 pistols and .30 caliber Krag rifles.

Can we say that the 30 krag round would not penetrate their clothing?

Was the move to a 45 round just typical generals fighting the last war?

I suspect there was validity to going to the 45. I own more 9s than 45s, but just reloading for them show quite a difference. Is the 9 more efficient than the 45, probably, but only recently with new bullets, otherwise its just a 355 hole vs a 451 hole or a 308 hole.

[Cirdan]

Maybe for basic ball, the larger caliber has the better performance but who shoots ball for self-defense?

Personally, I look for real-world results. After extensive studies, they found most of the self-defense sized cartridges, from 9mm to 45 ACP, have about the same one-shot stop outcomes. All are in the 32% - 35% range. So carry what you are comfortable shooting.

I, too have heard that 22 has killed more people than anything else. Probably due to a) ubiquity, more 22 guns than anything else by a wide margin and b) it's been around forever. I'd also suspect a lot of those are suicides.

[OldMarksman]

Can we say that the 30 krag round would not penetrate their clothing?

Of course not, but it was not considered inadequate, either.

What was learned, primarily in Cuba, is that .30 cal. and 7mm FMJ rifle bullets caused clean wounds that did not get infected as quickly as those made with lead .45 and 11mm lead bullets.

Was the move to a 45 round just typical generals fighting the last war?

If so, so what? The role of the handgun in US and British Army service had not changed; it was a cavalry weapon. The British had switched from .36 to .450 revolvers, and the US, from Texas Ranger .36 revolvers to .44 for the Army, retaining the .36 for the Navy, which had only small numbers of horse soldiers.

I suspect there was validity to going to the 45.

There's no question about that in my mind.

One should not assume that the .45 was all that effective against the Moros, however, It was just better than the .38 LC.

I own more 9s than 45s, but just reloading for them show quite a difference. Is the 9 more efficient than the 45, probably, but only recently with new bullets, otherwise its just a 355 hole vs a 451 hole or a 308 hole.

The experts tell us that the diameter makes some difference, but that what is hit makes the most. More shots on target will increase the odds on that.

With a shot through a lung, the minor difference in diameter will have very little impact in terms of effective rapid incapacitation. Same for two lungs. But with more hits, the likelihood of hitting something vital is hither, regardless of diameter.

Around seven years ago, with my great "knowledge" of how the .45 stopped the Moros cold, my confusing the kick in my hand with effectiveness, and the obviously greater impact on steel plates, I bought a .45.

I had had no defensive shooting training.

Then someone here showed some comparative penetration data. I learned something about wounding effectiveness--I had somehow never paid enough attention to anatomy. And I availed myself of some high performance defensive shooting range. The differences in impact rapidity on steel plates among shooters using the 9mm, the .40, and the .45 made me seriously question beliefs I had held tor many years.

And then when the latest high-performance defensive loads in 9mm came out...

[Brit]

if you miss, it doesn't matter what you are shooting. shoot the caliber that you are most accurate with under time pressure. good self defense loads all have about the same energy. i'll take more rounds on board that i also shoot better.

That sums it up. Knowing how the human body works, is good.

A round that hits the heart, and say stops it? General consensus has on average, 15 seconds of ability to do stuff, pull triggers, plunge blade into body, ETC.

I met a young Lady Police Officer, who had been shot through the heart! This was observed by one of her room mates, a nurse, rapid response of a team of Paramedics, she lived.

So, carry a bunch of good quality 9mm rounds, 16? In the lightest, most reliable pistol you own. And do that every day. And be aware, very alert.

[xnaerughiazk]

well different settings require different precautions. Not many gangs in Maine, if I have to shoot multiple targets, chances are they will be dogs or rabbits and that would be two.

I get a kick out of watching Miculek or hickok popping off multiple targets the guys are amazing, but getting that proficiency would require dedication and money.

In my situation, no reason, it be similar to prepping a big block with a 4 speed for a july 4th parade.

[vba]

Momentum is the key to knocking down poppers not energy. Momentum treats velocity and bullet mass equally. So yes, .45 ACP has more "knock down power".

[Slopemeno]

Poppers aren't people...

[ShootistPRS]

As VBA states it is momentum that moves a metal target not the kinetic energy, although they are related. Multiply the bullet weight in pounds by the velocity in fps and you get the momentum of the bullet in foot pounds per seconds. At a given distance from the pivot point a certain amount of force is needed to move the metal past the balance point. That force is the momentum while the energy is used to heat the bullet and destroy it. If enough force is transferred from the bullet to the target before the energy destroys the bullet then the target will fall.
Most people think a heavy full metal jacket bullet is the best bullet to do this but in the silhouette game we have found that a hollow point bullet of medium weight for caliber transfers more momentum to a metal target than a FMJ bullet before it is destroyed. There is real physics behind this but let's just say that the hollow point bullet deforms over a longer period of time before it is destroyed by its energy.

[Brit]

Cartridges/Pistols/Equipment? All important factors in the striving for the way to survive an encounter with a criminal, or criminals!

But without the built in survival, that comes from our DNA? Our ancestors?
Who knows, in my case. Who me? Yes me.

The earliest relative, coming to the England of old, came from Normandy, in 1188. Geo De Haergrove? All spelled wrong, the plaque I had, left behind in Canada! That part of the Continent, home of the Vikings.

The King of France gave the land to the Vikings, to stop them plundering into France. Did not work!

I looked the part with my Red Beard, till it went to the color it now is, White.

I am sure many of the residents of these pages came from quite similar back grounds, Italian Mountain Men, native Indian, African Kings, ETC.

Feasible? Something buried deep, sitting, waiting!

[seeker_two]

Originally Posted by zincwarrior

.357 revolver: EVERYONE else just inhales - its...a revolver shooter! Uncle Joe was right. They're...real...

.357 Magnum is what all the other pistol cartridges want to be when they grow up.......

[xnaerughiazk]

I'd say the 357 also, but I guess this is a semi-auto thread. I have no experience with the 40, but if I had to shoot someone I'll stick with the 1911a1 and 45.

If I'm going to shoot someone chances are he will be close and 3 rounds of 45 or even one will be plenty. No need for a speed loader or 16 round mag. Hopefully whoever is close doesn't have a vest on that I'll have to pierce with a 9. I guess that is why you should go for a head shot too.

I get tired of shooting those 16 round mags, shell casings flying every where, how am I going to find them in the grass. Will this thing ever get empty. Money flying out of the ejection port.

Just like the 223, 20 rd mags, when will this thing ever get done, can you imaging hunting with that pip squeak round on deer.

[OldMarksman]

If I'm going to shoot someone chances are he will be close and 3 rounds of 45 or even one will be plenty.

If you shoot someone lawfully he will probably be close and he will probably be moving fast. If your one round happens to hit something vital, and if it does, it will be a matter of luck, it may be "plenty" but it well likely not stop him instantly.

If it does not hit something vital, it would only stop him via psychological effect, and to depend upon that would be like drawing on an inside straight.

Your second or third shot would come into play.

Or maybe more--but remember how fast someone can move in a second or so.

That, and the close equivalence of the three rounds in terminal ballistics, leads to the objective conclusion that, in similar firearms, a 9mm will usually be more effective than the .40 or the .45.

Given adequate penetration and good bullet design, controllability is the key. Now, I would certainly take a .45 in a good 1911 over a tiny 9mm pistol any day, but that's not because of terminal ballistics.