Unfired powder?

[cdoc42]

A friend and I were talking and he described this situation. He uses a 125gr jacketed HP in his .38 Special with 4.8gr of HP-38, with a small pistol primer. He notices debris in the fired cases that looks like unfired powder and wondered if he can use a magnum small pistol primer.

My thought is the small powder column lies at least horizontally in the case, perhaps even more toward the bullet base if the revolver is pointed downward to a significant degree (i.e., held in a holster prior to firing). I opined this could contribute to inadequate powder ignition compared to a powder that occupies more space in the case. He could try a magnum primer but should first back down on the charge which is now 0.1gr under maximum.

He's not anxious to change powders as he uses HP-38 in his 9mm and doesn't want to get into the expense of added inventory.

I'd appreciate any thoughts.

[NoSecondBest]

I've been loading for over fifty years. During that time I've found a number of powders that don't burn as clean as others. It doesn't cause a problem. What MV is your friend getting? How are the loads grouping? Other than seeing some unburned powder particles, what actual problems is this causing? I'd suggest he try a different powder and see if the results change. I shoot some guns that do this (mostly rifles) and they shoot great and it's not a problem. As I said, try some different powders.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Although there comparable in burn speed {HP 38 and Winchester 231.} I do believe this HP-38 Hodgdon powder does have more graphite than whats measured into 231s production. Graphite is used to coat powder kernels and done so to prevent clumping due to (settling.) Graphite to some degree also inhibits ignition. And that is probably what your friend is experiencing.
As far as Mag Primers use. I prefer not to use Hodgdons powders if at all possible. When I have no choice. (rifle or pistol) I always use Mag primers to ignite its charges no matter the Hodgdon name or charge amount.
If I recall right. Use of Mag primers was suggested by Hodgdon years ago for nearly every rifle & pistol powder Hodgdon marketed. I'm quite sure that promoted overall primer use no longer applies.

[mikld]

Are you sure it is unburned powder? Sometimes flakes appear to be unburned but are just residue/ash, especially in lower pressure situations. You may get suggestions to up the charge a bit and crimp harder...

[reddog81]

A magnum primer might help. From what I've read on the web your average magnum primer will get about 20 FPS more than a regular primer. That's a fairly small increase in pressure and not really a concern unless you're dealing with loads on the verge of being overpressure. If your load is a regular 38 load, not a +P load, the magnum primer might bump you into low +P territory.

A heavier crimp might help ignite the last bit of powder.

[cdoc42]

NoSecondBest, I believe he's not experiencing any problems with the load and accuracy other than the question of the possibility of powder that may not have ignited, and if use of a mag primer would resolve it.

SureShot, the graphite discussion makes sense. Of interest is he does not have the same problem using the same charge of HP-38 and bullet weight in his 9mm. As an aside, I'm surprised by your aversion to Hodgdon powders. Over my 40 years of loading, I accumulated an inventory of 36 powders and 60% are Hodgdon. I've used mag primers only in the slower burn rates as suggested by the manual recipes. What problem(s) did you have?

Mikld, it may well be ash, but as I said above, he doesn't see this at the same charge in a 9mm. Re: increasing the load, he is already 0.1gr under max; I'll suggest taking a closer look at his crimp, thanks for that observation.

[cdoc42]

reddog, I was posting at the same time as you, so I missed the opportunity to include you in my response above.

I don't think he's in +P territory. The Hodgdon reloading site stats are 934 fps with a XTP bullet (he's using a jacketed HP)at a max load of 4.9gr.

He's using 4.8gr. So if he used a mag primer and tighter crimp he shouldn't be in any dangerous territory, although I would do one, then add the other if no problems rather than doing both at the same time to start.

[NoSecondBest]

NoSecondBest, I believe he's not experiencing any problems with the load and accuracy other than the question of the possibility of powder that may not have ignited, and if use of a mag primer would resolve it.

