What if a gang attacked me?

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by sw_florida

People who engage in multiple aggressor attacks

To that I will agree.

The problem is that lots of people do not know the back story and assume the little guy is always the victim.

[Tanzer]

Tourist,
Your point is well taken. Frankly, Two very good freinds I grew up with belong to a local biker's club; (name not noted; privacy). They raised more money for my family when my son died (we were young and just starting out - money was tight) than all other donations combined. I personally don't even understand why you relate bikers to this group. These guys are more than capable of doing things themselves. Kick over my freind Teddy's bike, and it's not a group you're going to deal with, it's Teddy.
That being said, the picture I'm drawing is of a gang of punks with black fingernail polish and pierced eyebrows (maybe just my area of the country). A "Townie" as you refer to, is usually dealt with by being stuffed in a trash can, They're not woth the trouble. Listen to me.. I'm all grown up and talking like this...
I now have a CWP. Those days are over and done with. This thread relates to the admittedly slight chance that you find yourself chosen as a victim. Made even more slight by the fact that as a responsible gun carrier, you are wary enough to avoid the situation in the first place. The situation is 98% bogus to begin with, but worthy of debate in its intended manner.
As stated before, you are among friends. You like to stir the pot, but please don't add vinegar to it. Your side is viable, but it's not just a biker deal, and Townies are not worth our trouble. They're townies because they never got the self-woth to be anything else, so why bother with them?
Keep that bike polished, I lost the nerve for two wheels twenty years ago.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Tanzer

I personally don't even understand why you relate bikers to this group.

That's very simple to answer. It's the group I know.

I have never been a member of Congress, the mafia, Al Quaida, a sewing bee, NasCar, The Flying Elvi, or The Crest Kids.

But I am a club biker, and I've seen idiots.

As I mentioned in another thread, co-workers at the sporting goods store often debate ideas, like we do here. And frankly, if I had to use force against a mugger in this liberal city, my past would be a problem.

You can imagine the scenario. A mugger approaches me, I get ticked off, and I use strength and a very sharp knife to defend myself. I am now faced with a problem that Massad Ayoob has pointed out many times.

I must now "survive" in court. Weight lifter. Knife sharpener. Biker.

I've seen this same issue many times. You'll see six peaceful bikers at Joey's Anchor Inn or "The Wisco," enjoying a cold drink or a pool game. A drunken townie decides to discuss his displeasure.

The issue now becomes "six on one" and all of the problems of perception that concept brings.

Like I said, you have to consider the back story. You cannot just look at the basic situation, and reach a snap decision about a gang attack.

[[email protected]]

Avoid that situation...but, expect the unexpected.
Slug with everything you have, the throat, the temple on the side of the head. Kick with all your might the knees, between the legs, stomach...
Normally if you put one or two down, the rest will run..hopefully
If it is your life, do not hold anything back.

It is all a painful hassle, especially if you could have avoided the whole thing somehow.

[Tanzer]

[QUOTE]

I have never been a member of Congress, the mafia, Al Quaida, a sewing beWhat?e, NasCar, The Flying Elvi, or The Crest Kids.[/QUOTE

What? You've never been a flying Elvi?? Now I've lost all respect.

[Mark Milton]

The late David Arnold was rather fond of Colt .357 wheelguns.
He was also a policeman in Africa in the 60s and 70s.
He always said blow the head off the first agressor and the rest tend to scatter...

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Tanzer

What? You've never been a flying Elvi?? Now I've lost all respect.

Yes, it's true.

This big old bad biker is afraid of heights.

I get a little woozy on a tall step ladder. Since we have vaulted ceilings in several rooms of my home, I had to buy one of those long collapsing bulb changers to replace lights.

[sw_florida]

The Tourist didn't understand my post above, but I'm sure the rest of you did.

[Michael Anthony]

Wasn't this a thread a month ago?

The solution is still the same!

[Double Naught Spy]

Oh that's right, McTony, we are all Hollywood Ninjas.

[Jay1958]

It's real easy to say "avoid those situations".

Let me give you a situation that actually happened to me, just earlier today. Tell me what you would have done.

I had a package to ship via UPS. I was returning one of my pistols to the manufacturer for warranty work. I checked the UPS website and decided that to avoid any hassles, I would go directly to a UPS shipping center. I've heard many stories of people who tried to ship firearms at a "UPS Store" or "Authorized Shipping Center" and ended up having to go directly to a UPS center/hub.

As I approached the door, I noticed a sign on the door that said something like "No Weapons / No Firearms Allowed". I returned to my car and dropped my carry weapon into the range bag in my trunk, and returned to the customer center with my package.

When I entered the customer center, it appeared to be empty - that is, no one was working at the counter, and an open door behind the counter lead to the rear where I assumed someone would be coming out to the counter soon.

