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Old January 22, 2016, 10:52 PM   #26
Metal god
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Jeep hammer :

You talk as if you post more on other forums then here at TFL . You've now mention a few time how people give you a hard time about things you post . you're not going to get a lot of that here . The mods run a pretty tight ship over here . I've not seen anything over the top from you as of yet . The only thing I see that you're posting that does not seem to have any relevance to this thread is a lot of talk about 223 Rem chambers . The OP does not have one and most AR's won't either .

Do you post over on calguns very often . I see a lot attitude over there with little substance .
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Old January 23, 2016, 09:46 AM   #27
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I'm mostly on the builders guild, I only post on a couple of these open forums.
I just had a crap fight with a guy on a little firearms section of a forum that wasn't dedicated to firearms.
I laid hands on 55 gallon barrels of military brass & some open range brass, and was considering selling some reconditioned brass (40K brass to a barrel, 17 barrels),
It was the usual argument, "You don't have to full length resized", "There is a difference in the cases", "You don't have to anneal" sort of thing.
Lots of insults, name calling, "I do it this way" sorts of things.
Lots of wild claims about shooting 900 yards and keeping a 3" groups...
Couldn't keep 'Reconditioned, Once Fired Brass' & the brass he neck sizes for HIS rifle straight...

I talk a lot about .223 Rem simply because it shares a case with the 5.56.
Since the two CASES interchange, and this is a RELOADING forum,
I just want to be clear about load data for each round.

With a 5,000 PSI or greater difference in pressure, and the potential for driving chamber pressures to the moon with a big, heavy bullet shoved into a .223 Chamber right up against the rifling, I don't want any 'Issues' from something *I* might have posted.

I've got more than one load manual that DOES NOT differentiate between load data for .223 vs 5.56, mostly those booklets from powder manufacturers,
My early Speer/RCBS manuals don't differentiate either.
NRA Handloading manual says there is a SAAMI warning issued, but doesn't list separate data for 5.56.

Probably adds to the confusion...

Add that to the fact that people asking basic questions are often novices to hand loading, and I thought I'd just be clear about what barrel/chamber they were working with before giving data on loads.

I don't want to be a buzz kill, or preacher, but I was standing next to a really good friend when his rifle turned into high velocity scrap metal.
He wasn't seriously hurt, but it was a wake up call since I was doing exactly the same thing he was at the time.

Last edited by JeepHammer; January 23, 2016 at 09:56 AM.
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Old January 23, 2016, 08:45 PM   #28
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JeepHammer:Welcome!

I do have a different point of view on some things you have said.
But we can respectfully discuss it.
I do agree there are some differences in chambering 5.56 vs 223.And variants such as the Wylde.Its mostly about A) bullet profile/leade/throat,and B)Accuracy(tighter) versus military reliability(looser).Generally,.223 will be twisted for lighter bullets,and will be throated for them,too.
And I agree seating into the rifling vs some bullet jump makes a difference in pressure.
Where we disagree is in the difference in the max pressure between 5.56 and .223.Bear with me a second.
5.56 pressure designation is a NATO spec.It is done by a CIP method.This process is different than the SAAMI method.They are two different processes and two different scales.They do not line up.
Here is a link to an informative article:
http://ballistictools.com/articles/5...-and-facts.php

I will suggest some more to consider.
Certainly an AR type rifle can be blown up via a handloading error.No argument.
But I will suggest that if you are using a rifle powder of an appropriate burn rate,and if there is not an out of battery discharge,it would be unlikely to blow up a rifle with an overcharge.
I'll agree you can open up a primer pocket,wide open.You might blow a magazine out.
But a .223/5.56 case just does not hold that much powder.In many cases,the "max" charge is determined by compressed load.

If a max safe load is 23.5 gr of Boomflash powder,you might be able to get 26 gr of Boomflash in the case,und still seat a bullet.You might have the primer fall out.You might blow a primer.You might seriously stick a case and tear off the rim.
But if you turn an AR into flying pieces of metal,there is something else going on.

