358 Winchester case capacity

Jevyod · October 10, 2017, 08:01 AM

I am getting a 358 Winchester built, and it is getting wrapped up. It is being built of a 1918 large ring mauser. I was looking up some load data, and it seems like case capacity is often the limiting factor in this round. Is this the case? I am thinking I may need to get a drop tube in order to try to get all the powder in that some loads call for. I am hoping to get a 180-200 grain load @ 2600-2700 for deer, an possibly a 250 grain load @ 2300-2400 for larger game.So do I get a drop tube and go for it? I am assuming I will need a fairly heavy crimp in order to avoid the bullets creeping out.

FrankenMauser · October 11, 2017, 12:44 AM

Quote:

180-200 grain load @ 2600-2700

With a 180 ... maybe.

Quote:

250 grain load @ 2300-2400

Nope.

Your goals are possible under perfect circumstances, with a 24"(+) barrel from a high-end manufacturer.
But with most 'hunting length' barrels and the canister-grade powders that we get in the real world, you'll probably never see those velocities while maintaining safe pressures -- possibly not even the low end of either.

If you want the velocity, build a .35 Whelen.

If you want to run .358 Win for what it is, get a drop tube and run it within reason.

Jevyod · October 11, 2017, 06:08 AM

The gun is built off a Mauser action by a professional gunsmith. Barrel will be a Lothar Walther in either 22 or 24 inches. I have read of hand loaders achieving those velocities using Ramshot Powders in a Ruger Hawkeye. I was assuming that I could achieve the same with my gun.

BBarn · October 11, 2017, 07:58 AM

You may be able to get there with a 24" barrel. Western Powders shows max loads in that range using Accurate 2520. And Hornady has also published loads at or near those velocities. I have not seen any 358 data using Ramshot powders.

Jevyod · October 11, 2017, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBarn

I have not seen any 358 data using Ramshot powders.

I have wondered about that, yet several articles have been written that praise the TAC and Xterminator poders in the 358 Win. I have also read on other forums (Marlin Owners?) where people have actually emailed Ramshot and got data for the 358 Winchester. It confuses me a bit since it seems to be giving the best velocity for the 358.

BBarn · October 11, 2017, 09:11 AM

I do know that Western has data beyond that which is published in their data booklet. They tout Ramshot Competition as being a good choice for cowboy loads, but didn't include any 44 Special data in the manual. An email to Western was answered promptly with Ramshot Competition data for the 44 Special. A second email also received a fast response for 44 Magnum Competition data.

Jevyod · October 11, 2017, 10:09 AM

I emailed them and within 3 minutes they sent me this...
358 Winchester
Barrel: 24" ¦ Twist: 1-12" ¦ Primer: Win WLR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.358"
Case: WIN ¦ Max Case Length: 2.015" ¦ Trim Length: 2.005"
Since we do not have any specific lab tested data on this caliber, we can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources.

Caliber: .358 Winchester.
Barrel length: 24”
Powder: Ramshot – X-Terminator®.
Bullet weight: 180 grains.
Start load: 46.0 grains (ca 2325 Fps)
Maximum load: 51.0 grains (ca 2700 Fps).
Bullet weight: 200 grains.
Start load: 42.0 grains (ca 2325 Fps)
Maximum load: 46.5 grains (ca 2550 Fps).
Bullet weight: 225 grains.
Start load: 41.0 grains (ca 2100 Fps)
Maximum load: 44.5 grains (ca 2400 Fps).
Bullet weight: 250 grains.
Start load: 37.0 grains (ca 1875 Fps)
Maximum load: 42.0 grains (ca 2300 Fps).