A sign instructed me to "enter your information into this terminal and print your label here before taking your package to the counter" or something to that effect, so I decided to go ahead and do that before attempting to contact one of the employees for assistance.

As I was entering the information, and still no employees visible, four young males, very rough looking, suddenly entered from outside. Here I was - trapped with them - they were directly between me and the door - and unarmed due to the company policy of posting their premises.

I wanted to appear calm, and kept entering my information while trying to keep an eye on them with my peripheral vision - not being too obvious, that is. They stayed together as a group, just inside the door, and appeared to be just talking and cutting up among themselves. This made me very nervous - they had no packages to ship, and did not appear to have a purpose to be there. They made no attempt to approach the counter or do anything to get attention from employees who might be in earshot beyond the open door.

After a moment or two, a male UPS employee entered the room from the back, and asked the young men if he could help them. One of them muttered a question, something like "Is Kim working? I need to see Kim for a minute." and were told no one by that name was working. They turned and filed out.

If they had attacked me as a group, my only hope - other than desperation attempts at hand-to-hand combat - would be that the employees would have heard a ruckus and come to my aid. Otherwise, I would have been pretty much screwed...

So what do the "avoid those situations" folks have to say about this? To me, it illustrates that we can't always avoid "those situations". Who would have known that a trip to a UPS shipping center could have possibly been a high-risk venture?

More important: what should I have done, differently? or to protect myself?

[sgtdemeo]

Jay1958, please tell me if I missed something in your story that would make anything that these 4 men did seem at all threatning. lets recap... they came into a buisness during normal, operating hours. they stood away from you, idd not approach, or for that matter, do anything physical to imply that there was a threat. they were, as you say, "talking and Cutting up among themselves" . again, still nothing even remotely threatning. i am sorry, but i can't see what about these men was do disarming to you. Explain, please.

[DoItRight]

Jay1958, please tell me if I missed something in your story that would make anything that these 4 men did seem at all threatning. lets recap... they came into a buisness during normal, operating hours. they stood away from you, idd not approach, or for that matter, do anything physical to imply that there was a threat. they were, as you say, "talking and Cutting up among themselves" . again, still nothing even remotely threatning. i am sorry, but i can't see what about these men was do disarming to you. Explain, please.

Same here.

[sw_florida]

Jay1958, interesting story. From this we learnt to screw those 'no guns' signs, as long as it's not the real post office or a sheriff's office. The four didn't seem to have any business there and if the vibes you felt were unpleasant, I trust you. It's those situations which evolve into attacks. Next time, keep your gun on you. The detectors don't go off. I'll keep your story in mind. Ah, and your question. The answer would have been to keep the gun on you, and not let them encircle you.

[Jay1958]

SgtDemeo and DoItRight,

You're right, they did absolutely NOTHING that was OVERTLY threatening.

Can you seriously tell me that you never perceive threats based on age, gender, clothing, behavior, demeanor, "gut instinct"?

Me personally, I may be a victim of false thinking and stereotyping, but when I am in a situation where I am unarmed and alone, my internal radar goes on much higher alert if I am placed in a situation where retreat/escape is blocked or at best, difficult, if not unlikely, and four young males who are unkempt, wearing clothing and generally behaving in ways that are generally associated with (insert your choice of: bikers, gangs, drug culture, skinheads, punk, gangbanger, etc), who are present inside a business, with no apparent reason to be there (not shipping anything, nor picking anything up, nor even making an attempt to speak to an employee or "fellow customer") than if four female senior citizens, dressed and behaving in ways that lead me to believe they might be part of of some garden club or civic or religious group, had me 'cornered' in the same situation...!

"Profiling" may not be politically correct, or even illegal if done by government agencies, but if individual citizens who may be potential victims don't do a certain amount of 'profiling' as part of their ongoing risk assessment, then IMO they are probably at greater risk for that decision.

Not to say that it isn't POSSIBLE that an 80-year-old grandmother, driving a Mercedes and wearing expensive jewelry and expensive designer clothing might not approach you without warning and kill you at the local QuikMart, but ignoring the clothing, age, gender, behavior, etc. of strangers you encounter may be done at your own risk.

These four young men appeared to me to be nervous, fidgety, restless, speaking in somewhat hushed tones, laughing nervously at times... it really appeared to me that they might be considering robbing me and the cash register at the counter - and even now I'm not really convinced that it wasn't own their mind and for some reason they decided against it. I'm not at all convinced they actually knew anyone who works there - that itself may well have been a ruse to 'explain' their presence. The employee at the counter didn't say "They're not here right now", he said "There's no one by that name working here."