If it is not an out of battery,I'd look to bore obstruction or most likely,wrong powder was loaded somehow.
A .223 case of handgun powder will wreck a rifle.

We may disagree,and that is Ok.
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Old January 23, 2016, 09:09 PM   #29
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My last comment leads to this one for the Op.

You are an experienced pistol reloader,beginning on 223?

Forgive me if I remind you of something you already know.
A) It is not good practice to leave powder in the hopper.It may deteriorate in the light,and its not good for the hopper,but worse,it can be mis-identified.

You never want to get handgun powder in a rifle load(unless its a sub-load)

B) Only one powder container on the bench.Read the label outloud,twice,before you pour it in the hopper.

With a handgun,we are more concerned about the double charge.Not likely in a rifle.
But the wrong powder,is a wreck

Be careful about how you organize your primers.Pistol primers in your .223/5,56 will pierce.It does bad things.The disc of metal enters the bolt,along with gas.Bolt face,flash hole,and firing pin tip get gas erosion.

Firing pin may get stuck forward.That can cause out of battery ignition.That is bad.

Last edited by HiBC; January 23, 2016 at 09:14 PM.
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Old January 23, 2016, 09:41 PM   #30
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Quote:
A) It is not good practice to leave powder in the hopper.It may deteriorate in the light,and its not good for the hopper,but worse,it can be mis-identified.
No hopper here. I dip everything. The 1.6cc dipper in this case averages 22.8 grains of Varget.
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Old January 23, 2016, 11:34 PM   #31
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With the 62gr Armscor I run:
25.7gr Varget
CCI #400 small rifle
2.250 over all length


This results in 2921fps with a standard deviation of 22fps
This is from a 20" 1 in 7 barrel.

I had some problems with Winchester primers developing pin holes in the center of the firing pin divot,(eroding the center of the firing pin) so I switched to the CCI.

Now I tend to run H335 or Tac powder with a CCI #450 small rifle magnum primer or a CCI #41 Nato small rifle primer.

The Winchester primers were giving me horribly inconsistent velocities with the H335 or Tac. They were also still getting pin holes even at starting powder charges.

CCI #400 were an improvement on the standard deviation, but then I read a reloading manual that insisted on using a magnum primer with fine ball powder for better ignition.

Varget is not a fine ball powder so I use the #400 primers.

Don't know what is wrong with the Win primers, I used to use them exclusively for the last 20 years.

P.S. I have around 3500 Winchester small rifle primers for sale/trade for anyone in central/eastern MT, if anybody wants them.
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Old January 24, 2016, 12:08 AM   #32
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The only thing I'D add to advice for the OP is, the closer you get to max charges, the smaller the increments of charge weight increase should be. With .223, when I am within 1 full grain of maximum (roughly 4%), I increase charge weights by no more than 0.2 gr., and usually by 0.1gr. Perhaps this has already been said, but I didn't see it.
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Old January 24, 2016, 12:19 AM   #33
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Quote:
I do agree there are some differences in chambering 5.56 vs 223.And variants such as the Wylde.Its mostly about A) bullet profile/leade/throat,and B)Accuracy(tighter) versus military reliability(looser).Generally,.223 will be twisted for lighter bullets,and will be throated for them,too.
And I agree seating into the rifling vs some bullet jump makes a difference in pressure.
Where we disagree is in the difference in the max pressure between 5.56 and .223.Bear with me a second.
5.56 pressure designation is a NATO spec.It is done by a CIP method.This process is different than the SAAMI method.They are two different processes and two different scales.They do not line up.
I follow, and I've seen the article you posted.
I've also seen 3 rifles destroyed, one 10 feet beside me.

Second, this is a 'Novice' loader,
I'm not about to throw out ANYTHING that might cause any issues for him.
He will learn at his own pace, ask questions as he finds new loads or issues.

The link you posted is commonly quoted, but there are a BUNCH of other sites, including the SAAMI official site, that disagree.

I also don't want to confuse anyone with the Strictly SAAMI, Strictly NATO, or all the 'In Between' chambers that are out there when they first start out loading and getting into this...
SAAMI says NOT to use 5.56 NATO in a .223 Rem rifle, that should be good enough for anyone that doesn't do this to the 9th degree...