Powder: Ramshot – TAC®.
Bullet weight: 180 grains.
Start load: 48.0 grains (ca 2300 Fps)
Maximum load: 53.0 grains (ca 2675 Fps) LD ca 110%.
Bullet weight: 200 grains.
Start load: 43.0 grains (ca 2325 Fps)
Maximum load: 48.0 grains (ca 2550 Fps) LD ca 108%.
Bullet weight: 225 grains.
Start load: 41.4 grains (ca 2050 Fps)
Maximum load: 46.0 grains (ca 2400 Fps) LD ca 106%.
Bullet weight: 250 grains.
Start load: 39.0 grains (ca 1850 Fps)
Maximum load: 44.0 grains (ca 2300 Fps) LD ca 104%.

Jevyod · October 11, 2017, 10:11 AM

Which brings me back to my question...110% case capacity?? I have never loaded compressed before but that seems like a stretch...

ammo.crafter · October 11, 2017, 10:33 AM

As others have mentioned, seems you're looking for 35 Whelan stats from the 358 Win.

Have you investigated the 358 Belm stats? It's formed from 444 Marlin cases necked to .35.

Good luck.

briandg · October 11, 2017, 12:01 PM

When you have a question look at Wikipedia, the data there was probably gathered from saami.

You can go to the saami website and find data, and case volume should be there.

Either source will be good for information.

briandg · October 11, 2017, 12:04 PM

Plenty of rounds use charges that are above capacity. The powder develops peak pressure slowly. The larger charge is able to be loaded with more powder.

ShootistPRS · October 11, 2017, 01:26 PM

Case capacity is measured in grains of water. Some powders are more dense than water so it is sometimes possible to get more grains of powder in a case than the equivalent volume of water. Some people think that case capacity is a fixed grain weight but it all depends on the specific density of the powder you use. 110% is not necessarily a compressed load.

HiBC · October 11, 2017, 02:24 PM

I don't own a .358 Win,and never loaded for one.I appreciate the cartridge for what it is.
It was typically offered in rifles with a 2.800 mag length. That means heavier(longer) bullets are deep seated,and protrude into space that could be used for powder.
Your mauser can be set up for longer ammunition.No need to seat bullets deeper than full cylindrical dia to the base of the neck.
That will gain you some.You can measure how much by filling two cases with water and seating bullets to different depths. You must establish a leak path for the water past the bullet.Fired,expanded brasswill do. Slightly squeeze the neck out of round to hold the bullet.Compare weights of the assemblies.
If you weigh the case and the bullet first you will get true water capacity of the case.

My opinion: In a custom rifle,I have options. Why else make a custom? You CAN select a cartridge speculating whether you can dance on the edge and hot rod it to your expectations. Yes,you may. That's up to you.

You CAN also look at the typical performance of book handloads and decide if that performance is what you want for a custom rifle.

Some are suggesting a 35 Whelen. Not a bad idea.I nitpick the shorter Mauser length box versus a full 30-06 length,but it certainly can be done.
I can think of one more interesting option.
That action as a Mil-Surp was made for the 8x57 brass.HMMM. That would easily neck up be a (drumroll,it has been done as a factory cartridge in euro-land) The 9x57. I'm not sure,9x57 dies may be for .356 vs .358 bullets.
Swap expander plugs and consider either a bushing die or having the die neck honed. Forster may still do that.

Something to consider,anyway.

I'm not going to look it up,but didn't the 8x57 deliver about 2700 or a bit more or less with a 196 gr bullet?
IIRS there is the Ballistic tip/ Accubond duo at about 225 gr ?

Paul B. · October 11, 2017, 04:54 PM

"As others have mentioned, seems you're looking for 35 Whelan stats from the 358 Win."

This was my thought as well.

Check the magazine length of your Mauser and see of a standard 30-06 round (Use a dummy if possible) and see if it fits in the magazine. If so, then I heartily recommend considering the .35 Whelen. I have the .358 Win. (four rifles) and the .35 Whelen (three rifles) and the .358's just sit in the safe moping away.

The .35 Whelen has a couple of things in it's favor. One factory ammo isn't too hard to find although is not loaded to it's full potential. Try and find .358 Win. ammo or brass. You can make it from .308 Win. though just as you can make Whelen brass from 30-06. To be honest though, you won't find either round at Walmart.

