Co-witness red dot on a lever action?

sinead · February 22, 2012, 02:14 AM

Hello all,

I am planning on buying a rifle and have been researching alternatives for quite some time. I am very familiar with handguns but have not fired a rifle in over 30 years. The specific purpose is for defense, not hunting. Defense against four legged critters when hiking with my dogs. I have encountered large feral hogs up close and have seen many coyotes but not had any problems with them. I also want something for defense against two legged critters. Even with a lot of practice, I don't see a bolt action as being fast enough for followup shots. For personal reasons, I don't want an AR15 or anything from the former Soviet Union. I would like at least 10 round capacity, lightweight, sufficient "stopping power" and reliable. Close range accuracy is good enough; I am not trying for small groups at hundreds of yards. I would also like a red dot with the ability to use an iron ghost ring if the electronics crap out. I thought I had a solution with the Ruger Mini 30 but a little research showed that a red dot co-witnessing the irons is next to impossible. What about a 44 magnum lever action? I am open to a Marlin, Winchester or other quality weapon. I don't care for the Henry, too many extra pounds. It looks like XS makes a forward mount scout rail for several Marlins and Winchesters which could hold the red dot. Are there any aftermarket ghost rings and front sights which would allow co-witnessing with an Aimpoint or Eotech or other small red dot? If there is another (lower) way of mounting a red dot than a Picatinny rail that would be fine.

If you have a solution to this problem, please be specific: 1) rifle model, 2) iron sight model, 3) red dot model and 4) specific rail or mount compatible with rifle and red dot. If possible, combination which doesn't require machining or a master gunsmith would be nice.

Thanks, Sinead

7sleeper · February 23, 2012, 11:03 AM

The options are
1) Lever
a) Handgun 38/357 or 44
b) Rifle 30-30
2) Semiauto
a) Handgun 9mm, 40mm, 45ACP
b) Rifle (mainly 223, 7.62x39, 308)

1) Lever actions, with exception of Marlin, are usually not optics friendly. Usually many people prefer a ghost ring with their lever action. Low tech but low defect rate out in the wilds.
Following brands are available : Puma/Rossi(very well respected), Marlin and Winchester. As far as I know only Rossi offers their line in blued and stainless steel. All above offer handgun and rifle caliber firearms.

2) Semiauto is an endless selection. You can get Berreta, Highpoint, Keltech, Ruger, Saiga etc. etc.

I believe that for defense the handgun caliber rifles are sufficient. Lever action or semiauto is a strictly personal choice. The lever action is typicaly seen as more "harmless/romantic" while the semiauto is seen as more "aggressive/military". You can also get the lever actions in 16" with an 8 round magazine which will make it usualy lighter. The amout of ammunition is secondary I believe because if you cannot solve the conflict with the first 2 or 3 rounds it doesn't matter anymore. Either a wild pig has steam rolled over you or a bear is playing with you football.
The keltech sub 2000(in 9 or 40) seems to have a large following because it is a small package with optional company magazines. Comes with a ghost ring sight.
The puma/rossi leveractions also have a large following and are used a lot in western shooting competitions. The 357 or 44 will stop most adversaries very quickly.
For an easy and quick solution I would advise on of the above models.

Do not underestimate the fire rate of a bolt action. There are countless numbers of youtube videos which prove otherwise.
edit: just found a nice one Sauer 202 in 7mm Rem Magnum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byChk...0l80l596l8l8l0

This question is rather difficult to answer because it has an immense number of available options.

7

sinead · February 23, 2012, 12:00 PM

Quote 7sleeper: "This question is rather difficult to answer because it has an immense number of available options."

Precisely! Most, perhaps all, of them don't work. Perhaps I am "barking up the wrong tree". My only options might be quick release mounts or an AR15.

Quote 7sleeper: "The amout of ammunition is secondary I believe because if you cannot solve the conflict with the first 2 or 3 rounds it doesn't matter anymore. Either a wild pig has steam rolled over you or a bear is playing with you football."

I am familiar with encounters with pigs and a bolt action is probably adequate against all 4 legged critters since they don't usually attack in groups. 2 legged critters are another matter and I would like the rifle for defense against them too.

Sinead

PigFarmer · February 24, 2012, 10:39 AM

Thinking Ruger Mini 14 meets the needs. It's not an AR style rifle but does shoot a 5.56/.223 round, I know that some of the models come with rails for optics already attached. Simi auto with multiple mag options.

Can't give you which models come ready as you wanted as I went AR/M4 route with my personal choice so I could change uppers depending on the situation.

K1500 · February 24, 2012, 10:42 AM

Levers are great. Why do you want/need to co-witness? I know it is all the rage in tactical circles these days, but since you are looking at a lever you are not really swayed by the prevailing AR wisdom.

I would look at a Burris Fastfire. There is a pic of it mounted on a levergun here. In the mounting instructions, they specifically mention that it does co-witness with the irons, as that is how you do a rough sight in with it.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/fastfire.html

sinead · February 24, 2012, 12:42 PM

quote K1500: "Levers are great. Why do you want/need to co-witness? I know it is all the rage in tactical circles these days, but since you are looking at a lever you are not really swayed by the prevailing AR wisdom."

I want the co-witness in case the electronics crap out or the battery dies. My primary goal is a defensive rifle not going to war. Reliability is a very high priority which would give a preference of bolt action, lever action and semi-auto in that order. Although my skills need tuning up, I know I can get followup shots with a lever action without losing my sight picture.

Thanks for the Burris link. I will look into these.

