What if a gang attacked me?

[sw_florida]

The 'no guns' signs, like at UPS (FedEx doesn't have them), is in the same category as 'no red underwears'. The propery owner will never find out what I wear, so in this case I don't care. The property owner thinks a no-guns-policy will eliminate robbery and assault. Let the property owner continue to live in that dream...

[sw_florida]

Have you hugged your hand gun today?

[Jay1958]

Reacting based on hinkiness requires articulable facts. I dont see any in your example

WildAlaska,

Reacting? My "reaction" was to be alert and aware and somewhat concerned. I already stated that if I had a weapon at the time, my actions would have been NO DIFFERENT. It wasn't like I was going to draw down on them on the basis that I was concerned that they MIGHT be up to "no good" and that a robbery attempt MIGHT POSSIBLY occur.

If I had posted this story and told how that I saw them come in, then turned my back and ignored them, and then got my wallet stolen and was beaten to a pulp and cut in the process - the same people who are faulting me for "overreacting" would probably be the same ones faulting me for not going on full alert and preparing for the possibility of a imminent robbery/assault attempt...!

Whatever...

Reminds me of a girl I once dated BRIEFLY. When I "A", she wanted "B". When I did "B", what she really wished I had done was "C". No one could do anything without her finding fault and picking them apart...

Here are a few articulable facts:

- males are more than five times more likely to commit a crime than females
- 68% of robberies are committed by males between age 12 to 34
-- source: Dept of Justice website

Here is an articulable opinion, mine:

- these guys looked and acted like thugs who might be looking for trouble

[DoItRight]

Originally Posted by Jay1958

So, DoItRight, if four young male caucasian (skinheads, punks, whatever, I'm no expert on their "culture") that I was a little concerned about had walked in on you in a building where your only exit was to go thru them, and they stood right at the door, blocking it, with no apparent business to conduct and no apparent reason for being there - it wouldn't have crossed your mind that maybe they were considering robbing or assaulting you?

In a public place, during business hours? No.

If they weren't acting in a threatening manner, "just talking and cutting up among themselves", I would have taken them at face value that they were a group of guys hanging out doing whatever it is they were doing.

FYI, I have been assaulted by a group of "young male caucasians" before -- but not under these circumstances. That time, I was a teenager playing tennis with 2 black friends at a public park. We were chased away by a group of bat-swinging, brick-throwing, insult-hurling "young male caucasians" who felt that Blacks had no business playing tennis on a public tennis court on a Saturday afternoon -- but that's another story. Suffice it to say that Mt. Greenwood park in Chicago back in 1975 was a very different place than it is today. If you're from Chicago, you'll understand. (No point being made here other than "we've all had our share of bad experiences.")

Originally Posted by DoItRight

Having said all of that, I am the biggest proponent in the world of the notion that "the best way to avoid trouble is to avoid trouble." And the best way to do that is to listen to your "Spidey sense."

That's obviously what you were doing at the UPS Store and I simply can't fault you for it. Just like the young fellas didn't do anything overt, neither did you -- you were just "being aware."

As I mentioned above, I had no problem with your thinking. You did what you thought you had to do and since there were no overt actions on anyone's part, no harm-no foul.

The point I was making in my rant is that not everyone who looks different than you and acts differently than you expect is out to harm you. You do have to "be aware" of your surroundings but not to the point that every group of "different looking individuals" becomes a group of "thugs looking for trouble."

[Jay1958]

In a public place, during business hours? No.

Okay, we are beating a dead horse here, but this "public place" was a UPS shipping center in an industrial park, in a somewhat remote area, and there was no one present in the room except for the five of us - no employees, no other customers.

[sw_florida]

Jay1958, you are entitled to feel what ever you felt.

Personally, I often feel uneasy about shady characters. My solution is to have nothing to do with them, not stand close to them, etc. It is my life.

[TexasSeaRay]

This is correct. The owner of the property trumps 'rights.'

Not always, and not without notable exceptions to the law.

If I have a public business, I cannot put up a sign that says "whites only" or "men only" or "No Jews." I especially cannot openly employ those attitudes/tactics in hiring practices.

Now, I'm not saying I agree with that. I'm a believer in property owner's rights. And I believe a business should be allowed to only serve whites or blacks or Jews or deny them service or employment. I think the market place would show them a huge backlash (as it should be), but they should be free to be a bigoted idiot if they so desire.

However, if a property owner/business owner accepts so much as one nickel of public money (ie, tax dollars) or gets tax breaks, then he/she has another set of rules they must operate by and that changes the equation substantially.

Oh, I am all for enumerated rights. However, the fundmental right of the Revolutionary War was to enjoy one's work and property without the monarchy demanding he house British soldiers.