With careful handloading, you can run a 225 gr bullet from the Whelen at 2600 to 2700 FPS using Re15. Velocity will depend on your individual rifle. My Remington M700 will only slightly pass 2630 FPS with a 225 gr. TSX but my custom Mauser does an easy 2710 FPS and and flat puts elk down for the count. I don't hunt deer anymore as it's just too hard to draw a tag for a decent area and the other areas are close to the Mexican border. So, these days I just do a ranch hunt for cow elk on a land owner tag and usually take the Whelen as my main rifle and something else as a back up. Farthest I've had to shoot was 350 yards. One shot and the guide breaks out a sharp knife.

Paul B.

briandg · October 11, 2017, 05:01 PM

Don't even consider putting in a .350 rem mag. Bleck. You may consider the .358 Norma.

FrankenMauser · October 11, 2017, 11:45 PM

Thanks for the mention of magazine length and COAL limitations, for those that brought it up.
I thought about the Mauser action length after posting, but then got distracted by an angry 3 year-old ... and I've been out hunting all day.

The (likely) additional COAL available with the Mauser action should allow just a bit more case capacity - especially with 225+ gr bullets - which will help with approaching (and possibly achieving) the velocity goals.

And, Jevyod, please don't think I'm just 'hating on' the cartridge. I respect .358 Win and think it's a good cartridge. I do have some experience shooting and reloading for one, as well. One of my brothers has one (Ruger 77 Hawkeye), and it has proven to be a good option for big game - and easy to work with, as long as COAL isn't an issue. I do, personally, prefer .35 Whelen (own one, and building another), mostly because of the COAL limitations of .358 Win.

...By no means do I think that "lower powered" cartridge are useless. I spent today hauling around a Marlin 336 chambered for .307 Winchester (not an original - I built it from spare parts and a reamed .30-30 barrel). To .308 guys, it's "barely better than a .30-30". To .30-30 guys, it's "no better than a .30-30".
It 'suffers' from relatively low chamber pressure and the necessity to run RN or FP bullets for the tube magazine. And the throat design doesn't get along with many bullets.
It's basically a one-trick pony: 180 gr bullets at 2,500-2,600 fps.
My '06 is "better". My .35 Whelen is "better". Even my .243s could be argued to be "better".
But it's good enough for the game that I chase with it.

As for Ramshot powders...
Have you considered investing in a copy of Quick Load?
I have found it to be very useful. It is of most value when working with my wildcats and obsolete cartridges; but it is generally more reliable and accurate with predictions for more common cartridges.

Jevyod · October 12, 2017, 06:32 AM

Thanks for the reality check guys....maybe I need to lower my expectations a bit here...as far as chambering to a 35 Whelen, the build is too far along as in headspaced etc. Originally when I had decided to get the gun built I was thinking of cast bullets. In the meantime I got to busy to cast and was thinking of loading jacketed. From what I heard, cast with this chambering is really effective. I may have to look at a 200 grain cast projectile at 2300-2400 fps for deer, and maybe save the jacketed for black bear.

Jevyod · October 12, 2017, 06:35 AM

As far as getting quickload, I have looked at it several times. Just haven't "bit the bullet" as far as cost. Just bought a house and got married, which takes all available funds! I am just glad I had put a fair amount towards the build before this summer! I do still want to purchase it sometime...I just don't think now is the time!

briandg · October 13, 2017, 07:26 AM

I heard that they plan to release a budget version called "slow load", it comes with the formulas, a slide rule, pocket calculator, and a big chief tablet with a package of pencils.

HiBC · October 13, 2017, 02:32 PM

Jeyvrod,on your velocity expectations for cast bullets: :-)

There is a direct relationship between expectations and disappointments.

No disrespect to cast bullets.Folks have been getting great results with them for a lot longer than jacketed bullets have existed.....including 1000 yd accuracy.

I could be all wet,nearly all of my cast experience is with handguns,but I think velocities past 2000 fps or so become less successful.
No experience,but powder coat and paper patch may work to exceed that.

