Help me decide PTR-91 or ORF FAL build!!!

[zach13168]

was looking to buy a JDL PTR-91 but after hearing all the good things about Ohio Rapid Fire I got thinking. Would a ORF FAL build be a better purchase? This rifle would be my SHTF rifle and needs to be $800 or less.

Thanks
Zach

[Adam Firestone]

If this is going to be your TEOTWAWKI rifle, then I suggest, in light of ammunition and spare parts availability, number of rounds you can carry at any given time, ease of follow up shots, and modularity, that you consider buying a rack grade AR-15A2 or M-4gery.

[iamkris]

I've only heard good things about ORF also. Nothing wrong with the ORF but if you can spend $800 get a DSA STG58A. Mine is absolutely beautiful and shoots 1" to 1-1/2" with Port and SA surplus all day long.

Definitely do a search on this. This subject has been covered at least a dozen times on this board. In the end it comes down to personal preference.

I have owned a HK G3 (Century C91 that was a perfect build...not typical Century crap) and a DSA STG 58A. I still own the FAL and sold the G3...here's why:

FAL wins on the following
* FAL has overall superior ergonomics for me
* FAL has bolt open (G3 does not)
* Couldn't reach either selector without changing grip...can fix that on FAL with L1A1 selector
* FAL mag release is easier to manipulate (assuming no paddle release on G3, if so then equal)
* FAL charging handle is in appropriate place (what idiot puts the charging handle near the muzzle of a rifle?)
* FAL breaks down/easier to clean and maintain MUCH easier than G3. WAY better than the G3 with the clunky pins, removal of the buttstock, trigger pack sitting on a shelf that as to be JUST so.
* FAL has more simple locking mechanism
* FAL is "prettier" (subjective)
* FAL has adjustable gas system (but I personally don't see that as a big deal)
* Aftermarket Goodies -- FAL hands down. Easy to build (not as easy as an AR) and lots of companies supply aftermarket stuff for them...not so many for the G3


Here's where G3 wins
* Feels slightly more balanced/handy (subjective)
* G3 mags are better designed and snap in with more authority

Ties:
* Weight -- about the same
* Reliabilty -- HK fans say their system is more reliable. FAL was choice for 90+ countries and piston op gas systems are uber reliable. A wash in my opinion.
* Cost -- About the same -- Century builds of either ab out $500, PTR91 to ORF / DSA about $700-900, the real deal about the same.
* Both are accurate for a MBR (2-3 MOA) ... HK fans will sy that their rifle is more accurate but I can find equal number of accurate / inaccurate G3's and FALs from people I know. My DSA will shoot 1-2 MOA with Port surplus
* Both have similar recoil but impulse is different

That's it...usiing those criteria, FAL wins hands down for me. YMMV

That said, I will eventually buy a PTR91 (the only decent HK clone...save maybe Ohio Rapid Fire build). I've actually been in love with the HK91 since I was a kid...warts and all.

[WmD]

I had been considering and comparing the two for several months and finally broke down and picked up a FAL carbine and am glad I did. I too didnt want to break the bank and wanted a quality firearm in a 308 carbine type format for portabilty as a powerful SHTF type of weapon.

Out of all the G3/HK91 and CETME clones I inspected I definitely liked the PTR91 the best as it appears to be a well built quality firearm. I testfired a Federal G3 "FA91" and was not impressed at all. I dont care for the charging handle to be on the front of the rifle near the muzzle (awkward location, imaging being in an intense firefight and having to reach all the way forward to the charging handle???) I have read of the receiver durabilty as being an issue. I wouldnt want to be put in position where the receiver gets dinged due to beind dropped or something banging into it resulting in the rifle not cycling?????? Definitely not for me.... I also dont really care for the way the rifle breaks down to clean. Also it weighs in at nearly a hefty 10lbs...

The FAL is a very good weapon, has a myrad of available parts, is easy to work on and reliable. I particularly like the ability to retain my hand on the grip and with my other hand pull back the charging handle, reach with a finger to hold the bolt open, then replace the mag and release the bolt all w/o having to remove my hand on the grip. After a few minutes I can do this without taking my eyes off my sights which is an unbelievable design. This is definitely the most user friendly platform I've used.

I agree with the DSA being a guaranteed quality weapon (by DSA of course). I would definitely stay away from anything Century or Hesse related. I had a century L1A1 years ago and didnt care for its build quality and got rid of it, you typically get what u pay for. It ultimately comes down to the quality of parts/receiver and definitely the quality of build. Check out www.falfiles.com for more information. From what I've read Imbel and dsarms receivers are quality pieces. There are a number of quality builders out there who can provide a solidly built platform that wont break the bank such as arizona response systems, dsarms, azex, etc.