Some people just aren't tech geeks and don't much care as long at the rifle isn't going to try and stick a bolt in there face at high velocity...

I'll be glad to discuss the merits of what I've done or found out works for me,
But not on this thread.
Don't want to torpedo the OPs thread on a discussion of chambers when all he's asking for is some load data, not trying to recut the chamber.

The fun is in the SHOOTING, reloading is what I do so I can go SHOOTING!
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Old January 24, 2016, 12:55 AM   #34
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I have a S&W M&P 15 chambered for 5.56X45, it shows signs of over pressure with most 5.56X45 Mill spec factory ammo (esp M193). I was able to push a Hornady 55gr FMJ round in that rifle to 3200 fps, with no signs of over pressure.

The only real difference was the shape of the round and where it engaged the rifling. I was using 5.56 brass that was run through a different rifle that has no trouble with mill ammo.
Brass was trimmed to the same length that i trim all my 223 to.

What is stamped on the barrel may not be the deciding factor if a round is safe or not, that's why you work up to a load.

Most reloading manuals only give you info for 223. If they don't differentiate and list a load for both 223/5.56, its just a 223 load that works for 5.56 chambered rifles. If they do list separate data for 5.56, it may be a heavier load that should not be used with a 223 chamber. If your 5.56 chamber is tight and tends to show signs of over pressure, you would want to work up a 5.56 round using the standard practice of starting with a slightly reduced charge.

The only time I have ever seen a rifle blow up is when a 12 year old was shooting his new 243 with reloads from Grandpa. Grandpa may have forgotten to put powder in a round, and the next round sent the barrel down range and the scope left a dent in the roof. Kid was OK if a little shaken.
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Old January 24, 2016, 01:08 AM   #35
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I load for 223 bolt gun , 5.56 and 223 Wylde chambered AR rifles . My load development is virtually identical regardless as to what I'm loading for . In fact It's no different from the 308 , 270 & 30-30 I load for ( all bolt guns ) I use Redding bushing dies for everything but the 30-30 . Except for minor IMO differences in bullet hold and shoulder set back . The loading process is the same . Case prep is the same . If it's a new rifle . I first find the max COAL and seat my bullets .020 short of that unless the mag requires something different .

Start at minimum charge and work your way up .

Not sure why I posted that . Maybe it's starting to sound more complex then it really is . Stick with published data , work up from minimum and you should be GTG
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Last edited by Metal god; January 24, 2016 at 09:40 AM.
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Old January 24, 2016, 08:31 AM   #36
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JeepHammer
In reply,The object of your passion seems to be the dangers of firing 5.56 ammo in a .223 AR.
Then you suggest I not talk about chambers.
They are both AR.s.The difference is the chamber.It is all about the chamber,and primarily about the leade.
I agree,it is not recommended to use 5.56 Nato Ammo in a .223 chamber.Except,you can use it in a 223 Wylde chamber because it is throated for heavy bullets.
I agree that excessive pressure can result.I have read,in a"perfect storm" situation,excessive pressure up to the low 70,000 psi range can occur.
That is proof load range.Its not good.
But if you keep having rifles blow up around you,and you think the root cause is shooting 5.56 in .223 chambers,the rifles will keep blowing up because you are wrong in identifying your root cause.

Look to any cause that may result in an out of battery ignition.Among other possibilities,wrong(sensitive) primers

Look to any source of innapropriate powder,like pistol powder,contaminated powder,open container gunshow powder,etc

Look to any source of bore obstruction.