I pretty much understood that. I guess I was trying to point out that if the velocity and accuracy were OK, there really isn't a problem with some powder residue in the case...or even in the barrel. If you're getting good accuracy and velocity, having some residue isn't a problem. Many powders leave some. It immediately comes to mind that Unique is famous for this in many loads. I get it with several rifle powders, some of which I also use in 357mag handguns. It's not a problem having this residue. It doesn't create any problems as it usually doesn't get any worse in the gun from shot to shot. I think the OP is noticing something that he hasn't seen before and questions whether or not it's a problem. It isn't. He's also not approaching +P loads with this load. The max per Hodgdon's website for 38Spl with this powder is 4.9g and their listing for a +P load is just a max of 5.3g. He's only near the top for 38Spl and well under +P.

[243winxb]

Some powders leave dirt. Eject fired rounds with muzzle up. This keeps the dirt from getting between the cylinder and ejector.

Photo of some misc dirt using a mag primer. Hs 6 .

My photo.

[Jim Watson]

I would not worry about it apart from the recommendation to eject empties muzzle up. I get unburnt powder from most any below maximum load of a ball process powder.

Once upon a time Hodgdon may have gotten powder with more graphite on it, but they have publicly announced for several years that HP38 and Win 231 are the Same Stuff. Dating back officially to them getting the distributorship for Winchester powder, but actually for longer than that. I recall a dealer at a gun show opening a 30 lb keg of powder to be weighed out into customers' own containers. It was labeled HP38 outside and had a 231 packing slip inside on top of the powder.

[briandg]

Almost any case can leave unburned powder under normal load under some circumstances. You can even throw out unburned black powder.if are finding a few flAkes of unburned powder in the ejected cases and all other things are normal, it's simple. A few grains of powder are igniting but not completely combustiing There are probably ten or more probable causes. This is not a concern.

[Nick_C_S]

125gr jacketed HP in his .38 Special with 4.8gr of HP-38

Are you sure it is unburned powder? Sometimes flakes appear to be unburned but are just residue/ash (soot), especially in lower pressure situations.

That's exactly what's happening. 4.8 grains W231/HP-38 under a 125 JHP is a low pressure round. Typically, this bullet/powder combo runs in the 5.2+ grain neighborhood (I'm not suggesting a charge weight. Any increase in charge requires a proper load work up).

I load a lot of ammo of this nature. The aformentioned recipe QuickLoads at only 12.7Kpsi; which would be in alignment with my experience. It's a low pressure loading.

Switching to a magnum primer might help - but that's "band-aiding" the problem. The better move is to increase - incrementally - the charge weight until it runs clean. W231/HP-38 is generally a clean burner. But any propellant will run sooty if it's not loaded to proper pressure.

You may get suggestions to up the charge a bit and crimp harder...

He just did

[mikld]

Just an added thought; if your rounds are accurate and you feel comfortable shooting them (recoil), then why bother? Other than a "theoretical quest", I wouldn't worry as nothing is going to happen to you or your gun if this "situation" continues. I clean my guns after each shooting session...

[Nick_C_S]

Yep. If your ammo runs sooty, so what? Good point mikld.

. . . and then OCD kicks in . . .

I can't do it. I have to clean up my sooty running ammo. I just have to. That's a major reason why I lean toward faster propellants.

But seriously, yeah. The only drawback of a sooty burn, is a sooty burn - assuming you clean your guns after you shoot them (I do).

[ShootistPRS]

WW231 and Hodgdon HP-38 are the same powder from the same bin packaged in different containers.
The use of a magnum primer in a 38 load with a light bullet might make matters worse. A magnum primer has been known to push a light bullet out of the case causing hang fires and secondary detonation effects. I can understand not wanting to change powders and HP-38 is an excellent powder for the 38 Special. What is seen as "unburnt powder" is just the ash that was not pushed out the barrel. I have experienced the same residue and I tried to collect some and light it. It has already burned, there is nothing to it but the ash left behind. It doesn't typically cause fouling or a reduction in accuracy so he should just live with the ash or switch to a heavier bullet and an appropriate load for it.

If his gun is capable of handling +P pressures then he could increase the load to see if he can find accuracy between where he is now and the +P maximum load for his bullet.