I have no reference or data to support it,but my wild imagination tells me its not a good idea to seat gas check bullets deep enough to put the gas check down in the boiler room past the case neck.

My worst case concern would be stripping a gas check and having it get stuck in the bore.
Just things to think about.

Don't get me wrong!! A 1900 fps 358 cast bullet 200 gr ?? or so will put meat on the table just fine!! Just don't defeat yourself with 2300 or 2400 fps expectations.

October 10, 2017, 08:01 AM	#1
Jevyod Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 172	358 Winchester case capacity I am getting a 358 Winchester built, and it is getting wrapped up. It is being built of a 1918 large ring mauser. I was looking up some load data, and it seems like case capacity is often the limiting factor in this round. Is this the case? I am thinking I may need to get a drop tube in order to try to get all the powder in that some loads call for. I am hoping to get a 180-200 grain load @ 2600-2700 for deer, an possibly a 250 grain load @ 2300-2400 for larger game.So do I get a drop tube and go for it? I am assuming I will need a fairly heavy crimp in order to avoid the bullets creeping out.

October 11, 2017, 10:33 AM	#9
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	358 As others have mentioned, seems you're looking for 35 Whelan stats from the 358 Win. Have you investigated the 358 Belm stats? It's formed from 444 Marlin cases necked to .35. Good luck. __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

October 11, 2017, 12:01 PM	#10
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	When you have a question look at Wikipedia, the data there was probably gathered from saami. You can go to the saami website and find data, and case volume should be there. Either source will be good for information. __________________ None.

October 11, 2017, 12:04 PM	#11
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	Plenty of rounds use charges that are above capacity. The powder develops peak pressure slowly. The larger charge is able to be loaded with more powder. __________________ None.

October 11, 2017, 02:24 PM	#13
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I don't own a .358 Win,and never loaded for one.I appreciate the cartridge for what it is. It was typically offered in rifles with a 2.800 mag length. That means heavier(longer) bullets are deep seated,and protrude into space that could be used for powder. Your mauser can be set up for longer ammunition.No need to seat bullets deeper than full cylindrical dia to the base of the neck. That will gain you some.You can measure how much by filling two cases with water and seating bullets to different depths. You must establish a leak path for the water past the bullet.Fired,expanded brasswill do. Slightly squeeze the neck out of round to hold the bullet.Compare weights of the assemblies. If you weigh the case and the bullet first you will get true water capacity of the case. My opinion: In a custom rifle,I have options. Why else make a custom? You CAN select a cartridge speculating whether you can dance on the edge and hot rod it to your expectations. Yes,you may. That's up to you. You CAN also look at the typical performance of book handloads and decide if that performance is what you want for a custom rifle. Some are suggesting a 35 Whelen. Not a bad idea.I nitpick the shorter Mauser length box versus a full 30-06 length,but it certainly can be done. I can think of one more interesting option. That action as a Mil-Surp was made for the 8x57 brass.HMMM. That would easily neck up be a (drumroll,it has been done as a factory cartridge in euro-land) The 9x57. I'm not sure,9x57 dies may be for .356 vs .358 bullets. Swap expander plugs and consider either a bushing die or having the die neck honed. Forster may still do that. Something to consider,anyway. I'm not going to look it up,but didn't the 8x57 deliver about 2700 or a bit more or less with a 196 gr bullet? IIRS there is the Ballistic tip/ Accubond duo at about 225 gr ? Last edited by HiBC; October 11, 2017 at 02:29 PM.

October 11, 2017, 06:08 AM	#3
Jevyod Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 172	The gun is built off a Mauser action by a professional gunsmith. Barrel will be a Lothar Walther in either 22 or 24 inches. I have read of hand loaders achieving those velocities using Ramshot Powders in a Ruger Hawkeye. I was assuming that I could achieve the same with my gun.