The Fal varient I picked up is one build off an entreprise receiver (inch so its really a l1a1) w/ a 16" barrel w/ a flash suppressor that I picked up at the local show. It only weighs 8.5 lbs and is the same length as my carbine AR15. It shoots great and can do 2MOA w/ surplus...and has a decent trigger. What more could u want? I have both AKs and ARs that I considered as my SHTF weapon of choice but they have been replaced when the application comes down to the need to have some range and penetration capability that the 308 provides over the 223 and 7.62x39....

Just my 2 cents for what its worth - good luck w/ you decision....

[ghettopettingzoo]

FAL MAGS COME IN 308. You can use them on the new bushmaster 308 ar15s or ar10s or what ever they are.

[WmD]

Yes the bushmaster 308 (ar10 but havent actually seen anyone offically call it an ar10) takes fal mags, AR15s do not (223 cal)...

Bushmaster carbine will set you back $1500+, armalite ar10 about the same, eagle arms slightly less... I have a dpms lr308 which is a tack driver but it could become a liability in an intense firefight if it breaks down. I am yet to see or experience any real reliabilty issues with my fal but have experienced extraction issues in my dpms lr308 requiring breaking it down to clear. When your life is on the line I'll go for the proven reliable platform thats decently accurate over the naildriver that may fail on you when you need it the most.

[FirstFreedom]

Hey iamkris, could you perform that same analysis with M14-type vs. FAL?

[iamkris]

What and start a flame war?

Actually, I'm finally getting a bonus from my company this year after several years of nuttin'. Agreed with the home financial manager (e.g., wife) that a new rifle will consume part of that. Intend it to be an M1A. Maybe I'll do that analysis this summer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, OK, I've shot my buddy's M14 NM a bunch so here's what I have as a preliminary analysis.

FAL wins on the following
* FAL has overall superior ergonomics for me (subjective but I like pistol grips better)
* I like the selector location (with the L1A1 selector) better on the FAL...just never got used to the Garand/M14 push-it-forward-with-your-trigger-finger safety.
* FAL charging handle is better placed for me...I'm a righty and like manipulate it with my left hand
* FAL breaks down/easier to clean and maintain MUCH easier than M14. No cleaning from the breech is a big downside of M14 IMO. I can have the bolt out of an FAL and be cleaning it by the time you get the trigger pack out of the M14.
* FAL has more simple bolt locking mechanism
* FAL has adjustable gas system (but I personally don't see that as a big deal)
* Operating system -- I think the internal gas piston system is better than the big, external op rod system. Personal opinion.
* M14 mags are overpriced (T57s from Taiwan help but you still can't beat $4-10 mags in good shape)
* Cost -- you can get a good, service grade FAL for $700-1000. Base model M14 will cost $200-500 more. Top of the line rifles about equal.

Here's where M14 wins:
* M14 is "prettier" (subjective)
* M14 Feels slightly more balanced/handy (subjective)
* Sights are MUCH better...US weapons designers seem to understand that good sights and battle-worthy sights are not mutually exclusive
* Accuracy potential -- service grade rifles are about equal between M14 and FAL. M14 can be made much more accurate but these aren't rifles you'd want to blast away with. Tend to be finicky YMMV
* Scope mounting -- even with the requirement to mount on the side of the receiver, the mounts for the M14 tend to be more solid, probably as a result of development as a sniper/DMR system. But they are expensive!
* Trigger -- stock M14 trigger is usually as good as a tuned FAL trigger

Ties:
* Bolt open
* Mag release -- equal
* Weight -- about the same
* Reliabilty -- same
* Mag design -- both good and rugged
* Recoil -- same
* Aftermarket goodies -- same

Based on that they are a tie in my book. Depends on what you value personally. The M14 strikes me a a rifleman's rifle, the FAL as a hardcore battle rifle. We'll see if my opinion changes after I get one for myself and live with it.

[WmD]

fal vs m14/m1a

Definitely the m1a hands down over the fal in my book. I have both and will not part with either. M1a has excellent accuracy potential, an outstanding 2 stage trigger, and excellent sights. They are equivalent in reliability, fit, function and balance. I prefer the ergonomics of the fal and its ease to field strip and clean. Since most Fals are built from used parts, the finish/material and build quality edge would go to the M1a in most cases.

[zach13168]

Thanks for all the help fellas!

Zach

[iamkris]

WmD

I know you qualified your comments with "most" but I'll put my DSA FAL up neck and neck with ANY M1A for build quality.

Still, looking forward to getting to know an M1A in the future.

[WmD]

I agree that the DSA FALs are an exception in build quality as they are some of the nicer ones out there. I particularly like the higher end ones but they are $$$... Most FALs however are built from used parts...

My entreprise Fal carbine for example is no where close to fit/finish to my match M1A.... and the POS century l1a1 I got rid of is not even in the ballpark...

[iamkris]

WmD == you're right about that. My buddy (the same guy who has the beutiful Fulton Armory NM) has a piece of crap Century built FAL. It is truely pathetic.