[rodfac]

ShootersPRS, Yep...good post. Soot is no detriment to a good load...Loading priorities: Safe pressure and good function, accuracy, and only then, velocity. Rod

[Nick_C_S]

But soot is no detriment to a good load.

Well, it's telling you that there wasn't sufficient pressure to get a good, crisp, complete burn. With that, the characteristic of inconsistent performance tends to come along for the ride. I consider that a detriment to a good load.

If the loader is okay with that, then the loader is okay with that.

This loader is not okay with that.

When I test a loading and it's running sooty; I either increase the charge, move to a faster propellant more suitable for the application, or scrap the project entirely.

HP-38 generally runs clean. It shouldn't be difficult for our OP to get it to do so. My 38Spl/125JHP/HP-38 recipe does.

[rodfac]

When I test a loading and it's running sooty; I either increase the charge, move to a faster propellant more suitable for the application, or scrap the project entirely.

When I test a load, I'm looking for accuracy and don't give a hoot about any soot on the outside of the case...and have found that the presence or absense of soot is not an indicator of a "good load" or a bad load for that matter. YMMV and more power to you if you find it objectionable. It's cosmetic! Just so we're talking about the same thing...accuracy is good (ie. a "good load) in my book if I get groups that hover down close to an inch and a half. Rod

[ShootistPRS]

I'm with you Rod! When I look for a good load I look at the target not the barrel or case. If I have the accuracy it's all that's needed.

[Nick_C_S]

When I test a load, I'm looking for accuracy

In a handgun load - especially 38 Special - it has been my experience that accuracy is largely a function of the bullet. If it fits the barrel, it's accurate. And powder charge has little to do with the final result of accuracy.

In my 32 years of loading 38 Special, I have only run into accuracy problems twice. And both times, I had a lousy batch of bullets. I discarded them (gave them to folks who cast).

With 38 Special, I don't even consider accuracy. It's a given. Everything I load is tac-driver accurate.

[rodfac]

In a handgun load - especially 38 Special - it has been my experience that accuracy is largely a function of the bullet. If it fits the barrel, it's accurate.

We agree on that, in spades for lead alloy, if it fits the throats with a snug push through, and is slightly larger than the groove dia., you'll most likely have good results. And like you, I've been at the loading bench since 1962...but continue to learn new tricks. Regards, Rod

[Nick_C_S]

I've been at the loading bench since 1962.

In 1962, the only "bench" I was on was the diaper changing table

Thank you for your service.

[g.willikers]

Thanks Nick for making me feel really old.
If cdoc's shooting friend objects to sooty loads, just tell him to use up the HP38 he has and replace it with a cleaner burning powder, like Clays or Titegroup.
That's what I did.

[rodfac]

Thnx Nick, and it was an honor to serve...Rod

[wpsdlrg]

Interesting. I am dealing with exactly the same issue right now. My previous (38 spl) loads, using HP-38 and 125 grain plated bullets....were in the range of 4.2 to 4.4 grains. I also found excessive residue/ unburned powder with these loads.

I have since bumped my load, with the same 125 gr. bullets, to 4.8 grains. I am no longer seeing unburned powder myself.

Incidently, 4.9 grains is, per the Hodgdon website, a maximum charge. However, even though it is listed as maximum, the published chamber pressure is in the 15,000 psi range. Normal maximum standard load pressure for 38 spl is around 17,000 psi. So, it is my belief that there is wiggle room with the maximum. I have not tested this myself....as I have not needed to do so. But, if unburned powder shows up with a load of 4.8 grains....it is indicative of low pressure.

So, the OP MIGHT want to test, CAREFULLY, charges a bit above 4.8 grains. If so, watch carefully for any signs of excess pressure. But, he might find that the unburned powder issue might go away with, say, 5.0 grains....with no ill effects. Just a suggestion.....

I can say, without fear of contradiction, that HP-38, when used in relatively large cases, like 38 spl, does NOT like light charges. HP-38 does not seem to be nearly as flexible as regards charge weights, compared to powders such as Bullseye or Titegroup. In smaller cases, such as 9mm Luger, HP-38 does not seem to exhibit the issue.