Historical Pistol Design Question

artech · December 18, 1999, 12:25 PM

Can anyone recall what was the first pistol using a double-stack magazine? I'm thinking it was the Mauser C-96(broomhandle) but if anyone can think of an earlier one, please post it here. The mag doesn't have to be detachable, just double stacked.

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With my shield or on it...

James K · December 18, 1999, 11:34 PM

A neat question. I cannot think of anything earlier. Some of the Bergmanns were double stack but they all came later than the C 96. I suspect with Mauser, the double stack just fell in line with their normal rifle magazine; I wonder if they thought much about it.

Jim

fal308 · December 19, 1999, 10:23 AM

This question peaked my curosity also. Pulled out my Zhuk book and began perusing it.
"The Krika; 8mm, ten rounds. This recoil-operated locked-breech pistol designed by the Bohemian Karel krika in 1895 and promoted by the ammunition-maker Georg Roth. The magazine in the grip was filled from a charger with a special slider." There was also an improved model of 1899. Don't know if these are double-stacks or not.
Mannlicher had several patterns also. Though most were not double-stack. The 1894 pattern could be had in 6.5mm or 7mm, five rounds. Was unsuccessfully tested in several countries and fired from an unlocked breech. Unusual in that when fired, the barrel moved forward. "When the barrel reaches it farthest position, the spent case is ejected and the next cartridge moves up from the integragl charger-loaded magazine to occupy the space behind the returning spring-propelled barrel. When the barrel stops against the standing breech, the gun is loaded but cannot be fired until the trigger of the revolver-type double-action firin mechanism has been pressed." The 1896 pattern 7.65 Mannlicher had a capacity of six rounds and had a stationary barrel and a blow-back type breech. Another 1896 pattern (Model 1903) held seven rounds and widely known as the "Austrian Mauser". This weapon does contain a detachable two column magazine. The ammunition shares the case dimensions of the 7.63mm Mauser but contains less propellant and develops lower pressures. Also the construction or the Austrian pistol is apprecialby weaker than the German rival.
I believe that Jim is correct though about the Mauser C/96. It was designed around 1894 by the three Feederle brothers as a private venture but was ultimately patented in the Mauser name in the autumn of 1895.

Big Bunny · December 19, 1999, 03:49 PM

Really facinating stuff, there is really nothing new under the sun as far as basic design goes !

Not even the 'Dardic" semi-revolver/semi auto I was told about recently!

James K · December 19, 1999, 10:22 PM

The Dardick was another one of those solutions to a non-problem, like the Mateba auto-revolver, which is now being sold. Webley-Fosbery lives! (Actually, the Mateba barrel is aligned with the low chamber, so it should be free of the top heavy feel of the W-F.)

Jim

P.S. Hi, Big Bunny

There was nothing semi-auto about the Dardick except that it had a magazine. Otherwise, it worked like a conventional double/single action revolver.

Jim

[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited December 22, 1999).]

December 18, 1999, 12:25 PM	#1
artech Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 1999 Location: Southern Maine, Bushmaster Country Posts: 275	Can anyone recall what was the first pistol using a double-stack magazine? I'm thinking it was the Mauser C-96(broomhandle) but if anyone can think of an earlier one, please post it here. The mag doesn't have to be detachable, just double stacked. ------------------ With my shield or on it...

December 18, 1999, 11:34 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	A neat question. I cannot think of anything earlier. Some of the Bergmanns were double stack but they all came later than the C 96. I suspect with Mauser, the double stack just fell in line with their normal rifle magazine; I wonder if they thought much about it. Jim

December 19, 1999, 10:23 AM	#3
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	This question peaked my curosity also. Pulled out my Zhuk book and began perusing it. "The Krika; 8mm, ten rounds. This recoil-operated locked-breech pistol designed by the Bohemian Karel krika in 1895 and promoted by the ammunition-maker Georg Roth. The magazine in the grip was filled from a charger with a special slider." There was also an improved model of 1899. Don't know if these are double-stacks or not. Mannlicher had several patterns also. Though most were not double-stack. The 1894 pattern could be had in 6.5mm or 7mm, five rounds. Was unsuccessfully tested in several countries and fired from an unlocked breech. Unusual in that when fired, the barrel moved forward. "When the barrel reaches it farthest position, the spent case is ejected and the next cartridge moves up from the integragl charger-loaded magazine to occupy the space behind the returning spring-propelled barrel. When the barrel stops against the standing breech, the gun is loaded but cannot be fired until the trigger of the revolver-type double-action firin mechanism has been pressed." The 1896 pattern 7.65 Mannlicher had a capacity of six rounds and had a stationary barrel and a blow-back type breech. Another 1896 pattern (Model 1903) held seven rounds and widely known as the "Austrian Mauser". This weapon does contain a detachable two column magazine. The ammunition shares the case dimensions of the 7.63mm Mauser but contains less propellant and develops lower pressures. Also the construction or the Austrian pistol is apprecialby weaker than the German rival. I believe that Jim is correct though about the Mauser C/96. It was designed around 1894 by the three Feederle brothers as a private venture but was ultimately patented in the Mauser name in the autumn of 1895.

December 19, 1999, 03:49 PM	#4
Big Bunny Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 1999 Location: New South Wales - Australia Posts: 605	Really facinating stuff, there is really nothing new under the sun as far as basic design goes ! Not even the 'Dardic" semi-revolver/semi auto I was told about recently!

December 19, 1999, 10:22 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The Dardick was another one of those solutions to a non-problem, like the Mateba auto-revolver, which is now being sold. Webley-Fosbery lives! (Actually, the Mateba barrel is aligned with the low chamber, so it should be free of the top heavy feel of the W-F.) Jim P.S. Hi, Big Bunny There was nothing semi-auto about the Dardick except that it had a magazine. Otherwise, it worked like a conventional double/single action revolver. Jim [This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited December 22, 1999).]