I would have done absolutely nothing today any differently if I had been well armed than I did unarmed. But I still think this may have been a high-risk situation that the potential perpetrators walked away from, for whatever reason. Thank God!

sgtdemeo wrote:
"Jay1958, please tell me if I missed something in your story that would make anything that these 4 men did seem at all threatning. lets recap... they came into a buisness during normal, operating hours. they stood away from you, idd not approach, or for that matter, do anything physical to imply that there was a threat. they were, as you say, "talking and Cutting up among themselves" . again, still nothing even remotely threatning. i am sorry, but i can't see what about these men was do disarming to you. Explain, please."

[Sarge]

What if a gang attacked me?

They'd likely shove you in the back of the car, and take you to their hideout or an abandoned warehouse...then they'd tie you to a chair...shine a bright light in your eyes, blow cheap cigar smoke in your face. You know- 'The Works'. They would demand secret information, like the passwords to your internet accounts. Oh, you'd resist valiantly I'm sure- but they have ways to make you talk. So we have to assume that they'd eventually get the informaton.

Then they would go to the sites you visit and READ ALL YOUR POSTS!

After that, it would be like The Ransom of Red Chief- they'd be trying to pay us to take you back.

[sw_florida]

I just came up with another thought after I shut off my computer, so here I am again. When you know that you have business ahead of you that requires of you that you dump your hand gun, cirlce the place first to see if any potential scumbags are hanging around. If there are, return later. All those signs on stores 'no guns': just ignore them from now on. Say you didn't see the sign if ever caught. Always carry mace concealed. Carry it into the post office too, while not you hand gun. If ever caught, say it's not a gun.

[sgtdemeo]

sw florida.... so I am to understand that you are advocating that its ok for you to break the law whenever you feel like it dosn't suit your purpose? what then when others do it? or, worse yet, what if you got caught, and all that press was on you? seems like an attitude like that just feeds the stereotypes that we law abiding, responsible firearms owners are trying to get out of the media, huh? obeying the law is what responsible people do. if you don't agree with a law, then get a lobby together and change it. but i cannot and will not advocate breaking the law at your own whim, nor recommending that others do so.

[DoItRight]

... "Profiling" may not be politically correct, or even illegal if done by government agencies, but if individual citizens who may be potential victims don't do a certain amount of 'profiling' as part of their ongoing risk assessment, then IMO they are probably at greater risk for that decision ...

[rant] I have an increased sensitivity to this particular topic because I happen to be a 6'3", dark-skinned, black man and I have been the subject of this type of "wary behavior" for most of my life -- as recently as yesterday.

Some days, I'll turn on my "Magic Johnson Smile" and say something (in my best non-threatening, college-educated, sales executive, hyper-articulate voice) to disarm the person/people who are feeling uncomfortable and the tension goes away. Other days however, I may be tired, my feet may be hurting, I may be lost in thought about some jerk client of mine, or absently dreaming about my next handgun purchase and I simply don't feel like going out of my way to accomodate someone who is viewing me through their own stereotypical lens. On those says, I simply don't feel like it. But the glances and the suspicion wear on you after a while. [/rant]

Having said all of that, I am the biggest proponent in the world of the notion that "the best way to avoid trouble is to avoid trouble." And the best way to do that is to listen to your "Spidey sense."

That's obviously what you were doing at the UPS Store and I simply can't fault you for it. Just like the young fellas didn't do anything overt, neither did you -- you were just "being aware."

Smart move on your part (and like the kids say), "I ain't mad at you about it."

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by sw_florida

The Tourist didn't understand my post above, but I'm sure the rest of you did.

Yes, I did, but I don't think you understand the overall implication of the thread and my basic objection.

First, let me underline my basic postulate. I agree, a group attack by aggressors is a savage act with no redeeming value.

Other than that, you're pretty much incorrect.

I have crossed paths with many folks who could easily be the subject of this thread. And let me educate you to one important fact--they are far from being cowards, either alone or in groups.

Most of these guys just like to fight, in fact, I think they live for Friday nights, cheap drink specials and busting heads. I also believe that many of these "ultimate fighter" specials you see on TV were spawned by these folks. Perhaps the early contestants were in fact these very folks. They're tough, they're used to pain, and they enjoy inflicting it.

As to your overall evaluation that many of these folks are "devoid of brains," let me also inform you that you are pretty much incorrect.

I lived in their tough world for over five years. But after my IQ was measured as a child I was separated into accelerated and gifted & talented schools. Even for a bi-polar, my synaptic speed is quick. In dealing with other people in this environment you seem to despise, I've found that the 'mechanics' who design custom bikes are actually artists.

TV's Jesse James obviously is in this higher intellectual sect, turning to mechanics simply because he was bored as a child.