Example,our tactical hero is blazing away,he gets a stoppage.He does immediate action "Hoowah!" He pulls the trigger and his gun blows up.
His buddy with the progressive press,(expert) had a few "no powder" squib loads escape.Does his buddy raise his hand and say "My fault!" Maybe.
Mid 60's my brother brought home an AR-15 brand new.SN 34XX
In the 60's,I began loading.
Since then,I have been the go to mentor for a lot of folks,reloading.Some have taught others.
I'm talking 3 gunners with Dillon 1050s
Of all the folks I have helped over decades,not one has blown up a gun.Ever.(that I know of)

Another article:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

Last edited by HiBC; January 24, 2016 at 08:52 AM.
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Old January 24, 2016, 11:00 AM   #37
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I did NOT say not to talk about chambers,
I said to start a thread ON CHAMBERS,
I didn't want to screw up a 'Novice' thread with the debate.
Chambering conversations ALWAYS take up pages and pages...
Everybody does it differently, and they go on AT LENGHT about how *THEY* do it and the merits of what they do.

--------------

I saw one blow up while we were using 5.56 military surplus ammo.
No Squib, just destroyed the rifle and made me look for clean underwear.

I've seen two more blown up, one at Knob Creek range, sitting on tables.
I don't know what ammo they were shooting, only displayed as warnings against mixing loads.

I've seen Dozens, if not hundreds of pictures on the internet of blown up rifles, usually with warnings about mixing ammo.

SAAMI posed an 'Unsafe Condition' warning about running 5.56 ammo through a .223 chamber on the FRONT PAGE of their website.
It did NOT discuss primers, reloaded ammo, ect.
It was aimed at 5.56 NATO ammo in a .223 Chamber.

I personally haven't had any issues other than an occasional failure to cycle, but I watch/check my chambers pretty closely.

-----------

Since the advent of the 'In-Between' chambers that keep popping up, I don't hear about nearly as many blown up rifles.

I also don't spend nearly as much time at matches, sitting around BS-ing with guys that spent equally as much time at their ranges/matches.
I'm not around the 'Gun Bunch' as much, so I don't hear all the gossip.
(One reason I'm spending time on forums, I miss the interaction...)

I was just aiming to point out there WAS an issue with some rifles,
SAAMI and others pinpointed it as the ammo in the wrong chamber,
And pass that along since he was a 'Novice' reloader.
Something to be aware of...

SAFETY FIRST!

Wasn't trying to start anything, or delve into the intricacies of the chambers,
Which he doesn't need to do since he's already got the 5.56 NATO chamber if his barrel was stamped correctly...

Just curious, Has anyone ever heard of a bolt gun blowing up that didn't have a plugged barrel from a squib?

I had a bolt gun brought into the shop several years back, swell in the barrel, the guy had a squib and the next round knocked it out, they shot the rifle all day before bringing it in!
I would have liked to seen the brass from the round that knocked the squib out!
That would be a REAL conversation piece!
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Old January 25, 2016, 09:18 AM   #38
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Well I did some more depriming/full length resizing over the weekend (no shooting yet) and found that I can get away with lubing only every other case because there's enough lube left on the dies to permit relatively easy insertion/extraction (with a hand press) for one extra round. Then I pick up another lubed round and repeat.

After 150 or so cases processed so far, I have also found 30-40% of the cases were still under 1.760", so I went ahead and primed those.
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Old January 25, 2016, 09:26 AM   #39
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I suggest you lube every case.Sooner or later you will stick a dry one,and you will rip the rim off.And then you will say "Shukky Darn!!" and start a new thread,titled "Now what?"
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Old January 25, 2016, 10:27 AM   #40
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Yup. Lube them all. I just lube the bottom half of the case with RCBS lube.

I'm beginning to get a feel for why jeephammer catches a hard time on the other forum.
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Old January 25, 2016, 10:58 AM   #41
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OK, you guys convinced me. I guess I've been lucky so far.
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Old January 25, 2016, 12:09 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer
The chamber pressure should NOT exceed 55,000 PSI with a .223 Rem stamped barrel.
Chamber pressure of a 5.56 NATO barrel should not exceed 60,000 PSI.
Not exactly correct.

The 223 Remington and the 5.56 NATO actually run at the same pressures.

The difference is in the pressure testing devices and how pressures are determined.

CIP places their pressure transducer further forward than SAAMI, as a result CIP (NATO) rounds will read higher pressure than SAAMI tested rounds.