Sinead

February 22, 2012, 02:14 AM	#1
sinead Junior Member Join Date: February 22, 2012 Posts: 4	Co-witness red dot on a lever action? Hello all, I am planning on buying a rifle and have been researching alternatives for quite some time. I am very familiar with handguns but have not fired a rifle in over 30 years. The specific purpose is for defense, not hunting. Defense against four legged critters when hiking with my dogs. I have encountered large feral hogs up close and have seen many coyotes but not had any problems with them. I also want something for defense against two legged critters. Even with a lot of practice, I don't see a bolt action as being fast enough for followup shots. For personal reasons, I don't want an AR15 or anything from the former Soviet Union. I would like at least 10 round capacity, lightweight, sufficient "stopping power" and reliable. Close range accuracy is good enough; I am not trying for small groups at hundreds of yards. I would also like a red dot with the ability to use an iron ghost ring if the electronics crap out. I thought I had a solution with the Ruger Mini 30 but a little research showed that a red dot co-witnessing the irons is next to impossible. What about a 44 magnum lever action? I am open to a Marlin, Winchester or other quality weapon. I don't care for the Henry, too many extra pounds. It looks like XS makes a forward mount scout rail for several Marlins and Winchesters which could hold the red dot. Are there any aftermarket ghost rings and front sights which would allow co-witnessing with an Aimpoint or Eotech or other small red dot? If there is another (lower) way of mounting a red dot than a Picatinny rail that would be fine. If you have a solution to this problem, please be specific: 1) rifle model, 2) iron sight model, 3) red dot model and 4) specific rail or mount compatible with rifle and red dot. If possible, combination which doesn't require machining or a master gunsmith would be nice. Thanks, Sinead

February 23, 2012, 11:03 AM	#2
7sleeper Junior Member Join Date: February 13, 2012 Location: Austria Posts: 13	The options are 1) Lever a) Handgun 38/357 or 44 b) Rifle 30-30 2) Semiauto a) Handgun 9mm, 40mm, 45ACP b) Rifle (mainly 223, 7.62x39, 308) 1) Lever actions, with exception of Marlin, are usually not optics friendly. Usually many people prefer a ghost ring with their lever action. Low tech but low defect rate out in the wilds. Following brands are available : Puma/Rossi(very well respected), Marlin and Winchester. As far as I know only Rossi offers their line in blued and stainless steel. All above offer handgun and rifle caliber firearms. 2) Semiauto is an endless selection. You can get Berreta, Highpoint, Keltech, Ruger, Saiga etc. etc. I believe that for defense the handgun caliber rifles are sufficient. Lever action or semiauto is a strictly personal choice. The lever action is typicaly seen as more "harmless/romantic" while the semiauto is seen as more "aggressive/military". You can also get the lever actions in 16" with an 8 round magazine which will make it usualy lighter. The amout of ammunition is secondary I believe because if you cannot solve the conflict with the first 2 or 3 rounds it doesn't matter anymore. Either a wild pig has steam rolled over you or a bear is playing with you football. The keltech sub 2000(in 9 or 40) seems to have a large following because it is a small package with optional company magazines. Comes with a ghost ring sight. The puma/rossi leveractions also have a large following and are used a lot in western shooting competitions. The 357 or 44 will stop most adversaries very quickly. For an easy and quick solution I would advise on of the above models. Do not underestimate the fire rate of a bolt action. There are countless numbers of youtube videos which prove otherwise. edit: just found a nice one Sauer 202 in 7mm Rem Magnum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byChk...0l80l596l8l8l0 This question is rather difficult to answer because it has an immense number of available options. 7 Last edited by 7sleeper; February 23, 2012 at 11:45 AM.

February 24, 2012, 10:39 AM	#4
PigFarmer Member Join Date: August 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 97	Thought.... Thinking Ruger Mini 14 meets the needs. It's not an AR style rifle but does shoot a 5.56/.223 round, I know that some of the models come with rails for optics already attached. Simi auto with multiple mag options. Can't give you which models come ready as you wanted as I went AR/M4 route with my personal choice so I could change uppers depending on the situation.

February 24, 2012, 10:42 AM	#5
K1500 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2011 Posts: 163	Levers are great. Why do you want/need to co-witness? I know it is all the rage in tactical circles these days, but since you are looking at a lever you are not really swayed by the prevailing AR wisdom. I would look at a Burris Fastfire. There is a pic of it mounted on a levergun here. In the mounting instructions, they specifically mention that it does co-witness with the irons, as that is how you do a rough sight in with it. http://www.burrisoptics.com/fastfire.html Last edited by K1500; February 24, 2012 at 11:09 AM.

February 23, 2012, 12:00 PM	#3
sinead Junior Member Join Date: February 22, 2012 Posts: 4	Quote 7sleeper: "This question is rather difficult to answer because it has an immense number of available options." Precisely! Most, perhaps all, of them don't work. Perhaps I am "barking up the wrong tree". My only options might be quick release mounts or an AR15. Quote 7sleeper: "The amout of ammunition is secondary I believe because if you cannot solve the conflict with the first 2 or 3 rounds it doesn't matter anymore. Either a wild pig has steam rolled over you or a bear is playing with you football." I am familiar with encounters with pigs and a bolt action is probably adequate against all 4 legged critters since they don't usually attack in groups. 2 legged critters are another matter and I would like the rifle for defense against them too. Sinead

February 24, 2012, 12:42 PM	#6
sinead Junior Member Join Date: February 22, 2012 Posts: 4	quote K1500: "Levers are great. Why do you want/need to co-witness? I know it is all the rage in tactical circles these days, but since you are looking at a lever you are not really swayed by the prevailing AR wisdom." I want the co-witness in case the electronics crap out or the battery dies. My primary goal is a defensive rifle not going to war. Reliability is a very high priority which would give a preference of bolt action, lever action and semi-auto in that order. Although my skills need tuning up, I know I can get followup shots with a lever action without losing my sight picture. Thanks for the Burris link. I will look into these. Sinead