But I have also learned something else about people who stand out and have the nerve to succeed. For some reason, it just seems to tick other people off. There's even a German word for the idea, "Schadenfreude."

If I'm tough, then I must be a coward on steroids. If I'm smart, I must have cheated on exams. And when I fail, as most people do, then there are legions who delight in that fall from grace.

Don't fall for the stereotyping. Don't underestimate the guy who refuses to be beaten or will not back down.

As I have stated, I have seen more drunken, mouthy Barney Fife types start trouble than any lurking hulk with a bad attitude. Tough guys know they are tough, there's no honor in seeking out the weak.

But just because you feel you have a higher breeding, it is no license to enrage them.

And never when I'm eating a perfect cheeseburger.

[Wildalaska]

Can you seriously tell me that you never perceive threats based on age, gender, clothing, behavior, demeanor, "gut instinct"?

Reacting based on hinkiness requires articulable facts. I dont see any in your example


WildnotaverygoodexampleAlaska TM

[TexasSeaRay]

sw florida.... so I am to understand that you are advocating that its ok for you to break the law whenever you feel like it dosn't suit your purpose? what then when others do it? or, worse yet, what if you got caught, and all that press was on you? seems like an attitude like that just feeds the stereotypes that we law abiding, responsible firearms owners are trying to get out of the media, huh? obeying the law is what responsible people do. if you don't agree with a law, then get a lobby together and change it. but i cannot and will not advocate breaking the law at your own whim, nor recommending that others do so.

? ? ?

I didn't read where he was advocating breaking a law.

A sign in a business window saying "no guns" is not a law--it's a policy of that business. My policy is to ignore such dumbass company policies unless their sign has specifically met the letter of the law (regarding "no firearms) of the state they reside and do business in. In other words, the sign had better have the USC or state stautue code on it that informs me it is specifically prohibited.

The place I work part-time at now until I fully retire has a policy of "no weapons on company property." Stuff that. My carry gun is under the seat of my truck every single time I drive up to work.

And guess what? I'm not breaking the law. I'm sure as hell violating company policy, but I am not--repeat, NOT--breaking the law.

Jeff

[sgtdemeo]

ok, perhaps i was mistaken about the law being broken, however, i still feel the same way about my advice. when i enter someone elses property, even if i have been invited, or if i have every right to be there, as in the case of a store, i am responsible to follow the wishes of the person who owns the property. even if it isn't breaking the law, it still isn't the right thing to do, and sure as hell is pretty disrespectful to another totally law abiding citizen. bottom line is, if i owned a store, i would expect that you follow my rules when entering. if not, then simply shop somewhere else. bottom line. i guess what i am complaining about is the attitudeof I am above that rule, or that said rule must only apply to others. wrong. they apply to all, and as i said, if you don't agree with the store policy, then shuffle off and take your business elsewhere, or follow the rules. bottom line.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by sgtdemeo

i am responsible to follow the wishes of the person who owns the property

This is correct. The owner of the property trumps 'rights.'

Oh, I am all for enumerated rights. However, the fundmental right of the Revolutionary War was to enjoy one's work and property without the monarchy demanding he house British soldiers.

Now, when it comes to firearms, I wouldn't care if TexasSeaRay came to my home with a door-gun off a Heuy gunship. I enjoy firearms, and I want to mingle with people and hunters who are like-minded.

However, you cannot smoke in my home. And my guess is that I cannot overhaul a Sportster engine on TexasSeaRay's coffee table--at least, not without permission.

This element ties into our debate here, and that centers on respect. One of the elements of this, again, is to teach those children in your care that other people have rights, and you cannot act like a little hooligan every time your blood rises.

For example, as a boy, our school bus dropped me off near home, but I had to walk a few blocks. I could shave off a good distance if I cut through the backyard of a woman who's entire yard was gigantic flowers.

This woman called my Mom and asked her to instruct me that her yard was not a turnpike, and I was to stop walking there without permission.

Now, I wasn't going to hurt her flowers, in fact, I doubt if one little boy was going to wear a path in that yard. But that wasn't the issue. Her yard wasn't the road. That much I understood, and I never did it again.

The concept of understanding boundaries also applies to adults. If I was to return to my boyhood home, I still wouldn't use that woman's yard.

[Jay1958]

I have an increased sensitivity to this particular topic because I happen to be a 6'3", dark-skinned, black man and I have been the subject of this type of "wary behavior" for most of my life -- as recently as yesterday.

So, DoItRight, if four young male caucasian (skinheads, punks, whatever, I'm no expert on their "culture") that I was a little concerned about had walked in on you in a building where your only exit was to go thru them, and they stood right at the door, blocking it, with no apparent business to conduct and no apparent reason for being there - it wouldn't have crossed your mind that maybe they were considering robbing or assaulting you?