Testing a CIP round and a SAAMI round in the same test barrel either CIP or SAAMI will result in identical pressures.

Our Moderator Unclenick has explained this to us many times. Maybe he can chime in and state these facts better that I.
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Old January 25, 2016, 03:14 PM   #43
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When I got away from RCBS heavy/sticky lube, I got away from hydraulic dents in the cases.

When I went to a 'Sprits' lube, spray can or pump bottle, and just shaking the cases in a cardboard box, it took a TON of time out of lubing the cases since shaking rolls them against each other and you don't miss getting one lubed.

Stuck cases are the PITS!

There are several ways to remove a stuck case, none I'd call 'Easy' or 'Quick'...
Mine usually involves swaping out dies and dealing with the stuck case/die in the garage where I can use a REALLY big hammer!
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Old January 25, 2016, 04:27 PM   #44
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Steve, I started a conversation on the differences of .223 vs. 5.56 to get it off this page,
Find it here, https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...28#post6229828
Along with a reply to your post.
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Old January 26, 2016, 02:39 AM   #45
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I spray lube in a plastic shoe box from walmart with home brew case lube.
You could use any spray lube.
Like mentioned above just spray 4 or 5 times and shake.

The home brew lube is 16 parts isopropyl alcohol to 1 part liquid lanolin.
pretty much the same as Dillon spray lube and the spray stuff from Cabelas.
Sprayed over 5000 223 cases and i have only used about 12 oz.
Used to go through 1 can of Hornady One shot for every 500 223.
Was still getting spots of galling on the sides of the brass.
Home brew fixed that.
Although the One Shot does seem to be better for larger cases like 270 Win.
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Old January 26, 2016, 10:20 AM   #46
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I must use a lot less than some folks,
I used the aerosol stuff from Hornady, over 3,000 cases and it's not empty in the last week.
Not one single jam in the die, only one slightly dented case.

I did get a 'Reloading Buzz' from the fumes!

Last edited by JeepHammer; January 26, 2016 at 10:39 AM.
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Old January 26, 2016, 10:37 AM   #47
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SpaceCoast,
The old Winchester standby propellants will usually show velocity increases in hot weather.
I like them, they are dirty, but the price is right and they flow through most charge throwers with no issues.
When the weather hits the 80s or 90s, or I leave ammo/mags in direct sun light, I expect to see a velocity increase.
Win 748 in particular.

Nothing dangerous, but just enough to drive the crono readings crazy and feel a little more recoil, and give prairie dogs a new lease on life...

I'm really fond of Varget, and lately Benchmark.
Some powder throwers don't like Benchmark, usually the charge bar type.
Pricy, but consistent and accurate when you want to punch some REALLY small groups in paper (or varmints!)
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Old February 14, 2016, 12:27 PM   #48
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Good news on the reloads - we took them to the range yesterday and they shot fine - at least as well as the purchased ammo we also shot. No incidents at all, and the gun chambered and extracted everything perfectly.
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Old February 14, 2016, 01:21 PM   #49
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Glad to hear it worked out for you!
I was afrade the thread got side railed.

Look for a 'Donut' primer pin strike,
The dent from the firing pin, with a 'Donut' welled up around the divot from the firing pin.
Donut is the firing pin hole in the bolt, this will be your first sign of overpressure.

If you don't find that 'Donut' then you are COOKING!

Proper cycling is a VERY good sign you are about right,
A VERY good sign!

Now, if you want a 'Generic' way to check velocity (Muzzle Feet Per Second),
Hit the 100 yard range, or better yet, 200 yard range if one is available,
Set up 2 identical targets.
Fire 5 or better yet, 10 round groups at each, aiming dead center each time.

One target with a QUALITY factory load,
The second with your reloads.

If there is a SIGNIFICANT change in velocity, the group CENTER will shift.
The SLOWER rounds will impact lower (more time for gravity to work on them when they are slower).
No significant change, no large velocity changes, and you are running with QUALITY factory ammo.

Now the obsession starts...
How tight of a group can I shoot?... Maybe if I tweek this or that just a little...?
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