October 11, 2017, 07:58 AM	#4
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	You may be able to get there with a 24" barrel. Western Powders shows max loads in that range using Accurate 2520. And Hornady has also published loads at or near those velocities. I have not seen any 358 data using Ramshot powders.

October 11, 2017, 09:11 AM	#6
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	I do know that Western has data beyond that which is published in their data booklet. They tout Ramshot Competition as being a good choice for cowboy loads, but didn't include any 44 Special data in the manual. An email to Western was answered promptly with Ramshot Competition data for the 44 Special. A second email also received a fast response for 44 Magnum Competition data.

October 11, 2017, 10:09 AM	#7
Jevyod Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 172	I emailed them and within 3 minutes they sent me this... 358 Winchester Barrel: 24" ¦ Twist: 1-12" ¦ Primer: Win WLR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.358" Case: WIN ¦ Max Case Length: 2.015" ¦ Trim Length: 2.005" Since we do not have any specific lab tested data on this caliber, we can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources. Caliber: .358 Winchester. Barrel length: 24” Powder: Ramshot – X-Terminator®. Bullet weight: 180 grains. Start load: 46.0 grains (ca 2325 Fps) Maximum load: 51.0 grains (ca 2700 Fps). Bullet weight: 200 grains. Start load: 42.0 grains (ca 2325 Fps) Maximum load: 46.5 grains (ca 2550 Fps). Bullet weight: 225 grains. Start load: 41.0 grains (ca 2100 Fps) Maximum load: 44.5 grains (ca 2400 Fps). Bullet weight: 250 grains. Start load: 37.0 grains (ca 1875 Fps) Maximum load: 42.0 grains (ca 2300 Fps). Powder: Ramshot – TAC®. Bullet weight: 180 grains. Start load: 48.0 grains (ca 2300 Fps) Maximum load: 53.0 grains (ca 2675 Fps) LD ca 110%. Bullet weight: 200 grains. Start load: 43.0 grains (ca 2325 Fps) Maximum load: 48.0 grains (ca 2550 Fps) LD ca 108%. Bullet weight: 225 grains. Start load: 41.4 grains (ca 2050 Fps) Maximum load: 46.0 grains (ca 2400 Fps) LD ca 106%. Bullet weight: 250 grains. Start load: 39.0 grains (ca 1850 Fps) Maximum load: 44.0 grains (ca 2300 Fps) LD ca 104%.

October 11, 2017, 10:11 AM	#8
Jevyod Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 172	Which brings me back to my question...110% case capacity?? I have never loaded compressed before but that seems like a stretch...

October 11, 2017, 01:26 PM	#12
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	Case capacity is measured in grains of water. Some powders are more dense than water so it is sometimes possible to get more grains of powder in a case than the equivalent volume of water. Some people think that case capacity is a fixed grain weight but it all depends on the specific density of the powder you use. 110% is not necessarily a compressed load.

October 11, 2017, 04:54 PM	#14
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,801	"As others have mentioned, seems you're looking for 35 Whelan stats from the 358 Win." This was my thought as well. Check the magazine length of your Mauser and see of a standard 30-06 round (Use a dummy if possible) and see if it fits in the magazine. If so, then I heartily recommend considering the .35 Whelen. I have the .358 Win. (four rifles) and the .35 Whelen (three rifles) and the .358's just sit in the safe moping away. The .35 Whelen has a couple of things in it's favor. One factory ammo isn't too hard to find although is not loaded to it's full potential. Try and find .358 Win. ammo or brass. You can make it from .308 Win. though just as you can make Whelen brass from 30-06. To be honest though, you won't find either round at Walmart. With careful handloading, you can run a 225 gr bullet from the Whelen at 2600 to 2700 FPS using Re15. Velocity will depend on your individual rifle. My Remington M700 will only slightly pass 2630 FPS with a 225 gr. TSX but my custom Mauser does an easy 2710 FPS and and flat puts elk down for the count. I don't hunt deer anymore as it's just too hard to draw a tag for a decent area and the other areas are close to the Mexican border. So, these days I just do a ranch hunt for cow elk on a land owner tag and usually take the Whelen as my main rifle and something else as a back up. Farthest I've had to shoot was 350 yards. One shot and the guide breaks out a sharp knife. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

October 11, 2017, 05:01 PM	#15
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	Don't even consider putting in a .350 rem mag. Bleck. You may consider the .358 Norma. __________________ None.