Which is why in another scenario somewhere else on this forum, I stated that there is no way in hell I would give over a gun to a cop who "needed" it or demanded it because of a "situation."

I see little difference between that and being forced to quarter soldiers.

Now, when it comes to firearms, I wouldn't care if TexasSeaRay came to my home with a door-gun off a Heuy gunship. I enjoy firearms, and I want to mingle with people and hunters who are like-minded.

My point with CC is that if you carry in such a manner that no one is ever the wiser, what someone doesn't know isn't going to bother them. If I were to come to your house, the only way you'd know I was armed is if you were to frisk me or walk me through a magnotometer.

However, you cannot smoke in my home. And my guess is that I cannot overhaul a Sportster engine on TexasSeaRay's coffee table--at least, not without permission.

Can't smoke in my house either. As far as overhauling a hawg motor on the coffee table, you'd have to ask the missus about that.

This element ties into our debate here, and that centers on respect. One of the elements of this, again, is to teach those children in your care that other people have rights, and you cannot act like a little hooligan every time your blood rises.

You're right. This is a function of attitude and maturity rather than firearms or concealed carry. People act like idiots and thugs with or without a weapon.

Jeff

[Jay1958]

sw_florida wrote:

Jay1958, you are entitled to feel what ever you felt.

Personally, I often feel uneasy about shady characters. My solution is to have nothing to do with them, not stand close to them, etc. It is my life.

I'm glad you understand where I am coming from.

The whole point that I was trying to make, that seems to have been completely missed, is that you don't always know when and where things may go bad.

A lot of people on this board keep saying "avoid those situations", and the only real point I was trying to make is that I felt like I ended up in a very vulnerable, weak position without any real way of knowing what I was walking into.

Regardless of what those four guys actual intentions were, if they would have pulled guns and/or knives and set about robbing me and the cash register/front counter, what seemed like a very low-risk situation: going to ship a package at a UPS Customer Center at one of their service hubs, might have turned out to be quite literally the death of me.

The question that I was trying to ask is: if in fact that would have happened, how could that situation have been avoided? Pay someone to run your errands? Stay inside your castle and put alligators in the moat?

Situations that you don't want to find yourself in, can't always be avoided.

[sw_florida]

I went to the post office today. Beforehand I had put my large .357 magnum in the glove compartment. On the parking lot of the post office I drove by the entrance and looked for shady characters, inside or outside parked cars. I saw none. I parked right outside the entrance. I did my errand. Returned to my car. Popped my heavy baby back in its hip holster and drove off. Had there been warning signals when I arrived I would have driven to another post office. Snug as a bug in a rug.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by sw_florida

looked for shady characters

If I had been there, what would I have looked like? Remember, I was an corporate executive officer for almost 30 years.

And like I always warn folks, I'm really a 14 year old high school girl on the school cheerleading squad who portrays an old biker on discussion forums.

[Creature]

Here is a very interesting article with some very pertinent lessons to be learned:

http://www.slate.com/id/2178230

[David Armstrong]

A sign in a business window saying "no guns" is not a law--it's a policy of that business.

Let's not be real quick to use a broad brush here. There are a number of states where that IS a law, and violating it can get you a fine, jail time, and loss of CCW license.

My point with CC is that if you carry in such a manner that no one is ever the wiser, what someone doesn't know isn't going to bother them.

I think that sort of misses the point. Just because it is not known/discovered doesn't make it right. I don't know if my neighbor is stealing cable TV. But if he is, it is wrong and should not be condoned.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Let's not be real quick to use a broad brush here.

Mr. Armstrong, thank you for underlining that fact.

Many times during these debates I think that the generalities we use become "facts" as the discussion continues.

For example, as this thread stretched on it was clear to me that our use of the word "gang" translated to "any time I am outnumbered."

Obviously you cannot hide behind that if you are the aggressor and you are the one that initiated the attack.

Also, you have pointed out another flaw in the overall reasoning in private CCW. What is legal in East T-Shirt Iowa is not protected by the same statutes as in Eskimo Pants, Alaska.

Now, most of us enjoy target shooting and hunting and we're quite savvy abut the patchwork quilt of laws and their idiocy. But like them or not, if you break a law, you do the time.

My concern has always been that one guy in a thousand that thinks because he read something in a computer forum it is fact and protection under law.

This is the nut-job who stumbles into a Denny's Restaurant at zero-dark-thirty. He finds me and a few friends peacefully out on the highway trying to get home, and comes up blazing because an individual is always 'right' when facing a 'gang.'

He knows this. He read it in a forum.

[David Armstrong]

He knows this. He read it in a forum.

LOL! I agree, sometimes I think most of the forums on the 'net should have a mandatory "WARNING: this is the internet, not real life. Use this information at your own risk!"

[sw_florida]

The Tourist, what kind of attitude is that you are cultivating on your own behalf? Don't you think I and most others here can differ between black scumbag and a decent black person? It's not the color of a person's skin that defines a person; it's his attitude.

Wake up, will you? Or do you take pride in dragging down the black community?

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

LOL! I agree

It's very serious to me. (And that comment is not directed to you, I find the situation humorous, myself.)

I was once banned from a forum because they believed I only posed as a real biker.

Their 'evidence'?

Well, I admitted to being white collar, I have a college degree, and my use of language "was not something they had ever seen." Hence, I must be a poser.

The day it happened I was so angry I actually imagined driving my front wheel over the groin of the instigator, crushing his gonads, and laughing, "Well, this isn't really happening, you said this bike doesn't truly exist!"

But, for the purposes of this debate (and frankly other ones) I feel you should always be careful in stating facts, privileges as opposed to rights, quotes from media sources, and the implications of historical situations.

Or, come see me and watch me sharpen. You can polish the chrome on my bike while you wait. (I'm still ticked off.)

[CrazyIvan007]

What if a gang attacked me?

Aim for the person who is most likely the leader. Hopefully his demise will cause disertion of his followers.

If they continue, try for whoever you can.

[Alleykat]

For the life of me, I can't see where njtrigger singled out bikers, Tourist. In fact, I rarely hear of bikers being referred to as a gang. I think he's referring more to true gangs like MS-13, Crips, Bloods, etc.

I agree 100%. The response regarding "smartass townies" and bikers was just typical "wrong-side-of-the-tracks-upbringing", lower middle-class silliness.

[porkskin]

I still think that if one person insults your group, then ONE person from your group steps up. I just don't see a situation where "Barney Fife" would require more than one person to set him straight.

[benny27]

Stay armed and loaded to the hilt, and when you sense one of these altercations about to happen turn around and say which one of you m-fer's wants to die first.. they're nothing but punks I say kill'em all or die trying, just my advice.

[1911zep]

krav magna. maga? not sure the spelling.. but it's mostly yiddish for wail on some ass, I think. standard issue for the mossad, isreali defense (offense?) forces. incorporates weapons (knives, pistols, m16s with bayonets, whatever). looks fairly effective, although I've never had any formal training in it or any other fighting art.

all that being said, I think you're better off to do all you can to be sure you don't get into such scenarios in the first place.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Alleykat

The response regarding "smartass townies" and bikers was just typical "wrong-side-of-the-tracks-upbringing"

Why should my meal be interrupted because some brain-donor can't keep his hands to himself? Why does graduating from college make me a target? Why does my ownership of a Harley imply anything?

The fact is that idiots come in all flavors. A biker quietly eating dinner is not a target for your amusement. So don't be surprised is your smart alec comments land you on the floor with a boot in your azz.

BTW, it's my experience that today's bikers make a whole lot more money and come from a better neighborhood than their detractors. Every price a Harley?

As for my upbringing, I always know which fork to use.

[Wildalaska]

As for my upbringing, I always know which fork to use.

Ummm...the one with the spike thingies?



WildemilypostAlaska TM

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Wildalaska

which fork to use...Ummm...the one with the spike thingies?

No, but it's the one just to the left...

I'm going to harp on this thing until the Walter Mitty's get it right.

It's the Barney Fifes that usually start fights.

Why would a scarred, rock-hard muscled 250 pound throttle jockey grab a bespeckled weinie in a public place--and then need six other guys to help put him down?

Sorry, pal, it don't happen.

Now, do drunken townies wander over to guys to impress their girl friends, or more properly their drinking buddies. Yes, all of the time.

Now, listen up. This is important.

After the idiot is thrown out, squealing into the night, a Monday morning appears on the horizon, and Einstein has to go back to work at the carwash, or The Goodwill sorting center or his plasma donation outlet.

His face has been pummeled by a really angry guy who has just been served a perfect cheeseburger after a hard day of really working, and the innocent guy is miffed.

So, the now sober townie is asked by his equally squalid friends what happened. And he doesn't want to admit the truth. So through his remaining eleven teeth (you'll remember that one aspect of a townie is that they have the same number of teeth as toes) he whimpers...

"It was a gang, I tell ya.' It was six, no fourteen bikers/cowboys/stevedores with wrought iron muscles, each one carrying a dozen weapons. Of course, I successfully fought them all off bravely, until another twenty jumped me from behind..."

Yakkety, yakkety. If I've heard this story once...

My question is simply this. Why do you so easily believe the idiot, and not me?

[pax]

And with that -- this thread has wandered a long way from realistically discussing strategies and tactics.

Closed.

pax