October 11, 2017, 11:45 PM	#16
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Thanks for the mention of magazine length and COAL limitations, for those that brought it up. I thought about the Mauser action length after posting, but then got distracted by an angry 3 year-old ... and I've been out hunting all day. The (likely) additional COAL available with the Mauser action should allow just a bit more case capacity - especially with 225+ gr bullets - which will help with approaching (and possibly achieving) the velocity goals. And, Jevyod, please don't think I'm just 'hating on' the cartridge. I respect .358 Win and think it's a good cartridge. I do have some experience shooting and reloading for one, as well. One of my brothers has one (Ruger 77 Hawkeye), and it has proven to be a good option for big game - and easy to work with, as long as COAL isn't an issue. I do, personally, prefer .35 Whelen (own one, and building another), mostly because of the COAL limitations of .358 Win. ...By no means do I think that "lower powered" cartridge are useless. I spent today hauling around a Marlin 336 chambered for .307 Winchester (not an original - I built it from spare parts and a reamed .30-30 barrel). To .308 guys, it's "barely better than a .30-30". To .30-30 guys, it's "no better than a .30-30". It 'suffers' from relatively low chamber pressure and the necessity to run RN or FP bullets for the tube magazine. And the throat design doesn't get along with many bullets. It's basically a one-trick pony: 180 gr bullets at 2,500-2,600 fps. My '06 is "better". My .35 Whelen is "better". Even my .243s could be argued to be "better". But it's good enough for the game that I chase with it. As for Ramshot powders... Have you considered investing in a copy of Quick Load? I have found it to be very useful. It is of most value when working with my wildcats and obsolete cartridges; but it is generally more reliable and accurate with predictions for more common cartridges. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

October 12, 2017, 06:32 AM	#17
Jevyod Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 172	Thanks for the reality check guys....maybe I need to lower my expectations a bit here...as far as chambering to a 35 Whelen, the build is too far along as in headspaced etc. Originally when I had decided to get the gun built I was thinking of cast bullets. In the meantime I got to busy to cast and was thinking of loading jacketed. From what I heard, cast with this chambering is really effective. I may have to look at a 200 grain cast projectile at 2300-2400 fps for deer, and maybe save the jacketed for black bear.

October 12, 2017, 06:35 AM	#18
Jevyod Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 172	As far as getting quickload, I have looked at it several times. Just haven't "bit the bullet" as far as cost. Just bought a house and got married, which takes all available funds! I am just glad I had put a fair amount towards the build before this summer! I do still want to purchase it sometime...I just don't think now is the time!

October 13, 2017, 07:26 AM	#19
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	I heard that they plan to release a budget version called "slow load", it comes with the formulas, a slide rule, pocket calculator, and a big chief tablet with a package of pencils. __________________ None.

October 13, 2017, 02:32 PM	#20
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Jeyvrod,on your velocity expectations for cast bullets: :-) There is a direct relationship between expectations and disappointments. No disrespect to cast bullets.Folks have been getting great results with them for a lot longer than jacketed bullets have existed.....including 1000 yd accuracy. I could be all wet,nearly all of my cast experience is with handguns,but I think velocities past 2000 fps or so become less successful. No experience,but powder coat and paper patch may work to exceed that. I have no reference or data to support it,but my wild imagination tells me its not a good idea to seat gas check bullets deep enough to put the gas check down in the boiler room past the case neck. My worst case concern would be stripping a gas check and having it get stuck in the bore. Just things to think about. Don't get me wrong!! A 1900 fps 358 cast bullet 200 gr ?? or so will put meat on the table just fine!! Just don't defeat yourself with 2300 or 2400 fps expectations.